Anyone feel just a little bit sad for Watford fans?

[lake district canary 4,531]

There is nothing about Watford that is in any way desireable as a club. The amount of head coaches thsey get through is frankly stupid as it places all the power with the players. I'm surprised Ranieri took it on really - but he got it right in his summary of our match - that we played like a team and his team played like individuals. How he - or any other manager - can change that is a mystery while the present policies are in place. 

I'm with Nutty and others who are sceptical about selling to rich owners just for the money. For what it's worth I have a certain sympathy for fans of any club who feels their club has lost it's soul just for a bit of money.

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

9 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

A PL winning manager on the verge of being sacked (again). Who are these serious top level players?

Sarr, foster, cleverly, sissko would be four off the top of my head who I think any neutral would describe as proper premiership level players. Maybe ‘serious’ was the wrong phase but the owners have given the fans a team that on paper should be able to compete. They have also put a manager in with some impressive history. Easy to say from the outside looking in but the owners seem to have supplied to tools to do the job and if they think they have it bad then fine but would they prefer complete ambivalence to the PL from their owner?

[BarclayWazza 91]

47 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

This whataboutery criticism is spot on. That what about Leicester and what about Wolves just doesn't work. It assumes the owner we get will be the ones they have. Which then brings in more whataboutery with a much longer list of clubs. The law of averages says we are more likely to get one of those. Which is the point.

So if we ban whataboutery what's next?

Foreign/rich owners don't have to be a lucky dip... 

But my argument against whatabboutery goes further.  Nearly every club in the Premier League now has a billionaire owner.  In comparison, we sold the best ever player to pull on a Norwich shirt for approximately 150% of the net worth of our owners.  It's not about whatabouttery, its about having the tools being able to compete at this level.  With more and more money going into the game, the wage structures and transfer budgets we have to stick to make it harder every year for us to be competitive.

I guess the question then becomes what do you want from your football club, if you're happy with us being "little old Norwich" who do things the "right way" but never manage to do anything of note in the PL then thats your right.  I just look at the opportunities and the players we've had over the last 10 years or so and while we might have improved off of the pitch, on the pitch we haven't maximised those opportunities.  The bottom 4 this season are very poor and Brentford could easily be drawn into the equation.  Again, we've got an opportunity but it appears any purchases are dependent on sales so once again the size of Delia's wallet is restricting us.

3 hours ago, hogesar said:

No one has said that.

If anything its those who want new owners that are deluded. You've said it yourself, we might improve or "we might not"

Thats a delusion. We might improve, we might significantly go backwards to a lower midtable championship club like plenty of others of similar size. We might even become a regular league one participant as several similar sized clubs have faced.

Your post suggests we might improve or we might just stay as we are. Thats not how the risk works.

I certainly did not suggest that we might just stay as we are, don't put words in my mouth.  I'll elucidate.  Under Delia we have previously had threats of administration, time as League One club and recently gone backwards to a mid table Championship club.  Nothing says that we are immune from doing that again under her ownership.  This season already feels like a backward step from the last 2 attempts.  Staying a yo-yo club is reliant on wisely using the money from player sales and the multi million pound players are running out.

I consider the range of what I think is our potential under Delia/richer owners and save the word "deluded" for anyone who thinks we can become "established" as a PL team under Delia.  Perhaps falling back to League 1 is equally unlikely but I'd ask what's the point in this?  Each subsequent promotion (if it happens) is celebrated less than before because of the inevitability of us being uncompetitive the following season.  Already, I couldn't really get excited about the last two promotions for that exact reason.  Alternative ownership perhaps opens that range up, I'd say League One is highly unlikely but it at least gives us a chance to be something other than whipping boys each year.

 

1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I dont know how to tackle the long list of things you've got wrong in your post. Something tells me it's not worth it.

For someone accusing others of missing the point, its ironic that you've got this so blindingly incorrect, and not been able to take the actual point from my post.

Either way, none of your moaning on here us going to get rid of Delia so we've got her and I'm happy with that until a better offer arrives.

