No McLean = win ...coincidence??

[Nora's Ghost 157]

My spirits lifted when I saw McLean had been left out.

 

Another of Farke's obsessions put to bed with any luck.

[Ken Hairy 3,759]

Just now, hogesar said:

Yeah I was and I disagree. I think because we won its being overhyped.

I suppose to try and be fair look at our last home win vs Southampton - Kenny won more in the air than Sorensen did today, Kennys passing success was considerably higher,  Kenny created more...in fact the only thing Sorensen done better was tackle more times. 

Sorensen is one of those players who people have bigged up so much from not playing I think they see things that don't exist. He was good today, decent, but no better really than what McLean has offered this season. 

Like I say, its why he's never been able to displace him at this level or the level below under two managers and coaches who watch him day in day out.

He should get a chance from today but as i said, I dont expect it to last long 

Why are you still comparing McLean and Sorensen?? It's like comparing apples and oranges, they play differing roles. PLM is the correct comparison and he was levels above McLean today. 

[hogesar 9,615]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Sörensen's primary job is to be a screen in front of defence, pick up loose balls, and get a tackle in where he can. Comparing him to an ostensible box-to-box man in McLean is a bit odd. What really matters is how the players in that midfield area interact with each other and how effective the teamwork is, and it seemed better balanced with Sörensen and Lees-Melou compared to McLean and Lees-Melou.

Get Normann back, and that may be a further improvement.

Yeah thats fairer. If you want a pure defensive screen then yes, perhaps Sorensen over McLean. But normally in a two midfield you need a bit of both.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

4 minutes ago, Ian said:

There's always some muppet on here who has to unfairly single someone out for criticism, even after a rare win!

Kenny always gives a consistent performance, and is a very good option to have off the bench; it's not his fault we have been over-reliant on him this season. He's been an important squad member for us over one of our most successful recent periods.

So you'll agree...not good enough to start and to only be on the bench?

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, hogesar said:

Yeah I was and I disagree. I think because we won its being overhyped.

I suppose to try and be fair look at our last home win vs Southampton - Kenny won more in the air than Sorensen did today, Kennys passing success was considerably higher,  Kenny created more...in fact the only thing Sorensen done better was tackle more times. 

Sorensen is one of those players who people have bigged up so much from not playing I think they see things that don't exist. He was good today, decent, but no better really than what McLean has offered this season. 

Like I say, its why he's never been able to displace him at this level or the level below under two managers and coaches who watch him day in day out.

He should get a chance from today but as i said, I dont expect it to last long 

You like your stats more than most, so you'll know you're cherry-picking. Even before today's game, Whoscored had Sorenson with a better rating than McLean (6.63 to 6.4).

[hogesar 9,615]

Just now, Ken Hairy said:

Why are you still comparing McLean and Sorensen?? It's like comparing apples and oranges, they play differing roles. PLM is the correct comparison and he was levels above McLean today. 

Yes PLM was very good today - I've already said that.

If we are going to correlate winning with who plays then McLean has won two games and Sorensen one. It wasn't me that started the thread..

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Yeah thats fairer. If you want a pure defensive screen then yes, perhaps Sorensen over McLean. But normally in a two midfield you need a bit of both.

There's the weakness with McLean and Lees-Melou, both are box-to-box men, but both are arguably better going forwards. Sörensen is the more natural defender in there.

[hogesar 9,615]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

You like your stats more than most, so you'll know you're cherry-picking. Even before today's game, Whoscored had Sorenson with a better rating than McLean (6.63 to 6.4).

Again, I dont like stats half as much as the coaching and management teams. It depends what you want from your midfielder as has been nicely summarised by @TheGunnShow - if we want a pure defensive screen then I'd probably opt for Sorensen as well but in many games we've needed more than that - particularly in a three midfield and Kennys box-to-box attributes suited us fine in beating Southampton and Brentford.

[hogesar 9,615]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

There's the weakness with McLean and Lees-Melou, both are box-to-box men, but both are arguably better going forwards. Sörensen is the more natural defender in there.

Yeah. Id like to see Normann and PLM in a two which I said elsewhere (maybe here). It would require more discipline from Normann mind.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

What we didn't have today was McLean giving the ball away cheaply in midfield.

