Should we be accepting of the clubs' lack of transfers?

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

As the title suggests, there seems to be very little dissent on here with regards to our total lack of business and seeming lack of desire to bolster this window. I don't wish to open a can of worms, but how can anyone think that 'going what we've got' is our best or only option? Surely with the position we are in right now, we needed to be desperate to bring in 1 or 2 improvements.

I understand and support the model for the most part, but not to this degree. An extra few points could easily be the difference between going down and staying up. 

Could spending £7-£10 million on a CDM cause THAT much damage if it went **** up? If we buy an up-and-coming player, or one of say 25-26, what is the worst case scenario if he flops at our club for half a season having previously had a good reputation at previous clubs? We'd probably still recoup a decent chunk of the money in the summer, or have a good option in the champs next year.

Is a total avoidance of any kind of debt financing / structured payments the best way? Or is there a better balance of risk and reward than the apparent '0 risk for 0 reward' mantra we currently abide by?  

But forgetting all that for a second, does anyone really think its correct for Gilmour to stay for the rest of the season? I personally would've sent him back on 01 Jan and looked to replace him with someone totally different. I can't wrap my head around why we haven't, he has looked out of place in this team from day 1 and that hasn't changed a jot. 

Even Kabak is effectively a wasted loan spot at this point, he's undoubtedly our fourth choice CB so basically just a reserve player - hell even Sorensen done better than him at CB. If you want to keep Gilmour then why not send Kabak back? We've got Zimmerman to come back in as a back up option too.

I'm just a bit baffled by it all. I can forgive the lack of spending on a permanent signing, although I don't agree with it, but the failure to act in the loan market is hugely disappointing and devoid of logic based on what we've seen on the pitch this season.

[Danke bitte 965]

It’s never as easy as buying a CDM just like that. It’s a case of seeing who’s out there, who’s willing to come into a relegation battle, who we can afford both in fee and wages, who (in all respect to our club) will most likely be willing to play in the championship next season, and where we can free up space in the squad by selling someone first.

I’m fairly certain we’d be looking to bring someone on board but there’s so many moving parts that if one breaks down then they’re all log jammed. 

The Smith sound bites seem to me that he feels the squad was overhauled with too many bodies coming in during summer. Of which we’ve all done to death the effectiveness of such and such. I feel a bit of sympathy for Smith because his current wants are hampered by history and a squad he didn’t assemble. I completely agree with you though, we need maybe 2 solid hands in the centre but I doubt it will happen. 

[Petriix 2,834]

I think there's probably something to be said for avoiding burdening any potential new signing with the misery of a relegation. It would likely be better for morale to wait until the summer and then sign players for the Championship with commensurately lower fees and wages.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,023]

Really not much point getting bent out of shape over something over which you have no control. You can always start/join a protest group or not renew your season ticket in protest if it makes you feel better......

Edited January 20, 2022 by Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB

[Davidlingfield 63]

The answer to the lack of transfer activity is simple - there are no funds available.

[shefcanary 2,396]

There may be funds available but who the **** are you going to buy in January who is both reasonably priced and can start to perform immediately on signing.  It's never worked for Norwich, so maybe this time a change of approach may just pay dividends.  

Although having said that I would jump cart wheels if they did do some business and brought in a player that changed the whole make up of the side for the better!

[Google Bot 3,275]

If we keep picking up points I don't care. 🙂

I think one of our biggest issues this season has been trying to fit a large number of players in similar positions into the mix.  More specifically picking Gilmour as he's considered the best of the bunch.

It's a team we build, and we looked like one at the weekend. To bring in anyone who will make a difference we'll be squashing the progression of another player, so it would need to be of very good quality, and they don't come cheap.

Honestly, all I want is to feel that the players are up for the fight, and felt we've been short changed on that a lot this season.... We need to stop chopping and changing.  Having Normann back will be massive.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

we don't really have a choice. I definitely don't want us to go out and buy another Naismith. I'd rather just go with what we've got if that's the case.