You've already resorted to name calling and now you've invoked the "you're wrong but I cba to explain why".  You're nearly at the full house for I don't have a good argument for my opinion.  Please do indulge me - what is so blindingly incorrect about the fact our owner is unable to make us competitive in the PL?  Because I really can't understand the blind faith in an owner that has only put a meek attempt into PL survival in the last 3 attempts.

[nutty nigel 7,528]

21 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

Foreign/rich owners don't have to be a lucky dip... 

 

We're 100% in agreement.

If it wasn't a lucky dip whataboutery would be redundant on both sides.

But what else is there?

What are the choices?

[BarclayWazza 91]

4 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

We're 100% in agreement.

If it wasn't a lucky dip whataboutery would be redundant on both sides.

But what else is there?

What are the choices?

OK let's stay uncompetitive with a p*ss poor owner and hope 3 other clubs are properly sh*t each year 

[Midlands Yellow 3,975]

2 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

OK let's stay uncompetitive with a p*ss poor owner and hope 3 other clubs are properly sh*t each year 

And slightly racist owners too. 

[corbs 147]

To answer the original question- yes, sympathy based on empathy. But it’s easy to feel that way when you have won. We are similar clubs at heart, and fans are fans, from Hartlepool to Argyle. I’ve always liked Luther Blissett, remember a game at Portman road when he refused to be substituted, he was such a strong character the manager just accepted his decision. 

[nutty nigel 7,528]

13 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

OK let's stay uncompetitive with a p*ss poor owner and hope 3 other clubs are properly sh*t each year 

That's poor.

How did I know that a proper conversation was not an option with you.

It's either whataboutery or chuck the toys out of the pram.

 

[Canaries north 151]

2 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

I’ll address each point individually because you’ve tried to make a killer argument but it’s all got a bit tangled.

Saracens are a big rugby club, my point is they made an effort to grow their fan base through school trips, local rugby sevens, friendly’s against local teams etc. 

Saracens played at vicarage rd Watford for a number of years, that’s partly why I made the comparison.

I go to Saracens often. Barnet borders Hertfordshire, it’s right off the A1 and M1. It’s very easy to get there and they have a large Hertfordshire following.

Pointing out Saracens are good at marketing is completely different to saying they have acted morally or I agree with the tactics they have used to bypass wage caps. The Udinese point is a big swing and a miss.

If your friend thinks they will be small whatever they do then fine, but I don’t think they’ve particularly tried as someone who has lived in the county.

Watford have done many things for the fans according to my mate. He has a 75 mile season ticket. As I know myself living more than 75 miles from Carrow Rd I would not get a special season ticket. Yes he doesn't get the full allocation of games but he gets to choose the games he can go to and at the same price per game as a normal season ticket. Their supporter groups from round the country get to pick a home game that is close to them for priority away tickets. Also his brothers kids have all been to games with their school. As with the udinese / Saracens point being wide of the mark you have said that you think what Watford do is morally wrong but you are willing to pay money to see Saracens who have 100% broken the rules, been caught and admitted it? 

All I am trying to say is it's easy for people on here to have a go at another club. When other teams fans or pundits do it to us we get angry. We have problems with our own club. I can defend Norwich to the hilt but us not paying back the furlough money I can't. As my friend keeps reminding me Watford didn't take a penny and spent over half a million staffing the ground and providing meals, washing facilities and office space for the hospital staff next door during the pandemic. 

[Alex 26]

3 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

Yeah you’re right it’s quicker than I thought. I have used a bad example to be honest, Hertford is on the other side of Hertfordshire. If I had used Big towns / cities like Hemel or St Albans it would have made more sense.

Fair enough maybe that's why you have never thought of  following them. I have only ever met two people from Hemel Hempstead one girl at university and  another girl I sometimes work with. Both support Watford though.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Alex

[Midlands Yellow 3,975]

The theatre is nice in Watford, I watched a play there a few years ago. 

[Duncan Edwards 2,231]

The Wetherspoon head office is in Watford. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

7 hours ago, Alex said:

Fair enough maybe that's why you have never thought of  following them. I have only ever met two people from Hemel Hempstead one girl at university and  another girl I sometimes work with. Both support Watford though.

