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Yellowhammer

Let’s get back to championship

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9 hours ago, Mengo said:

So your a championship supporter yes!

 

No, but it's likely that we'll always be a club that has at least the threat of relegation looming over us (unless we sell to a mega investor which I not sure could happen) and the model ensures that if the worst happens (relegation) it doesn't wreck us and we can bounce straight back.

If it was as easy as you imply then why aren't Forest, Wednesday, Derby, Hull, Sunderland and Bkackburn all mid table Premier League sides???

 

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Someone explain to me how "the model" works again. It seems to involve selling our best player on the cheap and pissing the proceeds up the wall by letting good players go on a free and replacing them with worse players for 8-10 million each.

This isn't about being the club being sustainable. This is just negligence. 

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5 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Someone explain to me how "the model" works again. It seems to involve selling our best player on the cheap and pissing the proceeds up the wall by letting good players go on a free and replacing them with worse players for 8-10 million each.

This isn't about being the club being sustainable. This is just negligence. 

I have long asked this and was flamed for it when we were riding high. It makes no sense on the pitch to sell your best stars to purchase players with future potential to sell at a later date- this makes you weaker not stronger as this season shows. It might satisfy the bank but it means you never really progress. It’s like being Crewe under Dario Gradi but one division higher.
 

A vision in which the club effectively waves a white flag on its own ambition and agrees to develop talent for better teams  

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The “model” is really just the emperors new clothes. It’s not groundbreaking and it’s borne out of necessity. It’s about Delia and Michael keeping hold of their train set which they picked up on the cheap and can’t actually afford to run really. It’s spun as some sort of innovation but they are not really doing anything different to what Chase did. 

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8 hours ago, The Bunny said:

Someone explain to me how "the model" works again. It seems to involve selling our best player on the cheap and pissing the proceeds up the wall by letting good players go on a free and replacing them with worse players for 8-10 million each.

This isn't about being the club being sustainable. This is just negligence. 

"The model"

Objective:

Stabilise in the Premier League without the need of a billionaire owner.

Motive:

Whilst billionaire take overs of Wolves, Leicester and ManC have worked wonders events at Sunderland, Hull, Blackburn, Portsmouth etc have caused more damage than good.

Methodology:

Invest in the roots. Prioritise long term strategising. Wipe out all debts, build up the facilities and academy, recruit talented teenagers and get them out on loan, sell players on for profit and plough that back in, plant a clear culture / philosophy at the club from top to bottom, scout for hidden gems abroad that won't bankrupt the budget, tie assets down to contracts that will see them depart on our terms, prepare the ground for the worst case scenario (relegation) by ensuring that immediate promotion is very likely the following season. Eventually, over time, probably after a few yo yos, the squad depth will be rich enough (and there'll always be a reasonable sum of cash to invest on new faces) we'll stick in the top flight, consolidate and build. It'll take time, patience, vision and perseverance but its success will eventually be the envy of most clubs in the pyramid who are sick and tired of boom and bust at best and stagnation at worst. In fact there are already plenty of clubs casting envious eyes at where we currently stand and the progress we've made.

How's it going:

Mixed! Its been great to see young homegrown talent sparkling in the canary colours again, we've lifted two EFL trophies, have some awesome memories, have watched some awesomely gifted players, have cleared all debts, have an awesome academy and training facilities and have a squad filled with internationals. In short, compared to where we were when Alex Neil departed, we are in a far far stronger position and we're still only in the opening phases of the model ... the best is yet to come!

However, the model depends on genius recruitment in order to make the selling of our best assets worth it (and tolerable!). Sadly, we've lost Buendia but the squad depth doesn't look better despite it. We can only pray that Rashica and Tzolis will blossom to their full potentials eventually. Whilst there's always a gamble with transfers (Fulham spent £100m a few years back and finished bottom!) this aspect of the model needs to improve to make it effective.

The long term obsession means that we still aren't competitive in the short term in the top tier. In fact we're often left looking well short and embarrassed. This severely damages the morale, happiness and patience of the fans (and probably the players) and it's interesting to see how Webber might change up his messaging a bit to recitify this. Perhaps some reminders about why we're doing what we're doing when we're doing it??? I think he's been burned by the scoffing from some quarters about the Top 26 Club objective and irritation about the Little Old Norwich perception that the model can give.