If we can find a DM with a good engine to replace the hole Skipp/Tettey left then I'd hope we absolutely do go for it. Problem is they need to be the right age, prepared to play in the championship and not get poached by the other prem sides.

I won't take "there is no money" as an excuse but I understand it compromises what we do. Players are assets though so if we buy smart then we'd actually make money. If someone like Lewis O'Brien was available for a reasonable fee then we should absolutely dip our toes in.

[NewNestCarrow 191]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Is a total avoidance of any kind of debt financing / structured payments the best way?

The club do not avoid debt or financing. There is a pretty hefty loan currently on the books, repayable by September 2022.

 

 

 

[1902 1,167]

5 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

The club do not avoid debt or financing. There is a pretty hefty loan currently on the books, repayable by September 2022.

 

 

 

Also, when it comes to player transfers.

Yes avoiding debt or structure payments is worth totally avoiding unless we are sure we can pay it AND our wage bill if we aren't promoted in the next two years.

We can't sell corners to hotels, gaurantee promotion or assume we will have a James Madison on our books every time. 

[hertfordyellow 460]

This isn't Football Manager, transfers don't just happen. Webber has been trying to find that 7m player all summer, its even harder now. January is a much quieter window and we are almost nailed on for relegation where as in the summer that was undecided.

We know from experience that most foreign signings take half a season to adjust so we might not get too much for our money this season anyway. We are starting to see better from Sargent, Rashica and Lees-Melou as they adjust. If Normann is close to a return then we have that player already.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by hertfordyellow

[Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,271]

I thought we'd sign one or two. I'm disappointed we haven't TBH, it does show a lack of ambition, as per!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

The only transfers I'd have wanted to see would have been swapping Kabak and Gilmour for two other loans - either a real improvement at centre-half and a bona-fide defensive midfielder, but we don't know the terms of the loan agreements. It was pretty clear from our spending that we were going to have very little to spend this window, and the January window is usually overpriced anyway.

Personally, I'd be hoping that the likes of Rashica and Lees-Melou get to grips with the Premier League now, and that the likes of Idah and Sörensen continue their improvement.

[1902 1,167]

13 minutes ago, Creedence Clearwater Couto said:

I thought we'd sign one or two. I'm disappointed we haven't TBH, it does show a lack of ambition, as per!

It really doesn't show a lack of ambition, It shows the board aren't going to throw good money after bad. 

It would be highly unlikely that two new signings will come in, have an instant impact and keep us up. The most likely way we get out of this is by the players who have been with the squad adapting to the premier league and therefore performing better.

The good thing is they have begun to last week.

Edited January 20, 2022 by 1902

[Mason 47 1,376]

I can accept that we spent most of our funds trying to get it right in the summer- when DS has a pretty much full squad to choose from, we are picking up points. 

Realistically speaking, any signing we make would have to make a difference right away (so of a certain level, price and with PL experience) inflated by the January-window tax and be either re-sellable of more/ equal value with a relegation on his CV (or happy to play in the Championship).

If anyone can name a player that can fit those silly parameters, I'll gladly be cross about our window so far 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

We will make signings. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

25 minutes ago, hertfordyellow said:

Webber has been trying to find that 7m player all summer, its even harder now. .

Watford just signed a left back for £3.6m and paid the same for Dennis in the summer.

So perhaps we should just be hiring somebody who is better at recruitment? 

[Commonsense 621]

2 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

As the title suggests, there seems to be very little dissent on here with regards to our total lack of business and seeming lack of desire to bolster this window. I don't wish to open a can of worms, but how can anyone think that 'going what we've got' is our best or only option? Surely with the position we are in right now, we needed to be desperate to bring in 1 or 2 improvements.

I understand and support the model for the most part, but not to this degree. An extra few points could easily be the difference between going down and staying up. 

Could spending £7-£10 million on a CDM cause THAT much damage if it went **** up? If we buy an up-and-coming player, or one of say 25-26, what is the worst case scenario if he flops at our club for half a season having previously had a good reputation at previous clubs? We'd probably still recoup a decent chunk of the money in the summer, or have a good option in the champs next year.

