Patrick Roberts

[hertfordyellow 460]

Man City have let him go for a free to League One Sunderland. To not even find a Championship club is surprising. For some reason I thought he was still a young player but he is 24 now. There were some who wanted Farke to play him more but I think we can agree now, he wasn't at that level and Man City wasted their money.

[canarydan23 4,060]

15 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Man City have let him go for a free to League One Sunderland. To not even find a Championship club is surprising. For some reason I thought he was still a young player but he is 24 now. There were some who wanted Farke to play him more but I think we can agree now, he wasn't at that level and Man City wasted their money.

To be honest, I was one who was excited by him. I follow Celtic and he was great for them so I had high hopes.

I've now learnt that how someone performs in the SPL is no barometer. I was gutted when we signed Pukki because having seem him at Celtic I thought he was a total drip. Admittedly he was played out wide a lot of the time, but any match I watched him in he looked poor. But then look what happened to him.

[Paint Me Yellow 200]

He's good but his career highlight has to be playing the T1000 in Terminator 2.

[Yellow Wal 314]

Another example of a big club making the most of the loan system.

"We're not sure about him, so we'll loan him out and sees how he does, and get a loan fee for him. If he improves and does well, we'll have him back, if not we will see if we can get a cash return on him. And if everything else fails we'll just have to let him go."

Yet again poorer clubs helping out the rich ones.

[Aggy 752]

19 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

Another example of a big club making the most of the loan system.

"We're not sure about him, so we'll loan him out and sees how he does, and get a loan fee for him. If he improves and does well, we'll have him back, if not we will see if we can get a cash return on him. And if everything else fails we'll just have to let him go."

Yet again poorer clubs helping out the rich ones.

Except out of this, Sunderland have got a player on a free who has been training with some of the best facilities and players in the world and also has a few years of first team experience under his belt. And in the meantime, a few clubs got a decent enough player for a fraction of the cost they would have needed to pay to bring someone equivalent in for a permanent transfer fee and on a three year contract.

The alternative is that the player starts off at a league one club, doesn’t get the same level of training /facilities, is a worse player for it, possibly doesn’t get the same opportunity, doesn’t even cut it at league one level, the league one club have invested money on his training and then let him go for peanuts to a league two side. 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,677]

Had a stonkingly poor attitude according to rumours while here with us, only wanting to train by himself and travel by himself, had very much a big **** Billy 'I'm from a massive club you better treat me good' attitude to him and all that

Needless to say Farke did not take kindly to him and so he did not play for us

Is it really a wonder his career has fallen?

[king canary 7,580]

10 minutes ago, Aggy said:

Except out of this, Sunderland have got a player on a free who has been training with some of the best facilities and players in the world and also has a few years of first team experience under his belt. And in the meantime, a few clubs got a decent enough player for a fraction of the cost they would have needed to pay to bring someone equivalent in for a permanent transfer fee and on a three year contract.

The alternative is that the player starts off at a league one club, doesn’t get the same level of training /facilities, is a worse player for it, possibly doesn’t get the same opportunity, doesn’t even cut it at league one level, the league one club have invested money on his training and then let him go for peanuts to a league two side. 

Not really.

Roberts was playing for Fulham and had broken into the first team aged 18 and looked like an excellent young talent until this move totally stalled his career. Between the age of 18 and 24 he's played for 7 different teams on loan, most of which have zero skin in the game of developing him as a player longer term. He likely spent about 6 months on those 6 years training with the best players and at the best facilities, and the rest just jumping from club to clubin order to collect loan fees for Man City.

Its a horrible business model and one that actively hurts players development.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

2 hours ago, Yellow Wal said:

Another example of a big club making the most of the loan system.

"We're not sure about him, so we'll loan him out and sees how he does, and get a loan fee for him. If he improves and does well, we'll have him back, if not we will see if we can get a cash return on him. And if everything else fails we'll just have to let him go."

Yet again poorer clubs helping out the rich ones.

*cough*
 

Todd Cantwell

 

*cough*

[Tetteys Jig 830]

23 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not really.

Roberts was playing for Fulham and had broken into the first team aged 18 and looked like an excellent young talent until this move totally stalled his career. Between the age of 18 and 24 he's played for 7 different teams on loan, most of which have zero skin in the game of developing him as a player longer term. He likely spent about 6 months on those 6 years training with the best players and at the best facilities, and the rest just jumping from club to clubin order to collect loan fees for Man City.