Additionally, as a fault, when you watch the boys on the pitch now you're left thinking - where is this deeply ingrained culture / philosophy / style of play?! We look miles short of 'greater than the sum of our parts'. Even under Farke Farkeball seemed to die following promotion. To be fair Smith needs time.

Finally (if you're still reading!) I would say that whilst I'm personally happy (and intrigued) to watch this play out (a roller coaster ride is better than the place we were heading when Neil was sacked) I worry that it's too ideological. If it fails (i.e we end up with a mid-table Championship campaign again at some point - shudder!) then it leaves us with few arguments against bringing in a billionaire owner left ... unless we accept that Premier League consolidation isn't a realistic objective for a club like ours. Just gotta find one first!

Edited by Cantiaci Canary
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I can’t quote your Sunderland et al bit above @Cantiaci Canary but I see this mentioned a lot. On one hand fans be like look at Man City, Leicester etc but then on the other there’s the warning for every Leicester there’s a Sunderland and Cardiff.

Its not as black and white as that though is it? It’s entirely dependent on the infrastructure in place, whether the boardroom staff know business AND football, whether finances are ticking over. 

I appreciate people use the examples above as a high level view but it’s an argument that’s more nuanced than just black and white. 

My feeling is the club (bar on field events) is in a healthier place across the board in terms of infrastructure, facilities, staff. It’s one of the reasons I don’t want Webber to leave, he’s got so much right which has righted the club from the days of portakabins at Colney. 

If there ever was a time for the club to be taken over, given what Webber has achieved, it’s now. Because I’m not sure fans can keep tolerating this limbo existence of Champ/Prem and being chastised in the Prem when promoted.

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30 minutes ago, Cantiaci Canary said:

However, the model depends on genius recruitment in order to make the selling of our best assets worth it (and tolerable!). Sadly, we've lost Buendia but the squad depth doesn't look better despite it.

This is the thing for me. I don’t think what the club did in the summer is good business, even if you’re looking to the future. We had a clearly valuable asset in Buendia and with the exception of Rashica, the players we brought in on the proceeds don’t look even close to the value we paid (I include Normann in that - he’s clearly crocked).

This leaves the club in a bad situation financially, and if people think we’re going to breeze the championship again with this bunch of journeymen, they’re in for a rude awakening. 

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21 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

I can’t quote your Sunderland et al bit above @Cantiaci Canary but I see this mentioned a lot. On one hand fans be like look at Man City, Leicester etc but then on the other there’s the warning for every Leicester there’s a Sunderland and Cardiff.

Its not as black and white as that though is it? It’s entirely dependent on the infrastructure in place, whether the boardroom staff know business AND football, whether finances are ticking over. 

I appreciate people use the examples above as a high level view but it’s an argument that’s more nuanced than just black and white. 

My feeling is the club (bar on field events) is in a healthier place across the board in terms of infrastructure, facilities, staff. It’s one of the reasons I don’t want Webber to leave, he’s got so much right which has righted the club from the days of portakabins at Colney. 

If there ever was a time for the club to be taken over, given what Webber has achieved, it’s now. Because I’m not sure fans can keep tolerating this limbo existence of Champ/Prem and being chastised in the Prem when promoted.

Yep ... everything you say is bang on the money for me - I couldn't agree more.

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20 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

This is the thing for me. I don’t think what the club did in the summer is good business, even if you’re looking to the future. We had a clearly valuable asset in Buendia and with the exception of Rashica, the players we brought in on the proceeds don’t look even close to the value we paid (I include Normann in that - he’s clearly crocked).

This leaves the club in a bad situation financially, and if people think we’re going to breeze the championship again with this bunch of journeymen, they’re in for a rude awakening. 

I suppose transfer dealings are always risky unless you're spending £50m on individuals. Emi was desperate to leave, we sold him for a lot more than we bought him for and we invested in a raft of new players that most fans were really excited about and may still come good.

Rashica may well save our season yet and Tzolis could click at any time and has a very high ceiling.

It's just a bummer to lose Emi and not be able to afford a like for like replacement to fill his shoes. 

Edited by Cantiaci Canary

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29 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

This is the thing for me. I don’t think what the club did in the summer is good business, even if you’re looking to the future. We had a clearly valuable asset in Buendia and with the exception of Rashica, the players we brought in on the proceeds don’t look even close to the value we paid (I include Normann in that - he’s clearly crocked).

