How would you have done our Summer business differently?

[Big Vince 318]

In answer to the OP:

Not have the people making those decisions make those decisions.

And moreover, how did we get to the point where Mr & Mrs Webber effectively run the club from top to bottom?

[Ian 1,129]

A few quality athletes, and less of a player turnover.

I actually think some of the signings in isolation are still rather good, but absolutely not what we need to become a cohesive unit in the league.

Put it this way, our best performers against Palace were a player who has been out for the best part of two years, and an academy product...

Edit: I also understand why people are talking about hindsight, but to be fair, several people on here did not get caught up in the hype and were desperate for more physicality and specific positions that have not been addressed in over 2 years.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Ian

[Wilson 62]

I’d have not bought Sargent, PLM and Gunn and spent the money on a new stand. 
 

It’s not just the self financing model that’s holding us back it’s the stadium too. 

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, kirku said:

This is where we enter the realms of fantasy.

Vrancic, the exact opposite of the type of midfielder we need in this league.

Hugill, who made no impact for us in the Champ and has been widely derided at WBA.

Barden, who's very sadly had medical issues.

Soto, who isn't playing for Porto's B team in the Portuguese whatever tier.

Onel, struggled with form and fitness for the last 3ish years.

Martin, can't get a game in L1 for MK Dons.

McCallum, been ok at Champ level. 

----

If we think the squad currently isn't cut out for the Prem (it isn't), then it's really not credible to suggest those players would remotely improve matters.

 

My point is that, rather than filling the squad with new dross at great expense, we should have just kept the dross we had as backup. Hugill ~ Sargent, Vrancic ~ Gilmour, Barden ~ Gunn, Hernandez ~ Tzolis, Martin ~ Lees Melou, McCallum ~ Williams. None of those signings actually improved the squad.

Keeping those players would have allowed us to make four quality signings which actually did improve the first team.

[kirku 1,332]

34 minutes ago, Petriix said:

My point is that, rather than filling the squad with new dross at great expense, we should have just kept the dross we had as backup. Hugill ~ Sargent, Vrancic ~ Gilmour, Barden ~ Gunn, Hernandez ~ Tzolis, Martin ~ Lees Melou, McCallum ~ Williams. None of those signings actually improved the squad.

Keeping those players would have allowed us to make four quality signings which actually did improve the first team.

It's very hard to make the argument that any of those players you've compared above are comparable in quality, with the possible exception of Hugill and Sargent (although if we think Josh has been bad as a wide forward, imagine what Hugill would look like there).

For example, if we think we're getting overrun in MF with Gilmour and PLM, just imagine how bad it'd be with Vrancic and Josh Martin (?!) in there instead.

Dross, as you put it, is not binary, there are fifty shades of dross.

[kingsway 94]

Kept Hugill, and Hernandez.

 

Loaned out Idah.

 

Not signed Sargent nor brought in the Chelsea whizkid on loan.

 

Normans decent but is a sick note so I'd of avoided him.

 

Signed a big striker, two big midfielders and another winger alongside Raschica and Tzollis. - All these signings would of preferably guys with English League experience.

 

But its easily said than done especially given the clubs transfer and wage cap and my lack of any experience in that sort of work!!

[East Rider 548]

You have to factor in we obviously didn't even know we needed a dedicated CDM until the start of this current campaign, and when Normman (not a CDM) eventually was persuaded to join on loan the vacancy (not a CDM one) was filled.

I mean, it's not as if for the last 3 years we have needed a CDM of our own and upgrades across the defence area.

So for starters I feel brining in a couple of CDM type units in midfield would have helped. 

Of course, we understand they are not just out there. Not for us it seems but for teams like Watford, Brentford, Bournmouth et al, they are. 

How inconvenient is that?

Mind you, at least we didn't start our latest chance in the hard fought PL race with  3 strikers, 2 of whome are not quite sure where the oppo goal is. Now that would be really silly. 