Its a horrible business model and one that actively hurts players development.

I tend to side with this. Is it any wonder many of the new wave of Chelsea young players have sacked them off for permenant first team football (Livremento, Lamptey spring to mind).

I'd qualify this by saying the standard to become a regular Chelsea player is way higher than say us. Mount needed to go out on loan and gain experience but he's clearly good enough for Chelsea and they didn't want to lose him permenantly.

Even with us, do you think Farke would have been as brave with Aarons if we'd been a prem side in his breakout season unless he was forced with an injury crisis?

[Midlands Yellow 3,941]

Around the same age as Todd then and the parallels don’t stop there. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Midlands Yellow

[Yellow Wal 314]

20 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

*cough*
 

Todd Cantwell

 

*cough*

For every Todd Cantwell there's another five  to ten young players who are loaned here, there and everywhere and who are then discarded. 

Whatever was wrong with clubs developing their own players in reserve teams? The players were at their own clubs, an eye could easily be kept on their progress both on and off the pitch, good assessments could be made and their coaching and training was that of their own club. As well as this no one club could have so many players that they could get ten times more than they need in the hope of finding one gem. Other clubs would also have a chance.

The playing field used to be level.

[glory.win or die. 270]

Don't Sunderland have Alex Pritchard Too?

At that level they should both be unstoppable at times, if they get their heads right and work hard

[HertsCanary93 222]

At 24, there is still plenty of time for him to find his feet and get his career back on track. He's shown he has talent and it didn't seem like he had an attitude problem here (that I can remember)

As others have said, it can be tough for these players to be loaned out to a new club every 6months just so the parent team can pocket loan fees. Sometimes it just takes signing a permanent deal somewhere to properly get a career path going.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

53 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

For every Todd Cantwell there's another five  to ten young players who are loaned here, there and everywhere and who are then discarded. 

Whatever was wrong with clubs developing their own players in reserve teams? The players were at their own clubs, an eye could easily be kept on their progress both on and off the pitch, good assessments could be made and their coaching and training was that of their own club. As well as this no one club could have so many players that they could get ten times more than they need in the hope of finding one gem. Other clubs would also have a chance.

The playing field used to be level.

Five to ten? If we loan out 5 players who make it, are there 50 who don’t? Seems high to me. But whatever, how could it work better If we kept all young players within the U21 and U23 teams?

[king canary 7,580]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

*cough*
 

Todd Cantwell

 

*cough*

Cantwell isn't really comparable to the situation with Roberts and the bastardisation of the loan system happening with clubs like Chelsea and Man City.

Cantwell is an example of the loan system working- a club develops a player, think he has the ability to get into the first team so loans him out for some final polish. That is what the system is for.

Then you have clubs like Chelsea and Man City who hoover up players from all over the world that they have no intention of really playing but instead farm them out on loan to collect loan fees and maybe sell them for a profit. It is essentially the footballer equivalent of house flipping. Chelsea had a staggering 37 players out on loan at one point. You just have to look at players like Michael Hector to see how it works.

I saw a stat recently that of the 28 players Man City have sold for a profit in the past 7 years 18 never played a game for them. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

5 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

Man City have let him go for a free to League One Sunderland. To not even find a Championship club is surprising. For some reason I thought he was still a young player but he is 24 now. There were some who wanted Farke to play him more but I think we can agree now, he wasn't at that level and Man City wasted their money.

Just been massively over rated somewhere down the line, a bit like John Bostock, Will Keane, and all sorts of others who people realise actually aren't all that good. 

As for...

"For some reason I thought he was still a young player but he is 24 now"

Be able to say that about Todd Cantwell in a month, and probably much of the rest.

[Nuff Said 5,089]

41 minutes ago, king canary said:

Cantwell isn't really comparable to the situation with Roberts and the bastardisation of the loan system happening with clubs like Chelsea and Man City.

Cantwell is an example of the loan system working- a club develops a player, think he has the ability to get into the first team so loans him out for some final polish. That is what the system is for.

Then you have clubs like Chelsea and Man City who hoover up players from all over the world that they have no intention of really playing but instead farm them out on loan to collect loan fees and maybe sell them for a profit. It is essentially the footballer equivalent of house flipping. Chelsea had a staggering 37 players out on loan at one point. You just have to look at players like Michael Hector to see how it works.