This leaves the club in a bad situation financially, and if people think we’re going to breeze the championship again with this bunch of journeymen, they’re in for a rude awakening. 

When you say “journeymen” who do you mean? I only see PLM. And Rupp, who I believe is out of contract end of this season. As the others bought in the summer were with “potential” and development as prerequisites. 

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On 26/12/2021 at 16:46, Yellowhammer said:

Way out of league here never will be able to compete complete waste of time getting promoted if can’t compete 

Just so I understand,

Are you saying that IF (yes it's a big if) we get promoted next season, the club management refuse the the promotion and stay in the Champs??

 

If so, what players do you think will actually want to come here???

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3 minutes ago, SteveN8458 said:

Just so I understand,

Are you saying that IF (yes it's a big if) we get promoted next season, the club management refuse the the promotion and stay in the Champs??

 

If so, what players do you think will actually want to come here???

It was just a remark mate. Of course we would go up. But I think many of us feel what is happening now is becoming predictable. The money three or four clubs like us, is making it difficult for the other clubs in the Championship to compete with us. Just like we complain about in the EPL.

We are self sustaining at the moment because of payments. Take them away and we would be just like the rest of the Championship. And that would be a totally different self sustaining model without the same assurance that we could compete and probably be successful.

Until there is a change of ownership we will find it really down to luck. And that is not slagging off the owners. They can't help being poor (😂). Its just a fact of football life at the very top.

I have no doubt that if players like Rashica, Tzolis and PLM stay we will be very competitive next season in the Championship. Todd will flourish again. Max will torment defenders and Teemu will score 30 goals. And everything will be hunky dory until we find that the EPL has moved on yet another notch.

In fact, I think the best thing is for the EPL to be reduced to 16 teams.

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"The model"

Objective:

Stabilise in the Premier League without the need of a billionaire owner.

Whilst I totally support the concept of 'The Model', we are going backwards in very alarming fashion re the 'objective'.

The much castigated A Neil returned 34 points in the 2015/2016 season with 39 goals scored and 67 conceded. We are light years from those sunny uplands. Under Farke in 2019/2020 we slumped to a putrid 21 points. Conceded 75 and managing to score 13 (!) less goals. This attempt is on course for even worse. Only 10 points from 18 games so that's about on par with two years ago but a terrifying 8 goals only scored but 39 have been conceded already.

By any stretch of anyone's imagination, that is 'not progression', not in a million years.        

 

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It's impossible for us to be competitive in the Premier League in its current format without external investment, that's just the way it is and hopefully one day it will come.

If the EPL stayed still and didn't progress then we might have a chance to develop and work our way up, but it doesn't, every year it gets harder and harder. I don't even think a Super League would change anything as there will always be rich clubs looking to buy their way into it. The Championship and League One would be so diluted it would be even less competitive than it is now.

 

Edited by Capt. Pants

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3 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

"The model"

Objective:

Stabilise in the Premier League without the need of a billionaire owner.

Whilst I totally support the concept of 'The Model', we are going backwards in very alarming fashion re the 'objective'.

The much castigated A Neil returned 34 points in the 2015/2016 season with 39 goals scored and 67 conceded. We are light years from those sunny uplands. Under Farke in 2019/2020 we slumped to a putrid 21 points. Conceded 75 and managing to score 13 (!) less goals. This attempt is on course for even worse. Only 10 points from 18 games so that's about on par with two years ago but a terrifying 8 goals only scored but 39 have been conceded already.

By any stretch of anyone's imagination, that is 'not progression', not in a million years.        

 

Its not that long ago that we were competing in the EPL with Holt, Martin, Hoolahan, Howson, Johnson, Jackson, Pilkington, Bennett etc.

Do we attempt to look at home players anymore? Do they have to come from abroad with all its relevant problems? Is there no one player good enough in the Championship?

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1 hour ago, Danke bitte said:

When you say “journeymen” who do you mean? I only see PLM. And Rupp, who I believe is out of contract end of this season. As the others bought in the summer were with “potential” and development as prerequisites. 

Mid table championship players players in squad - Bryan, Gibson, Hanley, Rupp,  Zimmerman,  Dowell, Kabak, Sorensen,  McLean, Sargent, Gunn, Lees-melou, Giannoulis

Premiership players - Krul, Normann, Rashica, Pukki.

