Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
KiwiScot

Gilmour

Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, Mengo said:

ūü§£forgot about Patterson right back. Now with Everton. Big Frank will start playing him soon. Dare I say it came through the ranks at rangers academy with his pal BG.

To be honest I don’t rate Patterson defensively that much, he definitely has ability going forward and plenty of room to learn, but I will be surprised if he ends up first choice at right back for either Everton or Scotland until he improves defensively a bit. 

I also pretty highly rate McGinn and McGregor in the Scotland midfield, McGregor doesn’t get much coverage as he’s opted to stay at Celtic but is a excellent player on his day. I would like to have seen him in the Premiership or abroad. 

I do really rate Gilmour when he plays for Scotland (and not just against minnows!) but McGregor and McGinn are a big part of why he plays as well as he does, because they have quality as well.

 

Edited by Jambomo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jambomo said:

To be honest I don’t rate Patterson defensively that much, he definitely has ability going forward and plenty of room to learn, but I will be surprised if he ends up first choice at right back for either Everton or Scotland until he improves defensively a bit. 

I also pretty highly rate McGinn and McGregor in the Scotland midfield, McGregor doesn’t get much coverage as he’s opted to stay at Celtic but is a excellent player on his day. I would like to have seen him in the Premiership or abroad.

 

Agree. Ability going forward for sure. Mcginn will be at one of the bigger boys next season for sure. I'm sure mcgregor could do a good job for a premier side down here.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kirku said:

I don't disagree with any of your post (reduced for brevity) but if he were the proverbial "F1 engine in a 3 series" he'd have far more impact and we'd have seen flashes of all that "horsepower" by now..

Which isn't to say it won't come in the future, but I've seen nothing to suggest it's going to come any time soon

Not so sure to be honest - we're talking about a team that was really in the middle of something of a rebuild as it departed away from using a number 10, for starters, let alone having its key creative player on a wing instead of behind the central midfielders. I think that would be a very fair point if our team had been more settled so most attacking players would be relatively used to each other. We didn't really have that with the large number of signings we made.

If we're going to continue my car analogy, I'd say the F1 engine was there, but the BMW 3-series was still being built.

Put Sörensen alongside him, then one of Lees-Melou or Normann to go box-to-box, and I think it could work quite well.

Edited by TheGunnShow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

We didn't really have that with the large number of signings we made.

While I appreciate they're different types of midfielders, would you consider Normann or PLM world-class?

I've seen more moments of genuine quality from them than I have Gilmour.

In other positions, Sargent, Rashica, and Williams have all shown more positive impact on games. All were signed at the same time.

If Gilmour were genuinely world-class, we'd have seen much more from him and he'd also be amongst the best players to ever pull on a City shirt.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

Neither are beasts but I'd imagine the pair of them will be in our central midfield in the not too distant future. Along with Gilmour in games where we won't want to use 2 up top.

Height and strength (an work rate) matters in the middle of the park, especially in smaller teams. I'd guess that Rodri, De Bruyne, Fabinho and Henderson are all 6 foot plus and you know they're all good atheletes. Normann is the closest we have to that.

You need some athletes of course, but you also need people who can play. A team for of 6ft3 lumps won't get you anywhere and certainly won't be pretty to watch. A balance is what is needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Height, strength and pace don't matter when players are of a certain quality in their respective leagues, City and Liverpool are good enough to pass around teams full of athletes who press them all over the park, we are not. 

The obsession with physicality I'd say comes more from the recruitment teams at the bottom 14 or so + West Ham of this league, not our fanbase, but we as fans have witnessed first hand how effective pace and strength can be against a relatively small, slow side like ours in our last 2 PL campaigns as we are not good enough and never will be able to afford to be technically good enough to impose our passing game on physical teams who will either press us or sit back and hit us on the counter.

We've just been taught some harsh lessons and reality has set in for most on here that we need better athletes to be competitive in this league because that's just what the PL is now. 

Gilmour is also for me not good enough to compensate for his physical and athletic weaknesses, he might be one day, but right now for me he's nowhere near it. It reads on here and from media outlets sometimes like he's a player who is playing killer balls every game despite being a weak link off the ball, but I haven't seen anything like that, he's just looked like a slightly poorer version of Rupp to me

I agree with the basis of this and in any good side you need a balance of people who can play and those who can run, jump and are physically strong. I just dont believe you should only be signing massive lumps and that is the main criteria. Even West Ham as you have mentioned have smaller technical players (Bowen, Lanzini, Fornals, Cresswell), it's about balance, which maybe we dont have the right mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Put Sörensen alongside him, then one of Lees-Melou or Normann to go box-to-box, and I think it could work quite well.