I grew up in St Albans so much nearer

[hertfordyellow 460]

7 hours ago, Canaries north said:

Watford have done many things for the fans according to my mate. He has a 75 mile season ticket. As I know myself living more than 75 miles from Carrow Rd I would not get a special season ticket. Yes he doesn't get the full allocation of games but he gets to choose the games he can go to and at the same price per game as a normal season ticket. Their supporter groups from round the country get to pick a home game that is close to them for priority away tickets. Also his brothers kids have all been to games with their school. As with the udinese / Saracens point being wide of the mark you have said that you think what Watford do is morally wrong but you are willing to pay money to see Saracens who have 100% broken the rules, been caught and admitted it? 

All I am trying to say is it's easy for people on here to have a go at another club. When other teams fans or pundits do it to us we get angry. We have problems with our own club. I can defend Norwich to the hilt but us not paying back the furlough money I can't. As my friend keeps reminding me Watford didn't take a penny and spent over half a million staffing the ground and providing meals, washing facilities and office space for the hospital staff next door during the pandemic. 

Nearly all the times I’ve been to Saracens have been for work and revelations about their payments have been relatively recently and I haven’t been since. I’m not a fan if that’s what you think.

Your point is wide of the mark because you’ve mixed up me using Saracens as an example of good community marketing as me endorsing them. That’s why the Udinese comment is off. I’ve paid to watch Watford play Norwich, by paying the money I’m not endorsing their approach to transfers, I just want to watch football.

The things you have described seem like good ideas but they mostly benefit fans already at the club rather than new ones. They certainly didn’t make it to my school, colts football club or any of my friends ones in St Albans which is pretty near and doesn’t have a decent team near by.

[Commonsense 621]

10 hours ago, Canaries north said:

Watford have done many things for the fans according to my mate. He has a 75 mile season ticket. As I know myself living more than 75 miles from Carrow Rd I would not get a special season ticket. Yes he doesn't get the full allocation of games but he gets to choose the games he can go to and at the same price per game as a normal season ticket. Their supporter groups from round the country get to pick a home game that is close to them for priority away tickets. Also his brothers kids have all been to games with their school. As with the udinese / Saracens point being wide of the mark you have said that you think what Watford do is morally wrong but you are willing to pay money to see Saracens who have 100% broken the rules, been caught and admitted it? 

All I am trying to say is it's easy for people on here to have a go at another club. When other teams fans or pundits do it to us we get angry. We have problems with our own club. I can defend Norwich to the hilt but us not paying back the furlough money I can't. As my friend keeps reminding me Watford didn't take a penny and spent over half a million staffing the ground and providing meals, washing facilities and office space for the hospital staff next door during the pandemic. 

They do those things in order to sell tickets though. We have a waiting list. How would our fans waiting for a season ticket respond if they were told that people from 75 miles away can pick and choose the games they come to, but get a favourable price?

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

42 minutes ago, Commonsense said:

They do those things in order to sell tickets though. We have a waiting list. How would our fans waiting for a season ticket respond if they were told that people from 75 miles away can pick and choose the games they come to, but get a favourable price?

I could be wrong but thought Watford have a waiting list for season tickets too, how did you jump to the assertion that all the things they do to be a community or family club are just token gestures to sell tickets. I agree with the fairness point made however

[BobLoz3 492]

23 hours ago, hogesar said:

Important quote here below, alongside others where they're not happy about having rich owners, who have given them some prem years but taken away their feeling of what their club means to them....

Sold our soul for some time at the top table, simple equation really.

I compare it loosely to being a recording artist who decides to make pop hits of whatever the in sound is at the time, a few singles will sell millions and chart, but in doing so they sacrifice having that classic album, never really establishing an identity, get any critical acclaim and don't ever build a solid, core fanbase

Exactly what I was thinking while reading this. 

There are also plenty of comments about how many of their fans are fed up with the ownership and model of the club. Which is the kind of ownership and model many of the usual suspects on here seem to desire. 