Sometimes you learn by who isn't playing rather than who is.

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

Just now, hogesar said:

Yeah. Id like to see Normann and PLM in a two which I said elsewhere (maybe here). It would require more discipline from Normann mind.

Beginning to think Normann and Sörensen might be the best pairing. Sörensen - Rupp intrigues me as a combo but that combo probably hasn't got enough aggression in it.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

If we are going to correlate winning with who plays then McLean has won two games and Sorensen one. It wasn't me that started the thread..

I'd prefer to look at their win % to be honest, wouldn't you agree that's a more reflective metric?

I would normally agree with the whole can't compare apples and pears but the fact that we've played McLean and Lees-Melou together suggests that they're fighting over the same place.

There is no fight. Certainly not statistically anyway.

[Ian 1,129]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

So you'll agree...not good enough to start and to only be on the bench?

With a fully fit midfield, I don't think he would always be first choice.

The fact he actually manages to stay fit, unlike the majority of our players, isn't really his fault though is it?

Certainly doesn't deserve the correlation you are trying to imply that's for sure.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Beginning to think Normann and Sörensen might be the best pairing. Sörensen - Rupp intrigues me as a combo but that combo probably hasn't got enough aggression in it.

I am inclined to agree, but (and it's a big but) if PLM carries on how he played today then you can't drop him. Sorenson was good, solid and dependable today, a very Skipp-esque performance, but PLM was even better. I think what is starting to become apparent is that McLean is a 4th choice midfielder and in the Premier League, that sounds about right.

Edited January 15, 2022 by canarydan23

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

No idea.

But obviously this XI has earned the right to start the next game, bar any injured players of course (Aarons looks a certainty for the treatment room).

[The Real Buh 3,423]

Normann back training, get that rangers contract ready for McLean

and send wee Billy with him.

[hogesar 9,615]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

I'd prefer to look at their win % to be honest, wouldn't you agree that's a more reflective metric?

I would normally agree with the whole can't compare apples and pears but the fact that we've played McLean and Lees-Melou together suggests that they're fighting over the same place.

There is no fight. Certainly not statistically anyway.

I'm not sure they are fighting over the same place - certainly id be surprised with more fit midfielders if we don't revert to a three man central midfield especially away. I would expect McLean to be involved in that case although we arent talking a massive step up in quality on either side so im happy with Sorensen or McLean from that point of view. I just think longer term what I'm saying is what will end up being the case (that Sorensen overall is no better than McLean as a player).

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, The Real Buh said:

Normann back training, get that rangers contract ready for McLean

and send wee Billy with him.

I nearly choke on the words but I....agree.....with....Buh.

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

I am inclined to agree, but (and it's a big but) if PLM carries on how he played today then you can't drop him. Sorenson was good, solid and dependable today, a very Skipp-esque performance, but PLM was even better. I think what is starting to become apparent is that McLean is a 4th choice midfielder and in the Premier League, that sounds about right.

Can agree there. There is a good, hardworking player in Lees-Melou, but he's clearly still getting used to how intense a Premier League game is. I'd said in a thread started about him that for me he was the most disappointing new signing as you'd think an experienced top-flight player in France would be more able to hit the ground running than he did. Doucoure's a proven, rock-solid top-flight competitor though and Lees-Melou fought him all the way.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

I am inclined to agree, but (and it's a big but) if PLM carries on how he played today then you can't drop him. Sorenson was good, solid and dependable today, a very Skipp-esque performance, but PLM was even better. I think what is starting to become apparent is that McLean is a 4th choice midfielder and in the Premier League, that sounds about right.

To be honest I'm hopeful that this transfer window will bring one more centre midfielder into the mix. As good as Normann is, he's injury prone. If we stayed up I'd still want us to keep him at the right price, but we know he can't be relied on to play anymore than half a season... basically written on his CV.

If we can have just one player in this window, I'd like a DM, might free up Normann to play a more box-to-box role.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Can agree there. There is a good, hardworking player in Lees-Melou, but he's clearly still getting used to how intense a Premier League game is. I'd said in a thread started about him that for me he was the most disappointing new signing as you'd think an experienced top-flight player in France would be more able to hit the ground running than he did. Doucoure's a proven, rock-solid top-flight competitor though and Lees-Melou fought him all the way.