Are these the midfield combinations you’d even like to see Smith try as a priority though, TGS?

If we’re going with a 3 man central midfield then I would like to see;

Normann, Sorensen, Rupp (which I think you said were also your ideal 3 too in my ranking players thread).

After that I’d throw PLM and possibly McLean (and probably any combination of a three man midfield with those 4/5) ahead of Gilmour too.

Make it a 2 man central midfield and Gilmour probably does become bottom of the pile.

One thing that’s not been mentioned is our almost total abandonment of possession based football in recent games too - the 4-4-2 has relied upon a much more direct and physical style of play. Hard to see how Gilmour factors into that, it’s not like we’ve needed particularly well crafted balls pumped forwards is it?

I don’t know what nonsense articles said he put in MOTM performances versus Southampton and Wolves, but I can’t honestly say I recall him doing much at all in these games - nor can I say I recall any notable amounts of positivity about his performances on here.

There was genuinely no one fighting his corner on here saying why he should stay over January. He received just 5% of the votes for our best midfield 3 in that ranking players thread too, making him our lowest rated CM…

Other posts stating he would thrive with time and space, well he got that in spades at Newcastle when we had ~70% of the ball and played against 10 men for 80 minutes - which was one of the most frustrating performances I’ve watched from a Norwich team. To his credit he did put in a decent cross which led to Giannoulis’ cross for Pukki’s equaliser - but he certainly did not dominate in the way I expected given the game scenario appeared to suit him to a T.

Believe it or not, I’d like to think I don’t have an anti-Gilmour bias (yes yes I know). Case in point being Williams who I’ve slated for half the season as I wanted Giannoulis in over him, but the past few games Williams has been absolutely fantastic and is actively changing my mind. I’m open and willing for Gilmour to do the same but I can honestly say the cons outweigh the pros about 4:1 at the moment. 

I will be really disappointed at our failure to return him to Chelsea and try something in January if he doesn’t improve. In his current state we did not miss him one jot whilst he was injured (in fact I could see his inclusion hindering us before it helps us), so even if a loan replacement for him also failed we wouldn’t be losing out. So he simply has to improve, fingers crossed we start to see where he has earned all of this hype! 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gilmour issue is the hype and expectations. If no one had heard of him before he arrived the opinion of him would be quite different. He is been ok this season. The issue the hype surrounding him suggested he was Pirlo crossed with Kante  which is clearly wide of the mark. The fact that hype train has not slowed down despite his own performances. I mean the accusation that it is somehow Norwich fault that he has not shown world class ability is beyond me.

That said he is clearly trying really hard and is struggling for consistency in matches let alone across a string of matches should be no surprise for a player playing his first season of professional football. Let’s see what the rest of the season holds for him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gilmour isn't a defensive midfielder cause he can't tackle, doesn't track back and is outmuscled too easily. Hes not an attacking midfielder cause he rarely pushes forward and mainly passes sideways and backwards. 

 

I can't see what he can offer us for the rest of the season.

 

The only reason people still speculate about Gilmour is cause he comes from Chelsea. Had he come from the youth set up or we got him from a Championship club he wouldn't even be considered and would be shipped out elsewhere on loan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, kingsway said:

Gilmour isn't a defensive midfielder cause he can't tackle, doesn't track back and is outmuscled too easily. Hes not an attacking midfielder cause he rarely pushes forward and mainly passes sideways and backwards. 

 

I can't see what he can offer us for the rest of the season.

 

The only reason people still speculate about Gilmour is cause he comes from Chelsea. Had he come from the youth set up or we got him from a Championship club he wouldn't even be considered and would be shipped out elsewhere on loan.

He has looked good for Scotland too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah playing against non League standard Countries!

 

Too early in his career this season to expect him to play a decent role in Norwich's survival attempts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He‚Äôll be 33 and the Scottish will be saying ‚Äúany minute now he‚Äôs going to turn into maradona. All we need is 4 more players to play around him and make sure nobody breathes on him too hard and he falls over‚ÄĚ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd personally pick Normann, Sorensen and, based on his form over the last two games, PLM ahead of Gilmour at the moment.

Gilmour's a good player but he's not suited to a team who need to fight against relegation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why do say Gilmours a good player?

 

Doesn't tackle, not strong enough and doesn't push forward!

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Are these the midfield combinations you’d even like to see Smith try as a priority though, TGS?

If we’re going with a 3 man central midfield then I would like to see;

Normann, Sorensen, Rupp (which I think you said were also your ideal 3 too in my ranking players thread).