[hogesar 9,657]

5 minutes ago, BobLoz3 said:

Exactly what I was thinking while reading this. 

There are also plenty of comments about how many of their fans are fed up with the ownership and model of the club. Which is the kind of ownership and model many of the usual suspects on here seem to desire. 

It's like some have no concept of risk / reward and it baffles me. The evidence factually tells us that the probability of some billionaire owner making us achieve more than we currently are is something crazy like 1 in 5, if we're being super optimistic.

Now, if we'd spent the last 10 years as a bottom half Championship Club, you could almost argue the risk might be worth it. As we are, the risk to me seems to outweigh the reward - especially for a club our size where the reward is at best a couple of midtable finished in the Prem. (so about 6 places higher than we currently find ourselves).

[Canaries north 151]

1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

They do those things in order to sell tickets though. We have a waiting list. How would our fans waiting for a season ticket respond if they were told that people from 75 miles away can pick and choose the games they come to, but get a favourable price?

This is a legacy thing but used as an example of how Watford have been Pro active in the past at getting the gates up. They now also have a season ticket waiting list. Of course no one would do it when you don't have to. But in fairness to them they haven't cancelled it. 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Canaries north

[Canaries north 151]

3 hours ago, hertfordyellow said:

Nearly all the times I’ve been to Saracens have been for work and revelations about their payments have been relatively recently and I haven’t been since. I’m not a fan if that’s what you think.

Your point is wide of the mark because you’ve mixed up me using Saracens as an example of good community marketing as me endorsing them. That’s why the Udinese comment is off. I’ve paid to watch Watford play Norwich, by paying the money I’m not endorsing their approach to transfers, I just want to watch football.

The things you have described seem like good ideas but they mostly benefit fans already at the club rather than new ones. They certainly didn’t make it to my school, colts football club or any of my friends ones in St Albans which is pretty near and doesn’t have a decent team near by.

My point about Saracens is your moral judgement on the way Watford do business and not the marketing they do in the area. I find it very difficult to accept you calling one club immoral when admitting to going to see a club who have been caught cheating and demoted. Your argument you don't pay is not really an excuse as someone will be paying for you. As said before if Delia had a sister who was president at Barcelona and they wanted to loan us a few players we would not complain. Oh but it wouldn't be moral?

[hertfordyellow 460]

1 minute ago, Canaries north said:

My point about Saracens is your moral judgement on the way Watford do business and not the marketing they do in the area. I find it very difficult to accept you calling one club immoral when admitting to going to see a club who have been caught cheating and demoted. Your argument you don't pay is not really an excuse as someone will be paying for you. As said before if Delia had a sister who was president at Barcelona and they wanted to loan us a few players we would not complain. Oh but it wouldn't be moral?

No I worked for a company that supplied the swipeStation infrastructure. It was my job to be there. It's not about loaning, players are bought by the family and then distributed. It's very different, a few loans from Barcelona is one way, not knowing if a player will play for you or Udinese or Granada next season is much more messy. I wouldn't like it as a fan of this club in that scenario.

[Canaries north 151]

37 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

No I worked for a company that supplied the swipeStation infrastructure. It was my job to be there. It's not about loaning, players are bought by the family and then distributed. It's very different, a few loans from Barcelona is one way, not knowing if a player will play for you or Udinese or Granada next season is much more messy. I wouldn't like it as a fan of this club in that scenario.

 

37 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

No I worked for a company that supplied the swipeStation infrastructure. It was my job to be there. It's not about loaning, players are bought by the family and then distributed. It's very different, a few loans from Barcelona is one way, not knowing if a player will play for you or Udinese or Granada next season is much more messy. I wouldn't like it as a fan of this club in that scenario.

If Norwich were in the same position and as long as everything is within the laws I don't see any of our fans having a problem with it I really don't. It's all about working the system that you have to work in. All I have said is that as a whole I have found Watford fans to be very similar to us. Yes some good hearted banter but the realisation that in the end they will always be small fish in a very big pond fighting against the tide. Both clubs are small but in the top division when some much bigger clubs are languishing in the lower leagues. I have so much more respect for anyone who supports a smaller club. 

