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cambridgeshire canary

So was this a foul?

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9 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

No he's not. He's wrong. Pushes in the back are always a foul.

Looks to me like some fans have gone over-dramatic. Referee has got that one right and he clearly saw it straight away.

Look forward to seeing some other qualified referees comment on this.

 

It's unlike you to defend shocking performances by referees 😉

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10 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not when running at pace or sprinting, you can't. 

That is NOT a dive. You could possibly argue he lost balance easily, but when you're sprinting it doesn't take that much to put someone off balance, especially if that contact is from behind you, which it was in this case.

The rest of that post is overdramatic in the extreme.

 

You said Silva didn't dive. From that moment on I can't take you calling anyone overdramatic seriously.

What is happening to football fans? The EPL would be so proud of you all.

I haven't seen you answer yet, but I assume you think we got lucky with our first on Friday? After all, Pukki's hand touched the defender's back and it only takes the slightest touch when running at speed to fall over, or something like that.

Edited by canarydan23

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21 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

It's unlike you to defend shocking performances by referees 😉

It's clear that some people's inate desire to be contrarian is so deep-rooted that they can ignore logic or even, in this case, the evidence of their own eyes.

Edited by canarydan23

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10 hours ago, Greavsy said:

A push is the back is a foul. 

That wasn't a push in the back. 

Grant Hanley would have done exactly the same as Silva, Kane fell for it. 

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8 hours ago, Nexus_Canary said:

Kane makes contact with Silva. If Silva made a meal of it or not is another matter but for sake of argument it is a foul yes.

This attitude is the problem. Kane puts his hand out and touches the defender, but does not push him. The defender makes it look like a push.  The same as Samir did with Pukki.    As @The Great Mass Debater says, it is just defenders being cute in going down at the slightest touch - like attackers have been doing for years. It is the latest sign of cheating that exists in football.

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10 hours ago, Greavsy said:

A push is the back is a foul. 

That wasn't a push in the back. 

Yes, you're right. It was someone putting their hand out to steady themselves, expecting a challenge from the defender. The defender, who instinctively knew Kane had positional advantage over him, did the only thing he could think of to rescue the situation - try to make it look as if Kane had fouled him.  Samir tried it with Pukki, thankfully the ref didn't fall for it. 

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1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

You said Silva didn't dive. From that moment on I can't take you calling anyone overdramatic seriously.

What is happening to football fans? The EPL would be so proud of you all.

I haven't seen you answer yet, but I assume you think we got lucky with our first on Friday? After all, Pukki's hand touched the defender's back and it only takes the slightest touch when running at speed to fall over, or something like that.

The comparison with Pukki is moot as they are totally different types of collision. Pukki and Samir started competing side-on for starters and did so over several yards, Kane only pushed Silva from behind. So as for the Pukki case, I do think it was one of those where no matter what the referee gave, VAR would not overturn it as it's not a blatant error, so think of it as an umpire's call.

But the fact that started side-on probably gave Pukki enough leeway with the referee. Kane was behind Silva at all times, put his hand in Silva's back, gave him a nudge when sprinting - classic and blatant case of just levering a player away.

Tierney's right here, no question.

 

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Just now, TheGunnShow said:

The comparison with Pukki is moot as they are totally different types of collision. Pukki and Samir started competing side-on for starters and did so over several yards, Kane only pushed Silva from behind. So as for the Pukki case, I do think it was one of those where no matter what the referee gave, VAR would not overturn it as it's not a blatant error, so think of it as an umpire's call.

But the fact that started side-on probably gave Pukki enough leeway with the referee. Kane was behind Silva at all times, put his hand in Silva's back, gave him a nudge when sprinting - classic and blatant case of just levering a player away.

Tierney's right here, no question.

 

Do you want to buy a bridge?

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Do you want to buy a bridge?

Do you want to buy a clue?

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2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Do you want to buy a clue?

Careful, that was so harsh it nearly made me fall 6 feet forwards onto my face.

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Jesus Gunny, I like a lot of what you post, but you seem to turn into someone who loses all sense of reality when talking refereeing decisions, just read back what you're posting here, it's utter nonsense. 

