Should we sell Max?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

3 minutes ago, Ward 3 said:

Sell and reinvest all the money on a striker or 2

We need a long term replacement for Pukki anyway. He's not getting any younger

[Ward 3 372]

Just now, The Great Mass Debater said:

We need a long term replacement for Pukki anyway. He's not getting any younger

Yeah but we go idah or Sargent... joking 

 

I can't really name any amazing striker we could go for. Only one I really see us being a pull to is ben brereton  22 years old from Blackburn. Lets hope they nose dive this season and he wants to leave.

[HazzaJet 252]

We know both Aarons and Cantwell will be gone by next summer as we will need to balance the cheque books. Although I thought Cantwell would improve once Farke had gone, it now looks like he’s just got an attitude problem.

I think we could get £25-30m for Max, and I don’t care who we sell him to. Mumba’s already shown he can fill his boots in the Championship, and if he gets a season of regular first team football for us in the Championship I think he could even turn as good as Max. McCallum did well on loan at Coventry last season and although out injured at the moment I think should do quite well for us after two seasons of Championship loan. We already have Byram, also Williams this season, and I do believe Sorensen and Rupp can be used in an emergency. Although naturally a left sided player, I also expect Giannoulis can if necessary

If we sell him next month I can’t see us managing to invest the money in a player that granted us survival next summer though, so would rather we either saved the money ready for next season or leave his sale until the summer

Edited December 21, 2021 by HazzaJet

[AJ 1,218]

I would say not until the summer. It's likely this will be a quiet window, I imagine as above both Todd and Max will be looking to move on if we inevitably get relegated, better to reinvest in a squad able to compete in the championship as taking away Todd (when he's in form) and Normann I think we'll be in for a tough job of getting promoted again

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

Max is one of the few players we have with genuine Premier League quality. Utter nonsense to sell one of our best players. Have we not learned anything from the sale of Emi?

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

if we sell I doubt we'd invest it all in player strengthening so no from me...

[Monty13 2,231]

4 hours ago, HazzaJet said:

Back in the summer he was linked to Leeds and Villa. There was also rumour about Newcastle showing interest earlier this season

Pretty sure the club confirmed there was no actual approaches for Cantwell. 

[Google Bot 3,275]

1 hour ago, HazzaJet said:

I thought Cantwell would improve once Farke had gone, it now looks like he’s just got an attitude problem.

I'd say a confidence issue, but regardless there is a problem that's affecting his on field displays for sure.  Looked good in training with the latest upload on the youtube chan though.  Think his family are Arsenal supporters, perhaps he'll be part of Sunday and show what he's got?

[Monty13 2,231]

5 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Our only rival is points on the board, doesn't matter a **** what other teams do if you're not hitting at least 38 pts yourself, spend no time worrying about others or you'll get caught gazing.  

If the only way for Smith to get money and bring in quality that he needs is by selling Max, then so be it - He's not improving with us, and started to stale under Farke.  I have no doubts that letting him progress and us investing elsewhere on the field is a benefit to all involved.

I mean that’s just not true, we literally have to be better than 3 teams, helping out one in any way isn’t a good move.
People are seriously underrating Max, he’s probably our only genuinely sellable asset for a reason. I can’t believe people don’t see how consistent he is. 

I don’t understand why people think he’s so easily replaced, especially when the alternatives are someone completely unproven, someone out of position and someone who hasn’t played first team football in 2 years.

[Google Bot 3,275]

13 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I mean that’s just not true, we literally have to be better than 3 teams

You survive by picking up enough points, it doesn't matter if we're 'better' than Newcastle or not. 

You couldn't even define who we are to be better than come the end of the season it's a completely moving target.  Whereas, 38 points is an objective and professional target to plan the remaining season for survival.

At that point, you focus on increasing the effectiveness of your own squad - it doesn't matter about one team that you will play once more.

 

14 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I don’t understand why people think he’s so easily replaced

Then ask yourself what would be most catastrophic.  Losing Max to injury for rest of the season, or Pukki?

Pretty sure those you don't understand are a few pages, if not a chapter ahead of your thinking.  It's simply about squad management, and how we can improve.  Taking Newcastle's money 'If' we could milk them is a lifeline, not a concern.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

43 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

muI mean that’s just not true, we literally have to be better than 3 teams, helping out one in any way isn’t a good move.
People are seriously underrating Max, he’s probably our only genuinely sellable asset for a reason. I can’t believe people don’t see how consistent he is. 

I don’t understand why people think he’s so easily replaced, especially when the alternatives are someone completely unproven, someone out of position and someone who hasn’t played first team football in 2 years.

He's consistent yes, consistently putting in 6.5 / 10 performances. He's not really been a 'stand out' player for me this season, though I appreciate he's probably one of our better averaging players when you look at the season as a whole (with the likes of Krul and Pukki). He's sort of become a Mr. Reliable type. Not pulling up any trees with any outstanding individual games just consistently putting in a decent shift week in, week out. 