Is a total avoidance of any kind of debt financing / structured payments the best way? Or is there a better balance of risk and reward than the apparent '0 risk for 0 reward' mantra we currently abide by?  

But forgetting all that for a second, does anyone really think its correct for Gilmour to stay for the rest of the season? I personally would've sent him back on 01 Jan and looked to replace him with someone totally different. I can't wrap my head around why we haven't, he has looked out of place in this team from day 1 and that hasn't changed a jot. 

Even Kabak is effectively a wasted loan spot at this point, he's undoubtedly our fourth choice CB so basically just a reserve player - hell even Sorensen done better than him at CB. If you want to keep Gilmour then why not send Kabak back? We've got Zimmerman to come back in as a back up option too.

I'm just a bit baffled by it all. I can forgive the lack of spending on a permanent signing, although I don't agree with it, but the failure to act in the loan market is hugely disappointing and devoid of logic based on what we've seen on the pitch this season.

One word. Naismith. Once bitten twice shy, though I do think you have a point.

[1902 1,167]

4 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Watford just signed a left back for £3.6m and paid the same for Dennis in the summer.

So perhaps we should just be hiring somebody who is better at recruitment? 

We have no idea if the left back will prove any good. 

Also, newsflash, other teams will make good cheap signings. It's a competitive market, we won't see every opportunity before every other team. That doesn't make us abysmal or mean the player we need is just waiting for us to realise he is out there.

Also, is it Watford they are signed for, or is Udinese? Or Grenada? Or for the huge number of clubs they loan to. They are a footballing multinational franchise which is incomparable to most other clubs, including our own. 

[Uncle Fred 526]

Would you trust them to spend the money wisely 

no way get relegated , get Webber and the stowmarket 2 out and start again 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

6 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Also, is it Watford they are signed for, or is Udinese? Or Grenada? Or for the huge number of clubs they loan to. They are a footballing multinational franchise which is incomparable to most other clubs, including our own. 

That sounds like a load of guff to me, the Pozzo family own two clubs... Gino owns Watford and his father owns Udinese and has done since 1986. Neither of them are big clubs, making them out to be some sort of corporate conglomerate like the City Football Group is a gross exaggeration. 

Grenada was sold 6 years ago to the Chinese.

Gino Pozzo worked for Udinese where he proved to be excellent at talent identification and recruitment, they invested in international scouting, bought players cheap and sold them high. What could you possibly object to in such a model?

Be a complete disaster if Norwich signed the next Alexis Sanchez for a couple of hundred grand wouldn't it. Nothing wrong with the way that Watford operate.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I don't believe this is about not being able to find the right targets, more about a lack of desire to do business in the first place. 

Other clubs are managing to find players, I find it hard to believe there isn't one player who could do a decent job at CDM available. Especially considering it is an unoccupied role currently in the team (save for one good game from Sorensen in the last match).

It is a tough window to buy in yes, but could you imagine the improvement in the morale of the fans and players if we were to at least try and fill that anchor / CDM spot?

Sadly all the words from Smith in the press reek of a man who has been told that we are done until the summer. He has set our expectations as lowly as possible. 

And as I said, even if we are going to avoid any permanent signings, which I can accept - the lack of action in the loan market is really poor IMO. We have a square peg in a round hole in Gilmour, and a supposedly quality addition in Kabak who is now our 4th choice CB.

Neither of these players bring anything to the team nor would they be missed if we sent them back, so we would not be worse off if their replacements did not succeed. It would represent a cheap way to roll the dice again and hopefully get some players in who score better and are more suited to NCFC, at the moment we've rolled a 1 for both Gilmour and Kabak, so why on earth should we not try something?

If I were to look at any team in our current escapable position not remotely trying anything at the mid point of the season, I would have to question the logic of it. We can get out of this - but we need a boost. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, hertfordyellow said:

This isn't Football Manager, transfers don't just happen.

Are Watford in the premier league or are they playing football manager?

