So is Putin going to invade Ukraine anytime soon or..?

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

Is this perhaps the first ray of hope that the Russian peoples may start to doubt Putin's fairy tales  -

 

The UK’s former ambassador to Yugoslavia and to Russia, Sir Andrew Wood, has been appearing on Sky News this morning, and he said that he thought a larger number of Russian people will believe the war crimes accusations than Vladimir Putin would like.

He said “I think a large proportion of the Russian people will suspect that it’s true, and that all sorts of emotional forces will be making them very, very anxious to deny it. They had great trust in their armed forces, greater trust in them than the government in general. And this is such a terrible shock for them.”

He went on to say “It has been a shock for the Russians to reveal themselves as being so inept military. It is also a complete contrast to what they not only expected, but relied on, not just just the speed of their victory, they supposed, but also that it would be possible thereafter for them in effect to rule Ukraine.”

Edited April 5, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

All these expelled Russian diplomats.

They should look on the bright side - Putin will be able to create a new battalion with them. Then they can discuss first hand what's really happening - those that make it back.

[kirku 1,332]

Summary of his comments is real.

The evidence they're proposing for the fabrication of the Bucha massacre by British "specialists" is because the town of Bucha sounds like the English word butcher.

If we could doubt the sheer naked stupidity of all of this. And people will believe it.

This might be their next angle:

Mariupol actually means Marry A Pole, and it is the USA's policy on trying to genocide ethnic Russians by making them breed with Polish women

Edited April 5, 2022 by kirku

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Is this perhaps the first ray of hope that the Russian peoples may start to doubt Putin's fairy tales  -

 

The UK’s former ambassador to Yugoslavia and to Russia, Sir Andrew Wood, has been appearing on Sky News this morning, and he said that he thought a larger number of Russian people will believe the war crimes accusations than Vladimir Putin would like.

He said “I think a large proportion of the Russian people will suspect that it’s true, and that all sorts of emotional forces will be making them very, very anxious to deny it. They had great trust in their armed forces, greater trust in them than the government in general. And this is such a terrible shock for them.”

He went on to say “It has been a shock for the Russians to reveal themselves as being so inept military. It is also a complete contrast to what they not only expected, but relied on, not just just the speed of their victory, they supposed, but also that it would be possible thereafter for them in effect to rule Ukraine.”

 

And this is the other way to react to it...

[kirku 1,332]

Dmytry Medvedev's letter 'on fakes and real history' published today ends on this note:

The goal [of the war in Ukraine] is, for the sake of the peace of future generations of Ukrainians themselves, the opportunity to finally build an open Eurasia - from Lisbon to Vladivostok

Edit more here:

Edited April 5, 2022 by kirku

[ricardo 7,349]

Lots of crimes go unpunished in the fog of war. This one will be no different.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Lots of crimes go unpunished in the fog of war. This one will be no different.

Russia isn't a signatory to the ICC so he cannot be prosecuted.

[1902 1,167]

I don't want to appear like I'm engaging in whatabouttery or in anyway justify what has happened. However it was inevitable. When young, immature people who are badly led become frustrated and scared whilst having total power over a civilian population then this is exactly what happens.

The Russians have been ambushed, killed and shown utter contempt (justifiably) by a population they have been told they were saving and who would be grateful. A significant number are poor, illeducated conscripts or former conscripts who have been brutalised through the horrendous Russian 'training' systems.

Throughout the history of war, massacres like this have taken place, whether in Ukraine or My Lai. It's a tragedy, but when Putin unleashed this hell, it was an inevitable consequence. 

Our horror is justified. Our shock is a symptom of forgetting the history of warfare.

Edited April 6, 2022 by 1902

[horsefly 4,288]

15 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I don't want to appear like I'm engaging in whatabouttery or in anyway justify what has happened. However it was inevitable. When young, immature people who are badly led become frustrated and scared whilst having total power over a civilian population then this is exactly what happens.

The Russians have been ambushed, killed and shown utter contempt (justifiably) by a population they have been told they were saving and who would be grateful. A significant number are poor, illeducated conscripts or former conscripts who have been brutalised through the horrendous Russian 'training' systems.

Throughout the history of war, massacres like this have taken place, whether in Ukraine or My Lai. It's a tragedy, but when Putin unleashed this hell, it was an inevitable consequence. 

Our horror is justified. Our shock is a symptom of forgetting the history of warfare.

Indeed! Alas it also needs to be acknowledged that Russia has form for justifying/ignoring particularly brutal exaction of revenge against populations it considers to be its enemies. Anyone who has read Anthony Beevor's "Berlin" will be all too aware of why German military and civilians were desperate to be captured by British and American forces rather than Russian.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

Interesting read.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/06/us-right-wing-republicans-russia-ukraine-disinformation

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Interesting read.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/06/us-right-wing-republicans-russia-ukraine-disinformation

Well they do owe Putin a lot. I guess he is calling in the debt.