Whereas with the other fullbacks:

Giannoulis was our best player versus Liverpool in the opening game, came on against Newcastle and created the equaliser, looked very dangerous versus United. 

Williams defended like a lion at Arsenal, put in an almost perfect display at Brentford and was probably the stand out player versus Spurs. 

When I think of Aarons I can't really think of many games where he's been our standout player, he played quite well against Southampton / Wolves if I remember rightly but nothing really that got me out of my seat.

Obviously on the very obvious flipside is the fact that he's not really had a stinker of a game either, whereas the former 2 have probably had as many shocking games as well they have excellent ones. Furthermore it has been noticeable that opposition teams appear to end up breaking through our left hand side much more than on Aarons' side (I'm thinking Watford, Man City, Leeds here as just a few examples but this was also noted last season in the champs).

So I don't think people see him as dispensable without some kind of cost to the team, clearly there is going to be one and we will most definitely be downgrading on any replacement.

It is more a question of whether we can improve well enough in other areas on the pitch to create an overall stronger side. 

If we could say buy the Skipp replacement and a strong option for the right wing with the £25 million, and be left with Williams at RB and Giannoulis at LB (with Mumba, Sorensen, Omobamidele and Byram as back ups), then I'd take that although we'd look light at full-back - perhaps another loan in for the return of Gilmour as well?

However knowing how unsuccessful our recruitment was in the summer and how poorly the Buendia rebuild has been, what's to say we will get it right? Previously I would've been more confident. 

But looking at how the season has come to this far then I'm inclined to say **** it lets roll the dice... 

Edited December 21, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler

[Monty13 2,231]

40 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

You survive by picking up enough points, it doesn't matter if we're 'better' than Newcastle or not. 

You couldn't even define who we are to be better than come the end of the season it's a completely moving target.  Whereas, 38 points is an objective and professional target to plan the remaining season for survival.

At that point, you focus on increasing the effectiveness of your own squad - it doesn't matter about one team that you will play once more.

 

Then ask yourself what would be most catastrophic.  Losing Max to injury for rest of the season, or Pukki?

Pretty sure those you don't understand are a few pages, if not a chapter ahead of your thinking.  It's simply about squad management, and how we can improve.  Taking Newcastle's money 'If' we could milk them is a lifeline, not a concern.

By be better than three teams I obviously meant finish with more points than them. If our goal is 38 points so is theirs, help them get to their goal and suddenly our goal is no longer sufficient. 38 points is a massive ask btw we don’t want any chance of our survival target being increased.

I don’t disagree with your points around selling Max in terms of who is the more valuable player to the squad and if we need the funds.

I just don’t think A) We have a match fit ready replacement that won’t make us even more vulnerable at the back B) we should be selling him to a rival club.

I understand where people are coming from and I’m ok with selling him (it’ll happen anywhere in the summer) it’s just to whom and how we cover that gap that concerns me. I’m unconvinced we have his replacement in the building which means spending at least some of the money on a RB.

Ultimately though this all assumes there’s a player of enough quality to change our fortunes prepared to permanently join a relegation favourite. I think anyone who requires us to sell Max to fund the transfer wouldn’t join us personally, in which case selling him becomes pointless.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

It’s a team game, Aaron’s has had nothing in front of him all season (ie. a player showing any form or consistency).    Recognise that when analysing his performances defensively and offensively since it’s very fundamental to his game!

As a team we’ve generally failed to function, expectations of Max are clearly unreasonable by fans.   The idea is surely to improve the team by improving our weaker positions to ensure players like Max can excel.    Byram can’t be trusted to remain fit, Mumba probably needs a loan like Adam Idah to get to the level and unfortunately Williams is an out and out defender and suffocates the left sided players by getting too wide then isn’t able to find the player further forward…. (See Tzolis v Newcastle, Cantwell v Villa).   He doesn’t look good enough technically to suggest it would be different down the right.    In our predicament we need to have a threat going forward and Aaron’s and Giannoulis have potential to provide that, only Mumba out of the other available options has that potential.    Better off sending Williams back as playing for 0-0’s seems pointless now.   That way we could bring in another loan player further forward. 
Need to find a balance where the full-backs can overlap.    Note, how deep they are when receiving the ball…. It’s because our central midfielders aren’t good enough to receive the ball on the turn and play through…. Only Normann has the ability to turn in that area.    So, it goes wide too often, is predictable and easy to defend, then we go backwards.   

No amount of money in this league is going to resolve the problems we face, it needs certain players to stay fit (Pukki, Normann, Rashica, Aaron’s, at least 3 centre-halfs),    It needs Giannoulis to play more often for some balance and threat and someone alongside Normann who can receive the ball and play then do the defensive bit.    Not sure that’s Sorensen’s game but he deserves a crack at it over McLean.    
 