Young Potential - Aaron’s, Gilmour, Placheta, Cantwell, Tzolis, Williams, Mumba, Omobamidele.

League 1 - McGovern, Idah.

Most of the mid table championship players are journeyman.

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1 hour ago, simmo_2 said:

Mid table championship players players in squad - Bryan, Gibson, Hanley, Rupp,  Zimmerman,  Dowell, Kabak, Sorensen,  McLean, Sargent, Gunn, Lees-melou, Giannoulis

Premiership players - Krul, Normann, Rashica, Pukki.

Young Potential - Aaron’s, Gilmour, Placheta, Cantwell, Tzolis, Williams, Mumba, Omobamidele.

League 1 - McGovern, Idah.

Most of the mid table championship players are journeyman.

Gunn is a decent option for the Champ.


Gibson and Hanley are fine CB for the Championship and with Zimmermann as back up. 

Kabak will go back after loan is done.

Bryam is a good option for the Champs. Giannoulis will likely be off. 

Rupp, PLM and Rupp i agree with.

McLean can do a job in the Champs. Hoping we see more of Sorenson too. 

Sargent I really don’t know. I really don’t. Loan out to a bottom end Champ side would be a good idea so he has game time as I can’t see him getting a sniff leading the line with us. 

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5 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

It was just a remark mate. Of course we would go up. But I think many of us feel what is happening now is becoming predictable. The money three or four clubs like us, is making it difficult for the other clubs in the Championship to compete with us. Just like we complain about in the EPL.

We are self sustaining at the moment because of payments. Take them away and we would be just like the rest of the Championship. And that would be a totally different self sustaining model without the same assurance that we could compete and probably be successful.

Until there is a change of ownership we will find it really down to luck. And that is not slagging off the owners. They can't help being poor (😂). Its just a fact of football life at the very top.

I have no doubt that if players like Rashica, Tzolis and PLM stay we will be very competitive next season in the Championship. Todd will flourish again. Max will torment defenders and Teemu will score 30 goals. And everything will be hunky dory until we find that the EPL has moved on yet another notch.

In fact, I think the best thing is for the EPL to be reduced to 16 teams.

Although I was expecting Webber to keep us financially safe so we have no need to sell next summer I’m not so sure after spending £60m. I can’t see Todd or Max staying but I think if we manage to keep most of our new signings we should do well. Gunn will eventually replace Krul, Rashica would replace Buendia, I think Tzolis should do well, benefit massively from a season in the Championship and should hopefully replace Cantwell. Considering Lees-Melou has good experience in the French 1st tier I think he will also do well

Although I do believe Pukki will still be able to cut it in the Championship next season, I can’t quite see him as a possible contender for the golden boot and that next season will be his last. I think Sargent will cut it though and am hoping either him or Idah manages to replace him. Would like to see Rowe or Dickson-Peters sent out on loan

I’m not sure whether we will go straight back up yet as I think we have to wait and see which players stay, who leaves the Championship this season, and who joins us next season - at the moment I would like to see Fulham, WBA, and Blackburn go up, as if they do I think Bournemouth and Sheff Utd should struggle. Although I was hoping the likes of Newcastle, Villa and Leeds join us as I thought it would be a good laugh I think now I would prefer Burnley and Watford

Edited by HazzaJet

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On 27/12/2021 at 21:55, Cantiaci Canary said:

No, but it's likely that we'll always be a club that has at least the threat of relegation looming over us (unless we sell to a mega investor which I not sure could happen) and the model ensures that if the worst happens (relegation) it doesn't wreck us and we can bounce straight back.

If it was as easy as you imply then why aren't Forest, Wednesday, Derby, Hull, Sunderland and Bkackburn all mid table Premier League sides???

 

I just asked if you were a championship supporter. That's all!. Anyway you have some good posts on here. But I'm afraid I've just come back to the board for a look today and my god what a disgrace and absolute abusive sh**t has gone on over the last 24 hours. We are brining our self down to the lowest of lows just now. And now the club has to make an apology. Sad times.

 

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Off topic but there seems to be common thought - I'd take a 16 team EPL as long as there was a separate competition (Carabao?) and a route to go to Europe for the top sides in the EFL. I mean if Dundalk, Connah's Key Nomads and Linfield get to go to Europe surely there's an argument for EFL  accommodation. 

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