[Rock The Boat 1,326]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Interesting read.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/06/us-right-wing-republicans-russia-ukraine-disinformation

What a sick and slimey rag the Guardian has become. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

34 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

What a sick and slimey rag the Guardian has become. 

RTV and Pravda your favourite no doubt. Lower than a snake's belly.

[Herman 9,718]

3 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

What a sick and slimey rag the Guardian has become. 

It's factually accurate. So what is your problem with it? 

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

23 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's factually accurate. So what is your problem with it? 

I guess he can't to work out which of these 'marks' he is for the Russians.

I actually though it was quite a good piece - fingering the likes of Nevermind as well in the bunch who leap by dumb instinct to find fault at home as opposed to looking at themselves and their justifications in the mirror.

Schafer said that “criticism of cancel culture, big tech censorship and the mainstream media have long been staples of Russian propaganda targeting audiences on the American political right and the fringes of the ‘anti-imperialist’ political left,” and stressed that these themes have “proven to be wildly successful at attracting American audiences in the past”.

[Herman 9,718]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I guess he can't to work out which of these 'marks' he is for the Russians.

I actually though it was quite a good piece - fingering the likes of Nevermind as well in the bunch who leap by dumb instinct to find fault at home as opposed to looking at themselves and their justifications in the mirror.

Schafer said that “criticism of cancel culture, big tech censorship and the mainstream media have long been staples of Russian propaganda targeting audiences on the American political right and the fringes of the ‘anti-imperialist’ political left,” and stressed that these themes have “proven to be wildly successful at attracting American audiences in the past”.

It's a strange reaction from him that's for sure. It's pretty common knowledge what is going on and all you have to do is watch Fox/GB news to see some of the evidence.

[Herman 9,718]

Just to add, George Galloway, that righteous anti-imperialist, has been labelled "Russian state-affiliated media" by twitter.😀

 

[horsefly 4,288]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Just to add, George Galloway, that righteous anti-imperialist, has been labelled "Russian state-affiliated media" by twitter.😀

 

Twitter should immediately withdraw the shameful description and replace it with an accurate one: "Putin apologist c*nt"

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Matt Le Tissier the new David Icke.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Just to add, George Galloway, that righteous anti-imperialist, has been labelled "Russian state-affiliated media" by twitter.😀

400K fools.

[kirku 1,332]

"Kremlin says presenting evidence of secret NATO bases in Ukraine is difficult as they are disguised as bio labs which are disguised as Azov bases which are disguised as residential buildings which are protected by weaponized birds"

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 04/04/2022 at 12:41, horsefly said:

I suggest you concentrate on the organisations providing the evidence. The fact that you, an often vociferous defender of free speech, prefer to believe Assad and Putin over the UN, the OPCW, and Human Rights Watch etc. continues to perplex me.

sorry, but I am considering a binary propaganda and there are certain events that have preceded this attrition. Not many people ever heard any reasons why Russia, when they asked to join the NATO attack pack, was refused entry. Putin started to realise that he has to make Russia self sufficient and his reforms achieved a de coupling from western right wing states who's wars of aggression were never punished, indeed those who did publicise western war crimes, were maligned with false sex accusations and left in Limbo, see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw

Why would you believe those who lied and incarcerated Julian Assange in a terrorist prison with their ever changing interpretation of the law, with informing us truthfully about the actions of their 'fellow right wingers' in Ukraine?

one of Zelenski's advisers being interviewed on his views about Islamic terrorism.

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1509264478801735688

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

On 06/04/2022 at 08:38, horsefly said:

Indeed! Alas it also needs to be acknowledged that Russia has form for justifying/ignoring particularly brutal exaction of revenge against populations it considers to be its enemies. Anyone who has read Anthony Beevor's "Berlin" will be all too aware of why German military and civilians were desperate to be captured by British and American forces rather than Russian.

Or indeed the Estonians tended to see the **** Germans as liberators compared to the Russians.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

35 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Or indeed the Estonians tended to see the **** Germans as liberators compared to the Russians.

Lithuania Estonia and Latvia and Poland had their very own Jewish pogrom even before the Germans came into their countries, same as in Ukraine.

Go and visit the Estonian Holocaust museum if you can find it.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

3 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Lithuania Estonia and Latvia and Poland had their very own Jewish pogrom even before the Germans came into their countries, same as in Ukraine.

Go and visit the Estonian Holocaust museum if you can find it.