I saw a stat recently that of the 28 players Man City have sold for a profit in the past 7 years 18 never played a game for them. 

Aren’t we guilty of that too? Raggett, Sinani, Soto…

[king canary 7,580]

Just now, Nuff Said said:

Aren’t we guilty of that too? Raggett, Sinani, Soto…

We are and if you look back you'll see I've made comments about it in the past. I really don't like it. 

But we're not on the scale of some of the worst offenders.

 

[Yellow Wal 314]

8 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Aren’t we guilty of that too? Raggett, Sinani, Soto…

It's a case of "If you can't beat them, join them" but we are in no position to compete in the same way and, to be fair, we are sifting through the dregs in case a diamond fell through as well.

The whole loan system is now corrupt with the richest clubs taking advantage of lesser clubs and making massive profits either by selling players on or by unearthing a gem amongst the multitudes of youngsters they take on.

The loan system is now worlds away from what it was originally brought in for, namely to help the lesser clubs.

The supporters of massive clubs of the past who have fallen on hard times better get used to the fact that, unless they can find a Newcastle-like benefactor, there is no way back. Sunderland, Sheffield Wednesday, Bolton, Portsmouth etc. who all have wonderful histories are doomed to mediocrity.

Until clubs stop loaning players from the top clubs, trying to get a quick fix, the situation will not change.

It was once a level playing field.

[Michael Starr 519]

He's not just too good for us, he's too good for Man City. He probably tore up his contract whilst kissing the gaffers mother.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

4 hours ago, king canary said:

We are and if you look back you'll see I've made comments about it in the past. I really don't like it. 

But we're not on the scale of some of the worst offenders.

 

Its just the scale of our respective economies,  and the  economies of our respective scales. We'd  do more if we had the largesse..00

[chicken 2,604]

12 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Had a stonkingly poor attitude according to rumours while here with us, only wanting to train by himself and travel by himself, had very much a big **** Billy 'I'm from a massive club you better treat me good' attitude to him and all that

Needless to say Farke did not take kindly to him and so he did not play for us

Is it really a wonder his career has fallen?

I mean, some of the sources you get info from seem really dodgy IMHO.

We had Marcus Edwards on loan from Spurs. Webber and Farke made it pretty clear his attitude towards training meant he was some way off getting into the team. And they weren't scared to say so.

With Patrick Roberts, his fitness was questioned when he first arrived and I seem to remember the reason for this being that he had hardly played much football in the previous couple of seasons, which seems accurate looking at his stats:
https://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=75028

Then both Webber and Farke said the form of Cantwell, which had surprised them, had kept him out of the side and by January, he wanted to go and get regular football and was allowed to have his loan cancelled.

I don't see anything from them about attitude when they have been quite happy to identify that both before he arrived and after. Why lie about him to protect him? At the end of the day, I'd be frustrated not to get game time, perhaps he grew fed up pushing hard and seeing the likes of Buendia, Hernandez and Cantwell all putting in performances when called upon. And he wasn't as strong as any of them either, physically. 

[shefcanary 2,388]

8 hours ago, chicken said:

I mean, some of the sources you get info from seem really dodgy IMHO.

We had Marcus Edwards on loan from Spurs. Webber and Farke made it pretty clear his attitude towards training meant he was some way off getting into the team. And they weren't scared to say so.

With Patrick Roberts, his fitness was questioned when he first arrived and I seem to remember the reason for this being that he had hardly played much football in the previous couple of seasons, which seems accurate looking at his stats:
https://www.soccerbase.com/players/player.sd?player_id=75028

Then both Webber and Farke said the form of Cantwell, which had surprised them, had kept him out of the side and by January, he wanted to go and get regular football and was allowed to have his loan cancelled.

I don't see anything from them about attitude when they have been quite happy to identify that both before he arrived and after. Why lie about him to protect him? At the end of the day, I'd be frustrated not to get game time, perhaps he grew fed up pushing hard and seeing the likes of Buendia, Hernandez and Cantwell all putting in performances when called upon. And he wasn't as strong as any of them either, physically. 

Yeah, my memory is that he made a lot of friends at the club in his short time here, he continues to interact heavily with our players on social media.  That doesn't strike me as a player with a bad attitude, just a guy who missed the boat as he wasn't getting game time at a crucial period in his career.

Trolling of a Cantwell kind from Cambridge!