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Careful, that was so harsh it nearly made me fall 6 feet forwards onto my face.

Fair play Dan, I chuckled at that one! 😄 

 

1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Jesus Gunny, I like a lot of what you post, but you seem to turn into someone who loses all sense of reality when talking refereeing decisions, just read back what you're posting here, it's utter nonsense. 

Sorry Ken, no dice here - but I will usually join in those discussions hard as someone who was an active referee in junior football for nearly ten years, still does bail out a local girls' team on occasion due to the shortage of active officials, and got as far as refereeing county finals at that level. In other words, I knew what I was doing.

I used to dispute refereeing decisions on the regular before I learned to referee, then I realised I didn't know the half of it. If you don't like my stance in these cases then that's fine, just bear in mind I speak from considerable experience at grassroots level, that's all.

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Having played grassroots level football for 30 years, being a ref at that level is no claim to knowledge in my experience 😉. I always appreciate those who do the role but 90% barely know the rules let alone understand the game. 

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1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Having played grassroots level football for 30 years, being a ref at that level is no claim to knowledge in my experience 😉. I always appreciate those who do the role but 90% barely know the rules let alone understand the game. 

Can say the same for the players! 😉

There's a different argument on rule application by referees (I'd argue that grassroots referees are far more likely to bend the rules) at that level, but that's a different discussion entirely.

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2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sorry Ken, no dice here - but I will usually join in those discussions hard as someone who was an active referee in junior football for nearly ten years, still does bail out a local girls' team on occasion due to the shortage of active officials, and got as far as refereeing county finals at that level. In other words, I knew what I was doing.

I used to dispute refereeing decisions on the regular before I learned to referee, then I realised I didn't know the half of it. If you don't like my stance in these cases then that's fine, just bear in mind I speak from considerable experience at grassroots level, that's all.

Ah, so your judgement is clouded by the instinctive sympathy you have for the people making the decisions. I knew there had to be a rational explanation for your bizarre position on this one.

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Ah, so your judgement is clouded by the instinctive sympathy you have for the people making the decisions. I knew there had to be a rational explanation for your bizarre position on this one.

I think you wrote "speaking from practical experience of making such decisions on the regular" incorrectly. About the only thing I haven't done in football is coach or physio. Played (and still do), managed, refereed (and still do occasionally, in fact I had three junior matches yesterday), so I don't just wear a refereeing hat.

The funny thing is, there is a part where I would agree with your notion that football is getting a bit too non-contact, but it's not in the level of contact for fouls, it's in how cards are being dished out for contact fouls and I would say there is a decent argument in referees, particularly at higher levels, being quite micromanaged by assessors in giving out cards. Classic example for us as Canaries, the Giannoulis red card vs. Bournemouth (you'll find I essentially understood why the ref gave that, but disagreed with the frame-by-frame refereeing that led to the card).

 

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17 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I think you wrote "speaking from practical experience of making such decisions on the regular" incorrectly. About the only thing I haven't done in football is coach or physio. Played (and still do), managed, refereed (and still do occasionally, in fact I had three junior matches yesterday), so I don't just wear a refereeing hat.

The funny thing is, there is a part where I would agree with your notion that football is getting a bit too non-contact, but it's not in the level of contact for fouls, it's in how cards are being dished out for contact fouls and I would say there is a decent argument in referees, particularly at higher levels, being quite micromanaged by assessors in giving out cards. Classic example for us as Canaries, the Giannoulis red card vs. Bournemouth (you'll find I essentially understood why the ref gave that, but disagreed with the frame-by-frame refereeing that led to the card).

I coach and manage a grassroots team. Fortunately we have a Dad who does the majority of the refereeing but I have occasionally had to ref matches and regularly referee training games. That experience makes me less sympathetic to these complete morons incapable of making decisions even with the benefit of video footage. Essentially, I regularly see better refereeing from unqualified Dads on a Saturday morning than I see from "professionals" paid £70,000 a year. Funnily enough, I actually texted our opposition coach Saturday afternoon asking him to pass on my compliments for the performance of the young lad who reffed our game that morning. And then I started watching professional football later in the weekend and the standard of officiating I had become accustomed to that Saturday morning skydived.