[Budapest Canary 152]

I fully agree that our summer recruitment was flawed - at least from the point of survival in the Prem. But maybe it wasn't the idea in the first place (or having failed to secure our original targets).   Tzolis, Sargent and to an extent Rashica might be expected to retain their values in a Prem setup due to their age and their involvement in their national teams better than Wolfsvinkel or Naismith did. So I see these signings as an attempt at damage limitation. Of course,  it would do a lot of good if they actually scored at least a couple of goals, regardless of survival.

[Clever Farke 64]

2 hours ago, Budapest Canary said:

I fully agree that our summer recruitment was flawed - at least from the point of survival in the Prem. But maybe it wasn't the idea in the first place (or having failed to secure our original targets).   Tzolis, Sargent and to an extent Rashica might be expected to retain their values in a Prem setup due to their age and their involvement in their national teams better than Wolfsvinkel or Naismith did. So I see these signings as an attempt at damage limitation. Of course,  it would do a lot of good if they actually scored at least a couple of goals, regardless of survival.

The idea may have been to have their values increase in the Champs as happened with Emi.  Knowing how long it takes players from abroad to settle (Vrancic, Stieperman and of course Emi etc). Only an utter fool would think these players would perform to the level required immediately. So Webber is either only interested in playing the long game or he is in fact an utter fool. 
 

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

I would have made defensive midfield, striker and centre back a priority, and used most of our transfer budget if the right players were found. With the benefit of hindsight, Webber went for quantity over quality. Another criticism I have is that we bought potential (such as Tzolis, who might be ‘flipped’ for a profit), when we needed players to hit the ground running.

I think we should have brought in genuine Premier League or EFL experience, and am convinced there are players who could have done just a good as the likes of Sargent etc at a fraction of the cost, from the lower leagues.

Edited December 30, 2021 by (Hoola)Han Solo

[birchfest 397]

So far my analysis is this on the current summer transfers:

 

Sargent: a good player if he had come through your own academy, puts himself about and adds work rate. However, Norwich were in the market for a striker capable of taking the work load off Pukki and add goals, he has so far threatened to do neither. Again, not a problem if he's 1 million from league 2 and we just want to hedge our bets. But its a serious transfer fee for a club our size and so far, you have to ask, would our season be different if he wasn't here? So far, no.

 

Tzolis:  you can see there is a lot of potential there, no doubt we felt we had to act fast to get the jump on other clubs doing so. Yet that sort of answers the question; other 'top sides' who were linked with him appeared to see it as too soon and too big a transition for the lad. I feel for him, I really do,  a new climate, league and language isn't easy and then the weight of expectation when he really is a medium to long term prospect for us. So fine, he will come good. Come good in time for us already being in the championship im afraid. That is a luxury a club outside cant afford to take and was something I thought we said we wouldn't be doing. 

 

Rashica: The best of the bunch or tied with Normann, but such a slow start to the season. We could see that he had gone off the boil last season and it was going to be a risk, would we get last years Milot or the one from the season before that was linked with Villa and Inter? Jury is out, but it could end up being too little too late. I have no idea if he would be willing to get stuck into a Championship  season, I expect him have some sort of release clause to allow for an easier exit. 

 

Normann: Equal best along with Rashica, but signed after the season had already started (I understand that was how the chips fell) and so was playing catch up, also his injury record appears true unfortunately. I think there is a quality CM there, but personally I think he needs to be next to a CDM as part of the 2 in a 4-2-3-1. He can do the defensive work to an extent, but I think he really should have been the upgrade on Kenny, rather than our attempt to replace Skipp.

 

PLM: On paper and reputation, sounded logical. What i've seen so far, not good enough to be a premier league player. Not an upgrade on Vrancic or to be honest Rupp. Was expecting much more in terms of forward drive and shots from outside the box, so far nothing stands out, beyond that horrific miss against Newcastle. 

 

Kabak: A good player in 2 or 3 years time. Can see why Liverpool didn't get him, too raw and no better than some of their own younger CBs. Right now for us, too much of a liability in many games and showed a lack of maturity that at least Smith appears to have stamped out partially. Not a first choice at the moment.