Sounds stupid but PLM even looked taller today. I sit near a corner about 10 rows back and he got quite close and looked a couple of inches taller than previous games.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

With a fully fit midfield, I don't think he would always be first choice.

The fact he actually manages to stay fit, unlike the majority of our players, isn't really his fault though is it?

Certainly doesn't deserve the correlation you are trying to imply that's for sure.

So I've pointed out that we've won today with an improved midfield performance that for once didnt contain McLean ,questioning whether it is partly due to his absence and the presence of better players in a crucial area of the pitch.

you yourself have then stated that he's not good enough to be in our team and only on the bench but are labelling others a 'muppet' ?

Edited January 15, 2022 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[canarybubbles 1,915]

24 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Sorensen didnt do anything McLean hasn't done for us - he is a player people are desperate to be better than he is. PLM was much, much better than Sorensen.

But of course, our midfield hasn't been good enough all season and if we are going to go with two in there moving forwards PLM and Normann might be the best shout. 

Sorensen should get a chance to have a run in the team but I'm sure we will find hes very much on or just below McLean in level - its why Farke and Smith both play him.

But the important thing is how players work together, and from a sample of one (today's game) it seems that PLM and Sorensen fit together better than PLM and McLean, probably because the latter pair tend to try to play the same role whereas the former have very clearly defined different roles.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

Not fair to blame it on Kenny. But I do think there is something in there being clarity of roles when there is a midfield two rather than three. I’ve always preferred the 4-2-3-1 for that reason. 

[lake district canary 4,531]

Sorensen is a great player to have in the squad and has been more than acceptable wher ever he has been asked to play in the team. He's been unfortunate not to have had more opportunities at playing the role he does best - which is where he played today.  Give him a run in the side in his favourite position and I think he will prove himself there.  I don't get the "over hyped because he's not been playing" - I think he is actually under rated because he doesn't go charging around - he is a measured and steady footballer and sometimes a team needs a player like that....someone in the middle who can be cool under pressure.

Brentford have a very similar player (can't remember his name) who has done very well this season. I like Mclean (when he is at his best) but Sorensen deserves a run in the team imo.

Edited January 15, 2022 by lake district canary

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, canarybubbles said:

But the important thing is how players work together, and from a sample of one (today's game) it seems that PLM and Sorensen fit together better than PLM and McLean, probably because the latter pair tend to try to play the same role whereas the former have very clearly defined different roles.

I think it's hard to strike up a partnership with McLean because you have to spend half of your focus on not getting clobbered by one of his flailing arms.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

41 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I agree. Went home upset at the reception he is getting and worried he will tarnish his reputation is my guess. To be fair he’s young and might have needed a breather 

He was watching in the city stand today.

[Ian 1,129]

1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

 

you yourself have then stated that he's not good enough to be in our team and only on the bench but are labellibg others a 'muppet' ?

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck.

[TheGunnShow 5,925]

5 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure they are fighting over the same place - certainly id be surprised with more fit midfielders if we don't revert to a three man central midfield especially away. I would expect McLean to be involved in that case although we arent talking a massive step up in quality on either side so im happy with Sorensen or McLean from that point of view. I just think longer term what I'm saying is what will end up being the case (that Sorensen overall is no better than McLean as a player).

I see what you're trying to say, but I think a lot of people are trying to say that Sörensen's primary attributes are one we need a bit more of. Kenny's pretty average across the board, decent in the air and has a very good engine. Sörensen has the edge in tackling and definitely has the edge in sweeping up loose balls. He probably hasn't got the same aggression as McLean, and certainly hasn't got the same box-to-box tendencies, but we've more room for that in our squad.

[hogesar 9,615]

3 minutes ago, canarybubbles said:

But the important thing is how players work together, and from a sample of one (today's game) it seems that PLM and Sorensen fit together better than PLM and McLean, probably because the latter pair tend to try to play the same role whereas the former have very clearly defined different roles.

Don't disagree with that.