Edited by canarydan23

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7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I coach and manage a grassroots team. Fortunately we have a Dad who does the majority of the refereeing but I have occasionally had to ref matches and regularly referee training games. That experience makes me less sympathetic to these complete morons incapable of making decisions even with the benefit of video footage. Essentially, I regularly see better refereeing from unqualified Dads on a Saturday morning than I see from "professionals" paid £70,000 a year. Funnily enough, I actually texted our opposition coach Saturday afternoon asking him to pass on my compliments for the performance of the young lad who reffed our game that morning. And then I started watching professional football later in the weekend and the standard of officiating I had become accustomed to that Saturday morning skydived.

Fundamentally, that's a complaint about frame-by-frame officiating when it comes to VAR (and particularly the complications that VAR provides). Tangential, but fundamentally different issue. My stance on the frame-by-frame element of it is pretty well documented in this forum - and indeed pretty critical for that matter. 

Interesting that it's made you less sympathetic, I found I gained a whole new respect for them after being a right royal pain in the %%%% before learning the Laws. There is probably a caveat that with the youngest of juniors (up to around U12s, I'd say) the pace really isn't quick so a reasonably fit adult in charge should have a good view of the action at practically all times, and an experienced referee down at that age group really should get their positioning spot on even for offsides in most cases.

Good to hear about compliments to young refs though. A lot do some pretty good work but it gets missed amongst the helicopter parents who howl at the slightest perceived schnitzer that often isn't.

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2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Good to hear about compliments to young refs though.

What can I say, I know good reffing when I see it! And I'm of the opinion that people (myself included) are quick to complain and/or moan when they see something they don't like but keep schtum when things impress them. One of my New Year's Resolutions is to change that (the second bit, I have no intention to stop moaning about things that are crap).

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

What can I say, I know good reffing when I see it! And I'm of the opinion that people (myself included) are quick to complain and/or moan when they see something they don't like but keep schtum when things impress them. One of my New Year's Resolutions is to change that (the second bit, I have no intention to stop moaning about things that are crap).

I dunno about that first bit 😉  but we're in absolutely full agreement re. the bit in bold, that is most certainly a social phenomenon that's not really to our benefit, IMO. Back to junior referees, they do need plenty of encouragement as there's a lot of stress/concentration involved.

Personally I can't moan, particularly after that U15s game yesterday. The away team parents were basically saying things like "best official we've seen in years" and "why are you not in Ormskirk" (they were from Town Green, so very near Ormskirk, hence that question). The home team always ask me to do their games when my own playing commitments allow me to.

Should be a smashing Sunday next week, as my vets side are actually playing on their home patch in Blackrod after the junior games are done. Fifteen-mile bike ride there and back, ref a junior game or two, then change my kit and get playing. Sounds like a bloody good soccer Sunday to me. 😄

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The fact that there are people on both sides of this shows how difficult a decision it is. To me, Kane sees where the ball is being played and pushes off the defender (however lightly) to get separation. The defender is running, feels the touch and goes down. If it was the defender pushing Kane to be able to clear it then is it a penalty? As has been said defenders are now copying forwards to a certain extent. Personally I think if it was Kane being pushed he would have ended up somewhere in row Z but that's a different conversation. 

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How you stop it with all the money around in the game and everyone looking for that tiny advantage, I don't know. But VAR is NOT the solution in it's current guise. My thought is the ref should make the decision how HE sees it on the field and VAR should only communicate with the ref if it is CLEAR and OBVIOUS. They should say have a look, but it should be the Ref that looks and makes the decision. If there is not a clear and obvious reason to look, don't. And the whole taking lots of time, if he can't make a decision in 30 seconds then it's not clear and obvious and the refs decision stands.

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Never a foul. Silva knows he is out of position, he has run ahead of the ball. What can he hope for? A touch, not a shove, in the back. Signal the dive to the floor.

Just like the Jota penalty, if VAR has to look at it so many times then the situation is not clear cut. The referee gets one look at normal speed.