[Nuff Said 5,121]

15 hours ago, BarclayWazza said:

Foreign/rich owners don't have to be a lucky dip... 

But my argument against whatabboutery goes further.  Nearly every club in the Premier League now has a billionaire owner.  In comparison, we sold the best ever player to pull on a Norwich shirt for approximately 150% of the net worth of our owners.  It's not about whatabouttery, its about having the tools being able to compete at this level.  With more and more money going into the game, the wage structures and transfer budgets we have to stick to make it harder every year for us to be competitive.

I guess the question then becomes what do you want from your football club, if you're happy with us being "little old Norwich" who do things the "right way" but never manage to do anything of note in the PL then thats your right.  I just look at the opportunities and the players we've had over the last 10 years or so and while we might have improved off of the pitch, on the pitch we haven't maximised those opportunities.  The bottom 4 this season are very poor and Brentford could easily be drawn into the equation.  Again, we've got an opportunity but it appears any purchases are dependent on sales so once again the size of Delia's wallet is restricting us.

I certainly did not suggest that we might just stay as we are, don't put words in my mouth.  I'll elucidate.  Under Delia we have previously had threats of administration, time as League One club and recently gone backwards to a mid table Championship club.  Nothing says that we are immune from doing that again under her ownership.  This season already feels like a backward step from the last 2 attempts.  Staying a yo-yo club is reliant on wisely using the money from player sales and the multi million pound players are running out.

I consider the range of what I think is our potential under Delia/richer owners and save the word "deluded" for anyone who thinks we can become "established" as a PL team under Delia.  Perhaps falling back to League 1 is equally unlikely but I'd ask what's the point in this?  Each subsequent promotion (if it happens) is celebrated less than before because of the inevitability of us being uncompetitive the following season.  Already, I couldn't really get excited about the last two promotions for that exact reason.  Alternative ownership perhaps opens that range up, I'd say League One is highly unlikely but it at least gives us a chance to be something other than whipping boys each year.

 

You've already resorted to name calling and now you've invoked the "you're wrong but I cba to explain why".  You're nearly at the full house for I don't have a good argument for my opinion.  Please do indulge me - what is so blindingly incorrect about the fact our owner is unable to make us competitive in the PL?  Because I really can't understand the blind faith in an owner that has only put a meek attempt into PL survival in the last 3 attempts.

1) You can’t just say “Foreign/rich owners don't have to be a lucky dip... ” and not justify it. Are you suggesting that the clubs that were sold to foreign/rich owners and didn’t subsequently do well were negligent in some way? That selling our club is bound to be a good thing, all we need to do is do it ‘properly’? Have you heard the phrase “self-fulfilling prophecy”?

 

2) It doesn’t take a lot of thought to see that the wealth of an owner is often irrelevant. How much of their own money have the Glazers invested in Man U? If there is such a correlation between the wealth of a football club owner and success, how do your explain our recent performance in the Championship where our owners are still in something like the bottom two or three in terms of their net wealth?
 

3) Again, you need to explain what you mean when you use a phrase like “maximise those opportunities”. Do your mean winning every game, winning the PL or staying up? What would make you happy with the club is run? Because from where I’m standing it just looks like however well we do, you will then just want more.

I get the idea of building on success, but I would argue that that this is exactly what we are trying to do already - and succeeding. Sometimes things won’t go as planned, and we take two steps forward and then one back, that’s life, and is the same for all clubs, no matter how rich their owners. Despite Webber’s attempt to give Farke the weaponry he didn’t get last time, we were failing again. But a good measure of people and organisations is how they perform when things go badly. In fact, I’d say it’s probably a better measure of how they perform than when things go well, it’s easy to do a good job when conditions are favourable. So we sacked Farke and got in Dean Smith to try and turn things around. The jury’s still out on that one, but there are good signs that we are at least improving. So I would argue that we are doing our best to maximise the opportunity we have, within the constraints of our funding. It’s not perfect,  and it’s not overnight, but if that’s what you expect then there’s no point having this debate. 
 