 

Gilmour: good player but the wrong fit for Norwich; filled a hole we didn't have and now our attempt to make it work is exposing the failings of the whole squad. Isnt a CDM and isn't a number 10.  Feel for the lad but then again, he will go back to Chelsea and this will just be an uncomfortable memory for him.

 

Gunn; seems a sentimental luxury, if its 2 million.. thats 2 million too much when we should hung on to Nyland or whatever he was called for free.

 

Who would I have got?

Chair from QPR as the like for like of Buendia, we could have got him I think for the same price as Tzolis and as part of the McCullum loan deal there. 

Ajer: I know he's injured now, but I think he would have been an upgrade and one ready to go in the top flight, big, strong and progressive in the pass. We want him, but decided we'd rather use the extra 4 million on PLM and get relegated I guess. 

Billing: there is the goal and forward thrust from midfield. He's now having a blinder and would cost more than the 15 million Michael Bailey seems to think we could have gotten him for. A massive 'what if' Im afraid, I'd trade the signing of Rashica, PLM and Gilmour to be honest. 

Armstrong or Roofe; Legitmate competition for Pukki, both can score and both could take Pukki's place. Would have cost a fair old whack, but its exactly what we needed to do. Pukki is getting older and we still haven't solved the problem we have had since 2018.

Hammer- CDM, an actual CDM.

 

5 Players: each between 8-20 million. It would have required a gamble or potentially selling max too, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Unfortunately we did the playing it safer gamble and its blowing up in our face. 

Edited December 30, 2021 by birchfest

[Mullet 293]

On 29/12/2021 at 14:08, Monty13 said:

Recently there’s been a lot of criticism of our summer work, and on evidence and in hindsight quite rightly IMO.

I was personally mainly cautiously optimistic in the summer, but the more I think about our ins and outs the more I think there’s glaring issues with not only who we let leave and got in but who we chose to keep in the squad.

The thing that really stands out to me is if you look at each decision individually you can argue it was a decent to good decision, I think the issue is collectively the overall strategy has failed badly.

Personally for me there’s four main issues with our business:

1. We didn’t replace Skipp and Tettey. Normann went part way to fill the gap but he was late in and not a like for like replacement for either.

2. We let Buendia go and didn’t replace him with another similar player who can get on the ball and make us tick. Buendia and Wes have done this for Norwich sides for the last 10 years, now there’s no one, we put faith in a 20 year old loanee to do this and he’s unsurprisingly struggling to fulfil that ask.

3. We turned over more of the playing squad than we needed to and spent money on players that were a luxury when finances are tight. Gunn being the obvious example for me. But Tzolis and Sargent I think are arguably in the same camp.

4. We brought in far too many young players with potential into an already young squad. Not enough signings were ready to go. Most had to not only adapt to the league and new country, but also fulfill their potential in a young team. That was always going to be a struggle at this level, a ridiculously tough ask.

For me I’d have done certain things differently now looking at what’s occurred:

Let’s assume Emi had to go (I still don’t 100% agree but I’ll just go with it for the benefit of the exercise) and let’s also assume players that had been loaned out last season like Klose, Drmic, Trybull etc. we’re never going to return to the squad. Also that we had to sign Giannoulis and Gibson.

I think I’d have done the following:

1. Kept Vrancic, Hugill, Hernandez and Nyland. Possibly Stiepermann depending on what exactly was going on there, he’s played 9 times this season. I don’t think we massively upgraded on any and having more players from the same squad would have been better for cohesion in my opinion and let money be spent in a more focussed way.

2. Loaned out Idah, of all our players he looks the most desperately in need of a run of games at Championship level to build confidence and develop.

3. Signed Rashica. Signed Normann (and paid a bit more to get him in earlier if possible).

4. Probably still loaned Williams, I think he’s done ok, offers good cover and may have done better if the team was.

5. Signed a journeyman experienced CB as cover for Gibson/Hanley/Omabamidele

6. Prioritised only three more signings either loan or permanent but all experienced/performing at Championship+ level. A strong DM, a midfield playmaker and a Striker and focussed all remaining resources on these.