VAR should just be used for offside at most. It is accurate and definitive. Fouls, hand ball are all subjective and lets just leave to the ref to make a subjective decision.

Personally, I think its a piece of junk that has no place in the game.

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45 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Never a foul. Silva knows he is out of position, he has run ahead of the ball. What can he hope for? A touch, not a shove, in the back. Signal the dive to the floor.

Just like the Jota penalty, if VAR has to look at it so many times then the situation is not clear cut. The referee gets one look at normal speed.

VAR should just be used for offside at most. It is accurate and definitive. Fouls, hand ball are all subjective and lets just leave to the ref to make a subjective decision.

Personally, I think its a piece of junk that has no place in the game.

Personally, I think its a piece of junk that has no place in the game. I agree. Utter Junk. Goal line tech (brilliant and needed) . VAR is an almighty costly joke. 

The use of the Video Assistant Referee in the Premier League has totally failed. It gets as many (if not more) decisions wrong than before its use. 

Football supporters were misled, and told VAR would be used only in "clear and obvious" circumstances. We have seen thus far, that this is simply not the case. 

The paying supporters in the stadiums have been left bewildered during the decisions, with a total lack of communication given during VAR making its decisions. Supporters should have been prioritised with the implementation of VAR, however, they have been totally cast aside. 

VAR has stolen the heart and soul from football. Football was the most popular sport in the world before VAR, it was not broken and did not need fixing. Let's end the madness, put supporters first and scrap VAR!

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Set up a time limit - 30 seconds is enough if it is clear and obvious.  If can't make a decision by then it reverts to the original online decision.  If this was bought in it would also minimise the number of times of the on field ref having to go to the video screen, but if he is so instructed he should only get one view of each available angle, none of the rewind and review again ad infinitum nonsense.  

Clear and obvious!!!!

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19 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Could Kane not have put his hand there to steady himself, rather than push. 

The defender was too far forward to make a challenge / difference. 

That was likely partially his reasoning. He puts the hand on the back of defender when he sees that ball comes in such trajectory that he needs to quickly stop. While doing that, he also makes himself more room with that push and makes it impossible for defender to stop there. Defender tries to also stop there, but is met with push on his lower back. 

I see it so that Kane got clear advantage in the situation by pushing defender away from him. Without the push, the defender would've stopped in front of him and would likely have been able to block the shot. So, it is clearly intentional that he makes more room for himself and try to force the defender out of the situation by pushing his back.

I can't say for sure if defender was over dramatic while falling, likely so. However, that is what often is needed to point the clear foul for referee to ensure it is taken in account. Hanley does it really often for us as well. I would think it likely that in this case he got out of balance due to push happening on his lower back while he was trying to stop his movement and started falling due to that, but also added bit of acting during the fall to make it more clear.

In any case, I think it is pretty clear that there was intent to push defender either to make more space or to stop the movement to be able to receive the pass in shooting position. In both cases it was due to the foul Kane made that he got that chance. Without the push he would not have received the ball at all. 

And this is not to justify acting as part of falling or anything such. Just to state that not depending the actions that defender took, the foul was clear.

image.png.baa2573d650c564333925c4e17cdb61a.png

 

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There are lots of things wrong with football today-players going down with minimal contact is one of them-another is the increasing amount of occasions where people are insulted for having a different opinion 😳

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Dion Dublin once said in commentary, ‘he’s been touched there, he’s got a right to go down’.

Of course Dublin was wrong, what he should have said is ‘he’s now got an opportunity to cheat’.  This is the major problem now, players collapse under the slightest touch with forces that shouldn’t make them fall and literally every time, the ref falls for it too.    If they understood the game from a players perspective they would know they’re getting conned!    It’s scandalous what’s going on now, corrupt and incompetent.    This VAR is really exposing ust how poor our referees are and how much they lack understanding of the game.

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It's the tiny advantages to help your team in this money orientated industry. If you can win a penalty from minimal contact and that saves you from relegation or wins the title, would you?

I like the line "If they understood the game from a players perspective they would know they’re getting conned!". I think the telling part of that is how many ex players have or would become referees??? I think it would be fun to see these pundits referee a game. 

 

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