After that I’d throw PLM and possibly McLean (and probably any combination of a three man midfield with those 4/5) ahead of Gilmour too.

Make it a 2 man central midfield and Gilmour probably does become bottom of the pile.

One thing that’s not been mentioned is our almost total abandonment of possession based football in recent games too - the 4-4-2 has relied upon a much more direct and physical style of play. Hard to see how Gilmour factors into that, it’s not like we’ve needed particularly well crafted balls pumped forwards is it?

I don’t know what nonsense articles said he put in MOTM performances versus Southampton and Wolves, but I can’t honestly say I recall him doing much at all in these games - nor can I say I recall any notable amounts of positivity about his performances on here.

There was genuinely no one fighting his corner on here saying why he should stay over January. He received just 5% of the votes for our best midfield 3 in that ranking players thread too, making him our lowest rated CM…

Other posts stating he would thrive with time and space, well he got that in spades at Newcastle when we had ~70% of the ball and played against 10 men for 80 minutes - which was one of the most frustrating performances I’ve watched from a Norwich team. To his credit he did put in a decent cross which led to Giannoulis’ cross for Pukki’s equaliser - but he certainly did not dominate in the way I expected given the game scenario appeared to suit him to a T.

Believe it or not, I’d like to think I don’t have an anti-Gilmour bias (yes yes I know). Case in point being Williams who I’ve slated for half the season as I wanted Giannoulis in over him, but the past few games Williams has been absolutely fantastic and is actively changing my mind. I’m open and willing for Gilmour to do the same but I can honestly say the cons outweigh the pros about 4:1 at the moment. 

I will be really disappointed at our failure to return him to Chelsea and try something in January if he doesn’t improve. In his current state we did not miss him one jot whilst he was injured (in fact I could see his inclusion hindering us before it helps us), so even if a loan replacement for him also failed we wouldn’t be losing out. So he simply has to improve, fingers crossed we start to see where he has earned all of this hype! 

 

That's the thing, IF Gilmour is to work well with the players we've got, that's the combination that I think would work best. And yes, that was the combination I picked in your poll as so far I think they have been our best three, and I've hardly been fighting his corner based on his performances so far. At the same time, I doubt many were fighting Harry Kane's corner either during his time on loan with us in a lower division, and look what happened in terms of his development.

We're essentially struggling to keep the ball away from our goal to provide Gilmour with more space in which to work, and he's forever in the position of trying to get the ball rather than being on it. This isn't necessarily pure possession football, but our midfield in particular was being pulled this way and that as in the early days the ball simply was not sticking up top as our team was nowhere near gelling (amongst other things). Worse still, we don't really have many tacklers / interceptors in the middle of the park, Normann and Sörensen are the closest and it's no surprise that we had flashes of inspiration when Normann was playing even if he tried a lot of risky balls and gave away possession far more as a result, and looked more solid when not in possession when Sörensen was there. We looked shaky for some time against Watford when Lungi went off injured and tbh, were on the back foot after that until Sarge stuck in that legendary first goal.

As for how Gilmour can factor into a formation where we're playing a more direct and physical style, I'd say that Gilmour seems to like a low channel pass and particularly in the pre-season friendlies, racked up several dangerous ones. There was a gorgeous one against Gillingham, I think Giannoulis got on the end of it and Rupp scored. You'd think an overlapping full-back or a winger would enjoy seeing a fair few of those come up, especially when playing on the counter and with the pace we've got with the likes of Rashica and Placheta, or strength with Sargent.

But for a deep-lying playmaker like Gilmour to work at his best, you need a functioning attacking unit that can force the opposing team onto the back foot and push them back into their own half. You also need a midfield/defence that's able to give him the ball and ensure space for him to find and work in. We've not had either until arguably the last two games simply as teams have pressed the hell out of us.

That's also why I say he doesn't suit our team as it stands. No wonder he's not looked as good as he can do.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks like Gilmour will start as the social media team have used him in their match day post on FB this morning. That's usually an indication. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Looks like Gilmour will start as the social media team have used him in their match day post on FB this morning. That's usually an indication. 

 

2 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

If social media pages are to bealived hes set to start today.

It's a real nice image too and we are in our beautiful black kit too

FKwIS0RXoAIT3j0?format=jpg&name=small

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's also why I say he doesn't suit our team as it stands. No wonder he's not looked as good as he can do.

He's not world-class though, is he?

In exactly the same way Harry Kane wasn't anywhere close to it for Norwich.

I guess I just can't stand the narrative that he's this fantastic player who's head and shoulders above all the rest of our players and that little old Norwich are horrendously misusing a generational talent.

He isn't and we aren't.