Basically take the fees from Kabak, Gilmour, Tzolis, Sargent, Lees-Melou and Gunn and get in 4 players not 6. One or two 30+ and/or frees to keep fees down.

It wouldn’t have given us many assets to grow in value but I think it would have been far more likely to keep us up.

What about you guys? I know it’s the benefit of hindsight but how would you have approached Webber’s work differently?

In:

Christos Tzolis Left Winger	19	PAOK Salonika  Super League 1	£9.90m
Milot Rashica Right Winger	25	Werder Bremen  2. Bundesliga	£9.90m
Josh Sargent Centre-Forward	21	Werder Bremen  2. Bundesliga	£8.55m
Ben Gibson Centre-Back	28	Burnley  Premier League	£8.37m
Dimitrios Giannoulis Left-Back	25	PAOK Salonika  Super League 1	£6.75m
Pierre Lees-Melou Central Midfield	28	OGC Nice  Ligue 1	£5.40m
Angus Gunn Goalkeeper	25	Southampton  Premier League	£5.27m
Ozan Kabak Centre-Back	21	FC Schalke 04  2. Bundesliga	Loan fee: £3.60m
Mathias Normann Defensive Midfield	25	Rostov  Premier Liga	Loan fee: £1.80m
Billy Gilmour Central Midfield	20	Chelsea  Premier League	loan transfer
Brandon Williams Left-Back	20	Man Utd  Premier League	loan transfer
Flynn Clarke Attacking Midfield	18	Peterborough  Championship	?

Out:

Emiliano Buendía Right Winger	24	Aston Villa  Premier League	£34.56m
Tom Trybull Defensive Midfield	28	Hannover 96  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Mario Vrancic Central Midfield	32	Stoke City  Championship	free transfer
Marco Stiepermann Attacking Midfield	30	SC Paderborn  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Örjan Nyland Goalkeeper	30	Bournemouth  Championship	free transfer
Moritz Leitner Central Midfield	28	FC Zürich  Super League	free transfer
Philip Heise Left-Back	30	Karlsruher SC  2. Bundesliga	free transfer
Louis Thompson Defensive Midfield	26	Portsmouth  League One	free transfer
Sam McCallum Left-Back	20	QPR  Championship	loan transfer
Jordan Hugill Centre-Forward	29	West Brom  Championship	loan transfer
Onel Hernández Right Winger	28	Middlesbrough  Championship	loan transfer
Josh Martin Left Winger	19	MK Dons  League One	loan transfer
Danel Sinani Attacking Midfield	24	Huddersfield  Championship	loan transfer
Sebastian Soto Centre-Forward	20	FC Porto B  Liga Sabseg	loan transfer
Daniel Barden Goalkeeper	20	Livingston FC  Premiership	loan transfer
Daniel Adshead Central Midfield	19	Gillingham FC  League One	loan transfer
Aston Oxborough Goalkeeper	23	Barnet  National League	loan transfer
Akin Famewo Centre-Back	22	Charlton  League One	loan transfer

Any football club can make an error of judgement about signing a player. Sometimes a good footballer changes clubs and it doesn't work out. Our problem is we made 11 poor errors of judgement. Barely a single player purchased in the summer is premier league quality. Our recruitment team must be incompetent there is no other conclusion to be had. 

[Dr Greenthumb 746]

Danjuma for Emi.

Cashed in on Aaron’s and used a little of the cash for Bogle.

Two central midfielders that were hard working.

Another striker who has a goal scoring record.

Kept Nyland.

Cahill on a free.

[Mr Tea 105]

I’m starting to think that whilst we push names and numbers around the end result would have been the same. 
Not good enough for this league.

Maybe we would be a little better but I’m really starting to believe that without the vast sums of money needed to buy better quality players we are just  p******* in the wind .

Sure I’m not happy about it all but just starting to think it’s impossible. Sure you can maybe quote other clubs doing better than us on limited funds but I feel my point stands.

Money talks and we don’t have enough of it.