[Mason 47 1,373]

Seem to remember a lot of the ire about bad attitude came from his brother celebrating our relegation at the end of the season. Guilty by association, I think. 

 

[sgncfc 1,221]

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story. Roberts was signed for £12m by City from Fulham, so it's unlikely they've ever made any sort of profit on him. He went on loan to Celtic and had a very successful season and a half helping them win two titles. Selected for England U19s. He was also named MOM in a Champions League game against his parent club. He then got a serious injury (hamstring?) and had some months out. 

Perhaps he was never quite the same player, but he has certainly never hit those heights since. I can't find anything anywhere about a supposed "bad attitude". Quite the reverse. He was never really given an opportunity at Norwich because Cantwell took his position when he wasn't yet fit enough to compete properly.

Seems like a good move to me, a chance to play regularly at a slightly lower level, build up again. Good luck to him.

[mrD66M 99]

On 24/01/2022 at 14:58, king canary said:

Cantwell isn't really comparable to the situation with Roberts and the bastardisation of the loan system happening with clubs like Chelsea and Man City.

Cantwell is an example of the loan system working- a club develops a player, think he has the ability to get into the first team so loans him out for some final polish. That is what the system is for.

Then you have clubs like Chelsea and Man City who hoover up players from all over the world that they have no intention of really playing but instead farm them out on loan to collect loan fees and maybe sell them for a profit. It is essentially the footballer equivalent of house flipping. Chelsea had a staggering 37 players out on loan at one point. You just have to look at players like Michael Hector to see how it works.

I saw a stat recently that of the 28 players Man City have sold for a profit in the past 7 years 18 never played a game for them. 

Excellent comment. To be honest, a club that has more than a match day squad on loan should have some sort of restrictions on signing new players IMO.. either release them or play them.

[Baracouda 47]

On 24/01/2022 at 14:58, king canary said:

Cantwell isn't really comparable to the situation with Roberts and the bastardisation of the loan system happening with clubs like Chelsea and Man City.

Cantwell is an example of the loan system working- a club develops a player, think he has the ability to get into the first team so loans him out for some final polish. That is what the system is for.

Then you have clubs like Chelsea and Man City who hoover up players from all over the world that they have no intention of really playing but instead farm them out on loan to collect loan fees and maybe sell them for a profit. It is essentially the footballer equivalent of house flipping. Chelsea had a staggering 37 players out on loan at one point. You just have to look at players like Michael Hector to see how it works.

I saw a stat recently that of the 28 players Man City have sold for a profit in the past 7 years 18 never played a game for them. 

I think the only reason this has happened, is the homegrown rule... x number to come through academy... so you buy tons of very good footballers, who probably would have been very successful had they developed naturally through the footballing systems. They clearly signed for a reason guessing they were playing well for 'lesser' clubs. They stay at Man City/Chelsea for a minimum of 3 years to fulfil the homegrown rule who in turn hope one or two come good.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Baracouda

[Scottlarock 3]

On 24/01/2022 at 11:04, Yellow Wal said:

Another example of a big club making the most of the loan system.

"We're not sure about him, so we'll loan him out and sees how he does, and get a loan fee for him. If he improves and does well, we'll have him back, if not we will see if we can get a cash return on him. And if everything else fails we'll just have to let him go."

Yet again poorer clubs helping out the rich ones.

Eh? we have 18 players out on loan and a ft loans manager. We have a more sophisticated loan system than a lot of Premier league clubs and indeed has been credited for saving the club more than once.

[Yellow Wal 314]

4 hours ago, Scottlarock said:

Eh? we have 18 players out on loan and a ft loans manager. We have a more sophisticated loan system than a lot of Premier league clubs and indeed has been credited for saving the club more than once.

Yes, but we are still new at this game and whilst we deal in thousands the big boys deal in millions. They also have a much more comprehensive machine to suck up as many promising young players as possible, denying them to other clubs, and selling them or having them developed for their own benefit.

[Scottlarock 3]

28 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

Yes, but we are still new at this game and whilst we deal in thousands the big boys deal in millions. They also have a much more comprehensive machine to suck up as many promising young players as possible, denying them to other clubs, and selling them or having them developed for their own benefit.

No mate.....we deal in millions. We buy lower league youngsters for millions (or for as little as possible), loan them out and then sell them for for even more millions eventually. In this regard we are no different from other Premier league clubs, in fact, we are better than most of them at it....because we have to be.