Edited by kirku

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, kirku said:

He's not world-class though, is he?

In exactly the same way Harry Kane wasn't anywhere close to it for Norwich.

Gimour is most certainly not world class, no. He wouldn't be here on loan if he were for starters.

I believe he is a bit better than he's shown here but he's not a significantly better player than the base average in our squad.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, kirku said:

He's not world-class though, is he?

In exactly the same way Harry Kane wasn't anywhere close to it for Norwich.

I guess I just can't stand the narrative that he's this fantastic player who's head and shoulders above all the rest of our players and that little old Norwich are horrendously misusing a generational talent.

He isn't and we aren't.

Kirku. Take it easy man . You'll give yourself a f**King heart attack. He's 20 years old ffs. No he's not world class. He's just starting his journey.  If he has a good game then fine if not you can have another meltdown. 

He's no better and no worse than players around about him. Just happens yes the press are very guilty.of cherry picking certain players. Mind you so are so many posters on here. Relax and enjoy the game.

He looks good in that strip thoughūüôÉ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like I've done this to death, but I'll give it one more try... 

There are multiple facets to playing professional football and, to be able to feature at the highest level, you need to have a decent standard across most of the basic attributes.

Certain deficiencies can be accommodated depending on what your strengths are and the overall responsibility your position has in the team. Limited physical strength and size can be forgiven if you have pace and skill. A lack of pace can be mitigated by a decent ability to read the game and anticipate (or the opposite in the case of Kyle Walker).

Ultimately it comes down to the positives vs the negatives you bring to the team. Unfortunately, Billy has shown only the occasional glimpse of attacking spark without ever positively influencing the outcome of a game. That gives him very little in the way of credit for the times when he lets us down. 

And the negatives really stack up. It might not be obvious, but there's a fundamental responsibility as a central midfielder to read the game, fill the gaps, cut off the angles, cover the runs etc. It's not so much about putting in tackles and blocks as it is about positioning and awareness. This is where Gilmour really lacks. 

With a bit of extra pace or strength, you can recover from a positional mistakes. Sadly, with Billy's physique, he doesn't have the tools to dig himself out of a hole. Once his man gets goal side, you virtually never see him recover.

If he was getting goals and assists, or even creating decent openings then we could probably be more accepting of his mistakes. Without that, on balance, he is always going to be more of a liability than an asset. 

Edited by Petriix
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kirku said:

He's not world-class though, is he?

In exactly the same way Harry Kane wasn't anywhere close to it for Norwich.

I guess I just can't stand the narrative that he's this fantastic player who's head and shoulders above all the rest of our players and that little old Norwich are horrendously misusing a generational talent.

He isn't and we aren't.

He's definitely got the potential to be. I think that's pretty clear from his matches before joining us, and some of the skills he has. However, our team is not built to get the best out of him. I think that's also very clear.

Edited by TheGunnShow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, Mengo said:

Kirku. Take it easy man . You'll give yourself a f**King heart attack. He's 20 years old ffs. No he's not world class. He's just starting his journey.  If he has a good game then fine if not you can have another meltdown. 

He's no better and no worse than players around about him. Just happens yes the press are very guilty.of cherry picking certain players. Mind you so are so many posters on here. Relax and enjoy the game.

He looks good in that strip thoughūüôÉ

I think you're reading this wrong - it's just a lively debate, not a "meltdown". 

I agree with your assessment that he's no better or worse than the rest of the players in a squad that has recently been labelled "one of the worst in PL history", though.

If he plays today, I hope he gets 8 assists and proves me thoroughly wrong..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, kirku said:

How does that make him world-class? An MOTM performance in an admittedly highly charged yet really quite turgid match

I didn't say he was world class, I was simply replying to the assertion "Other than "people say he's good", I'm struggling to see evidence to suggest that he's decent, never mind good. Ever."

That's clear evidence, that's all. He's got bags of potential, to what extent he fulfils it is another matter entirely.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Yes but apart from that Wolfie........

Reminds me of Monty Python and "What have the Roman's given us...." . 

Man of the match v Austria away (last 16 of the euros), man of the match v Denmark at home (semis at the euros)

next…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Man of the match v Austria away (last 16 of the euros), man of the match v Denmark at home (semis at the euros)

next…

Yes - but apart from that ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, breeks_mctavish said:

Man of the match v Austria away (last 16 of the euros), man of the match v Denmark at home (semis at the euros)

next…

International football is often more technical than the Premier League. Duda - arguably a not dissimilar player to Gilmour - couldn't cope with the EPL but had a good Euro finals for Slovakia.

Edited by PurpleCanary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...