None of which counters my point that the Estonians saw the Germans as liberators from the Soviets, before realising that the Germans were simply another occupying force

Any evidence of this Estonian Jewish pogrom before the Germans came over? Looked to me like the Soviets were already making ground and started deporting Jews and everyone else.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

30 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

None of which counters my point that the Estonians saw the Germans as liberators from the Soviets, before realising that the Germans were simply another occupying force

Any evidence of this Estonian Jewish pogrom before the Germans came over? Looked to me like the Soviets were already making ground and started deporting Jews and everyone else.

My Paternal Grandfather was a Russian Jew and came to the UK early 1900s to escape the continued pogroms. I have tried to research why it was always the Jews who were persecuted more than others and as it was universal, I can only think it stems back to the bible (if you believe it and religion) and that the Jews gave up Jesus for Barabass. Strange that its other religions who persecute Jews for giving up one of their own.

The pogroms in Russia only occurred because of the spread of the Russian Empire. Very few Jews actually lived in Russia prior to the 18th century.

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

10 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

My Paternal Grandfather was a Russian Jew and came to the UK early 1900s to escape the continued pogroms. I have tried to research why it was always the Jews who were persecuted more than others and as it was universal, I can only think it stems back to the bible (if you believe it and religion) and that the Jews gave up Jesus for Barabass. Strange that its other religions who persecute Jews for giving up one of their own.

The pogroms in Russia only occurred because of the spread of the Russian Empire. Very few Jews actually lived in Russia prior to the 18th century.

Thanks KG. Antisemitism in Europe is very old - it comes and goes (and yes maybe because Jesus, a Jew, was 'given up' by the Jews - all in Gods plan apparently) and there is nothing particularly 'Russian' or not about it.

Indeed if I recall here in Norwich we found multiple  -17 (Jewish) bodies down a medieval well recently.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13855238

Most of us have a grown up well past these forms of racism and I'm far more concerned about the present atrocities in Ukraine and their apologists than what for most is ancient if yet unpalatable history.   

Edited April 7, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[horsefly 4,288]

1 hour ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

sorry, but I am considering a binary propaganda and there are certain events that have preceded this attrition. Not many people ever heard any reasons why Russia, when they asked to join the NATO attack pack, was refused entry. Putin started to realise that he has to make Russia self sufficient and his reforms achieved a de coupling from western right wing states who's wars of aggression were never punished, indeed those who did publicise western war crimes, were maligned with false sex accusations and left in Limbo, see

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfvFpT-iypw

Why would you believe those who lied and incarcerated Julian Assange in a terrorist prison with their ever changing interpretation of the law, with informing us truthfully about the actions of their 'fellow right wingers' in Ukraine?

one of Zelenski's advisers being interviewed on his views about Islamic terrorism.

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1509264478801735688

I'm afraid this is little more than shallow "whataboutery". You do realise that you can be critical of both sides for any acts that cross moral boundaries don't you? The implication that past Western moral infractions somehow cancel out the utter depravity of Putin's invasion of the Ukraine is both ridiculous and sick. Further, you seem totally oblivious that criticisms of western state interventions in the other countries that you mention were not only freely voiced in every contemporaneous media, but also voiced by hundreds of thousands of ordinary citizens taking to the streets in free protest. Perhaps you would like to tell us about the current possibilities for criticism of the war available to the Russian media, and for ordinary Russian people.

Finally, do feel to explain which "western right wing states" Putin had to "decouple" himself from in order to make Russia "self-sufficient", and what "reforms" you are referring to in his achievement of this. I haven't a clue who you are referring to as the  "western right wing states" he was supposedly "coupled to", nor what "reforms" he introduced to ensure Russia's "de-coupling".

[horsefly 4,288]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/bbc-reporter-skewers-priti-patel-s-claim-about-ukrainian-visas-with-just-one-line/ar-AAW2rZM?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=b9898ba7c1d64f76a03745604bbfd1dd

Anyone else getting sick and tired of Patel repeating the blatant lie that the reason other European countries have let in thousands more Ukrainian refugees than the UK is that members of the EU don't require visas as they have open borders? Why has no interviewer pointed out that the Ukraine is NOT a member of the EU therefore its citizens would under normal circumstances indeed require visas to travel to EU countries. The simple truth is that EU countries have waived such requirements because they have the moral integrity and decency to respond to the desperate needs of  people escaping from mass murderers. There is nothing at all to stop the UK doing exactly the same.

[kirku 1,332]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

There is nothing at all to stop the UK doing exactly the same.

While I agree with your overall point, Ukrainians already essentially had visa-free access to the Schengen zone (90 day visa on arrival)