4) We are currently in the Premier League, and out of the relegation places. The current ownership has lifted us there after the concern of administration (quite likely overstated) and one season in League 1. We are making huge improvements to the club’s infrastructure and reputation. They *are* maximising the opportunity, but you seem to be saying that because we were in League 1 years ago under the current owners, that is quite likely to happen again. No, we’re not immune from it but we are no more immune from it under a new owner, and there is a good argument that we are less likely to go there with Delia and Michael precisely because they saw it happen and understood how we got there, and got out again. 
 

Finally, “what is so blindingly incorrect about the fact our owner is unable to make us competitive in the PL?” - our recent results and current league position. Nuff said.

 

Edited January 24, 2022 by Nuff Said

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

2 hours ago, hogesar said:

It's like some have no concept of risk / reward and it baffles me. The evidence factually tells us that the probability of some billionaire owner making us achieve more than we currently are is something crazy like 1 in 5, if we're being super optimistic.

Now, if we'd spent the last 10 years as a bottom half Championship Club, you could almost argue the risk might be worth it. As we are, the risk to me seems to outweigh the reward - especially for a club our size where the reward is at best a couple of midtable finished in the Prem. (so about 6 places higher than we currently find ourselves).

Have you factored in the risk of no change?. Yes a new wealthy owner could make bad appointments, yes a new wealthy owner could get the club into financial difficulties, hell they might even see us demoted to league one. But these are all things that have actually happened under Delia’s ownership and who’s to say it won’t happen again?. Would I gamble to hit your self imposed ceiling of 6 places higher, no I wouldn’t but I don’t see us maintaining 17th in the PL either. An owner with a bit of money can at least give themselves options to rectify a poor decision.  I do get the ‘better the devil you know’ argument but when weighing up what she brings to the table v’s the potential benefits of new ownership it makes the risk worth it.

[shefcanary 2,393]

We've done this discussion to death on here regarding ownership, please leave it alone.  There is no chance of anything changing to assist with this season (legal due diligence timetables, share offers to minority share holders, etc.) even if there was someone else interested. 

And as we have discussed on another thread, there is nothing, nil, nada, diddly squat attractive about NCFC at this moment unless you are a true Norwich billionaire fan (despite asking the consensus is there is no-one like this) / a foreigner looking to set up a base in England / a rich dodgy billionaire having a laugh with his rich billionaire friends as who can manage an EPL club the best.  The club is not in financial distress, nor is it likely to win anything, so nothing to gain from sinking a fortune into the club. 

So please stop beating yourselves about this and boring us all on here. 

As for Watford, they were in financial distress several years ago and Elton found someone willing to rescue them.  Their fans got **** all say in it then, they have to accept the **** they are in now as well. 

For Watford fans, as for us, it has been a fun rollercoaster ride for a while.  

[Mr Angry 1,554]

Yes, I feel sad for them. Watford is where I was born, where I grew up, where I work and where I first started watching football.

I see a lot of similarity between us and them in terms of history, stature, relative wealth, even the business model of transfer strategy.

The comments about the "Cult of Gino" is rather redolent of the comments on here about how Delia is revered but I'm not too sure whether the general tone of that thread is representative of the fanbase as a whole-none of my friends who support Watford have expressed anything approaching the level of anger on display there.

[Pugin 601]

To get back to the original question, I for one feel very sorry for genuine Watford fans.

Within living memory they were a humble Third Division side who had some wondrous days in the sun. 

Now they are a struggling Premier League side with the fanbase apparently having a collective nervous breakdown. I read all of the posts from the Watford message board last night. One stuck in my mind. It was from 'Jossy' and it posed the question 'what was a lovely man like Claudio Ranieri doing getting involved with a club like Watford'.

What a way to feel about your own club. To get maximum enjoyment from games you have to love your club. The Third Division Watford was lovable; this version is not. We should all reflect on what it means for us. Once the love has gone there's no getting it back. Be very careful about what is lost in the pursuit of wealth.