Rather than sell Aaron’s, prefer to return Williams and Gilmour and look at different loan options.
 

[lake district canary 4,531]

3 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Rather than sell Aaron’s, prefer to return Williams and Gilmour and look at different loan options.

This^^^   I do not see the point in having Williams and Gilmour here when they are not actually that good compared to others we have and we are not functioning well as a team. I'd rather see Mumba as back up to Aarons or Giannoulis, with Sorensen able to step in anywhere on the pitch to cover too.

[kirku 1,332]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I just don’t think A) We have a match fit ready replacement that won’t make us even more vulnerable at the back B) we should be selling him to a rival club.

Williams on the right and Dimi on the left is a good option - *if* we were able to use the hypothetical Aarons money to take some scoring burden off Pukki

[Google Bot 3,275]

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

By be better than three teams I obviously meant finish with more points than them. If our goal is 38 points so is theirs, help them get to their goal and suddenly our goal is no longer sufficient. 38 points is a massive ask btw we don’t want any chance of our survival target being increased.

Any team scoring above 38 points is going to be a help to us as they will be taking points from others.  If we refuse to boost our attack this window through fear of who may be bottom 3 today, that's the most illogical approach imaginable, surely?!

Statistically, 85% chance of survival if you get to 37 pts, 94% if you get to 38 pts.  When you're planning a path to survival it's so incredibly easy to be objective and setting clear mandates as to where you should be.  Pie in the sky/look over your shoulder approach and relying on other results is not a plan for survival. 

At least, it's not how I'd approach the season and sure hope Smith and Webber aren't.  They should have a clear expectancy after each game, and focusing on us to provide the best chance of achieving that. 

9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

I understand where people are coming from and I’m ok with selling him (it’ll happen anywhere in the summer) it’s just to whom and how we cover that gap that concerns me. I’m unconvinced we have his replacement in the building which means spending at least some of the money on a RB.

Dimi and Williams would be a marked improvement (in my opinion of course).  The desire and fight they bring to the team is unparalleled, Max is going through the motions and needs a change - it's really clear for anyone who's watched us for past couple of seasons how his form and desire to get forward has dipped.

I would've proudly said he's a 30m player in the past, don't know about you, but feels half that to me right now?

Not really looked the same since his injury last season, has been overplayed and certainly lacks the skill of Emi who he could work with previously - Pretty sure that mentally, he's done here and needs a move for his own career.

[NorfBhoy66 7]

He is currently the only one with any value

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

12 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Taking Newcastle's money 'If' we could milk them is a lifeline, not a concern.

 

You could argue Newcastle would be strengthening us if they gave us £30m for a right back we then used to buy x3 £10m players in vital areas

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

If we did sell to Newcastle (and who knows if they're even interested) we have three reasons to think they'll pay more than other teams would.

 

1. They have form for overpaying for players - especially from us

2. They're the richest club in the world. They know every team knows that so will demand they pay over the odds

3. We can legitimately state we dont want to sell to a relegation rival and if they want him, they must pay over the odds for him

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

Just reading about Ferran Torres going to Barcelona. Had me wondering, is there an argument that we made a mistake not allowing Aarons to move to Barcelona.

Hear me out.

We said no because there wasnt a compulsory option. £20m I think was the mooted fee, but only optional.

 

Yes Max was vital to our Championship win, but might him going to Barcelona have allowed Mumba the chance to develop at Championship level without this being a major hinderance to our championship push - the result being Mumba being ready for first team football this season and with a season at Barcelona on his CV Aarons' profile being even higher.

Even if Aarons didnt succeed and Barcelona and they passed on buying him, a season in La Liga, with their coaching is likely to have developed him further and make him a more saleable asset.

[Ward 3 372]

Just seen somewhere matt Doherty has been told he can leave spurs. Sell max and get him in? Or wages and fees too high? 

[Chip20 69]

On 22/12/2021 at 11:22, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

You could argue Newcastle would be strengthening us if they gave us £30m for a right back we then used to buy x3 £10m players in vital areas

Haven't we already tried buying x3 £10m players in vital areas and the evidence so far is that this doesn't help? 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

5 hours ago, Chip20 said:

Haven't we already tried buying x3 £10m players in vital areas and the evidence so far is that this doesn't help? 

If you buy sh*t ones yes. The trick is to try not to

[Samwam27 527]

With Normann on the sidelines for forseeable future, id be inclined to free up that spot, and also let Max go. A couple of solud £10m signings could transform our season, and keeping max isnt going to save our season 

[Highland Canary 76]

The disposal of our best playing assets is a key part of our financial strategy. Only with new equity might our apparent ambition be lifted beyond that of a 20th place PL finish.