[Capt. Pants 4,226]

If Idah can continue his progress it would be like a new signing as pre West Ham he had shown very little.

Cantwell has nothing to lose now so if he wants that dream move away from Norwich then he needs to start working for it and see what happens this coming summer, as at the moment he's going nowhere.

I think if we had desire to get a CDM in then they would be here already.

If we do go down the focus will return to the summer signings where we spent our entire budget, rather than what we didn't do in January.

[hogesar 9,658]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Are Watford in the premier league or are they playing football manager?

Did you want a £3 million left-back then? Any team, including us, can make a signing this window. You can't use it to criticise until a player actually proves worth a purchase, otherwise anyone could equally claim you're criticising the club for not throwing money away at nothing.

It doesn't help that the footballing world / media has us down as already relegated. We're talking about signing a defensive midfielder who's either better than what we have (in Normann / PLM / Sorensen - understanding they're not really pure CDM's) - and yet happy to potentially spend a season at-least in the Championship, or we're talking about signing a promising youngster, or left-field option who may not be able to contribute this season but paying a premium in January just in case they do.

I think being able to sign a CDM who can contribute significantly this season is slightly more nuanced than you're making out.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,161]

1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Watford just signed a left back for £3.6m and paid the same for Dennis in the summer.

So perhaps we should just be hiring somebody who is better at recruitment? 

The reason Watford just signed a left back is that they are getting rid of the one that they signed in the summer because he's fat, slow and sh*t. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Did you want a £3 million left-back then? Any team, including us, can make a signing this window. You can't use it to criticise until a player actually proves worth a purchase, otherwise anyone could equally claim you're criticising the club for not throwing money away at nothing.

It doesn't help that the footballing world / media has us down as already relegated. We're talking about signing a defensive midfielder who's either better than what we have (in Normann / PLM / Sorensen - understanding they're not really pure CDM's) - and yet happy to potentially spend a season at-least in the Championship, or we're talking about signing a promising youngster, or left-field option who may not be able to contribute this season but paying a premium in January just in case they do.

I think being able to sign a CDM who can contribute significantly this season is slightly more nuanced than you're making out.

I respect its tricky to find the right player, but we are in a desperate position. 

And I can cite other clubs in our position buying players - successful or not - in this window as a criticism, because my criticism is that those clubs are trying and we are not. Yes I know those signings could fail, but at least they are trying to do something! I'm not asking us to move mountains here, I'm talking one permanent signing and the replacement of one of the loan players mentioned, or both. 

All of these rebuttals are pretty nonsensical anyway. Every word from the club has been around 'we're not being close to doing any business', 'we've already got a big squad', 'if we get our players back to fitness they'll be like new signings', 'sell to buy' etc etc or words to that effect. 

Yet literally none of the responses in this thread are in line with these comments. I instead am told how difficult the January window is, how the right players aren't available etc etc. Which is also true, but that's not exactly what the club is saying is it?  

If the club was really genuinely looking, and really genuinely struggling to find targets, then why on earth wouldn't they set expectations to fans to say that they are trying to do business but being patient to find the right people (i.e. exactly what said midway through the summer when everyone wondered what the f*** was going on).

And what of the loan position with Gilmour and Kabak? Does anyone get that? 

[NewNestCarrow 191]

17 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I respect its tricky to find the right player, but we are in a desperate position.

We are not in a desperate position, but we would be if we borrowed another £10m and the player(s) failed to prevent relegation. 

It is almost guaranteed that sending Gilmour & Kabak back early - as you suggest - would come with financial penalties

[The Great Mass Debater 1,089]

3 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

If you want to keep Gilmour then why not send Kabak back?

We've got options on both Kabak and Normann I believe. We probably cant terminate Kabak. Not sure about Gilmour

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

10 minutes ago, NewNestCarrow said:

It is almost guaranteed that sending Gilmour & Kabak back early - as you suggest - would come with financial penalties

I'm sure it would, but still a cheap roll of the dice at a new option or two!