Defending

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

Was just watching the highlights of the Villa game as I missed an apparent McLean moment as my stream died. Was watching Villa's goals as I really dont understand how either of them became goals.

Firstly the Ramsey goal. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXJ9p2G6hQQ&t=23s

Hopefully I have time-stamped that correctly - but watch the move. Ramsey running forward. By about 10 yards from the penalty area Max is goal-side of Ramsey. He has Gibson covering, so can attempt a tackle, he's not last man, if he co-cks it up it's not a free run on goal, it's not a red card. Gibson takes over as main defender, but instead of standing up to Ramsey, knowing Aarons is there, so same scenario if he puts in a tackle and co-cks it up he has Aarons to cover. But instead he runs with him, backs off, backs off, allows him to get his shot off and then tries to block the shot. What is he thinking? Why isnt it 'put a tackle in!'? Why isnt it 'dont let him shoot!'? It seems to be 'dont put a challenge in, try to block the shot'. Which I dont get. Are they scared of giving away a foul?

If either Aarons or Gibson were the last man, Id say what they actually did was the best they could do. But they're not. Both have the opportunity to put in the challenge and snuff Ramsey out. Instead they both merely escort him to our goal and offer him a complimentary opportunity to shoot. I dont get it. They may as well not be there so little did they impede Ramsey's attack on our goal. There is no way he should ever have been given the freedom of the fine city like he was. Id also have to criticise Sorensen's rather half-hearted tracking back knowing this proved to be a goal.

 

The Watkins goal

https://youtu.be/kXJ9p2G6hQQ?t=98

Again hope I have timestamped it right

Aarons horribly out of position with Villa in possession. I think the first picture at the bottom says it all.

Our RIGHT BACK is our second highest player up the pitch, leaving a massive Aaron's-shaped hole in our defence which Gilmour doesnt seem to have read, or the back 4 havent communicated to anyone else. Chukwuemeka is about 5 yards goal side of Gilmour, and Watkins the scorer, has 5 yards on Williams. Both played onside by our CBs. I mean I know the days of the flat-back 4 are long gone, but there seems to be no attempt to play the offside trap, or conversely to stay goal-side of attckers. I mean these are football defensive basics arent they? Gilmour on catching up with Chukwuemeka makes a half-hearted attempt to dispossess him and on failing makes no real effort to get goal side of him and just jogs home alongside him, happy to pass him on to (Sorensen?) but that freedom allows him to cross to the danger area.

The second picture shows Williams still hasnt woken up and Id estimate Watkins now has 10 yards on him and essentially just has to wait at the back post for a simple tap in. His face says it all, it looks to me like 'I cant believe how easy that was'. Gibson moves into no-mans land offering very little defensively, not able to cut out the cross, and though not relevant, but still poor defending, leaves his man in acres of space free to convert any cut-back played to him.

 

It's just terrible terrible defending. How can we be that bad??

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by The Great Mass Debater

[cambridgeshire canary 6,675]

To be fair the whole 'not tackling players and letting them run into the box' is somethng that has been happening quite often and I just don't understand why. The players honestly look scared to even try and tackle players anywhere near the box, nevermnd in it

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

Look at that first picture. Defensvely we are all over the place. CBs playing the attackers offside. 'Fullbacks' also seemingly playing the attacker offside, but not holding a good defensive line so of course the relevent players are onside. 

So are we playing offside or not? I cant tell.

If you're not in an organised defensive line, you cant rely on the offside rule to invalidate the attacking players. CBs probably appropriately playing the striker off - who stays out of the move. But what the hell are Gilmour and Williams doing? You could make the argument to excuse Gilmour as he's only filling in for the absent Aarons - but not very well, and how can ANY professional footballer, irrepective of their position, not know such a football basic? Williams not doing the defensive basics at all. Not goalside, relying on offside when not playing in a good defensive line, not reactng and getting goalside as soon as possible. And to cap it all they all appeal for offside when Watkins taps it in.

Its disgraceful defending. Just awful, awful defending.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

27 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

To be fair the whole 'not tackling players and letting them run into the box' is somethng that has been happening quite often and I just don't understand why. The players honestly look scared to even try and tackle players anywhere near the box, nevermnd in it

Have they been coached this way? Do they not have that as a natural instinct and is this not being coached into them? Are they scared to concede a foul? Are they over-valuing staying on their feet?

Im sorry but I dont think either of those Villa goals should be goals. We've let them score with ease through terrible defending. I ask again, how can we be so bad at defending? It's not physical attributes like when we couldnt defend corners (see van Dijk heading home last time round in the Prem) - this is decision making, positioning and organisation. 

[overthebordercanary 140]

Just now, The Great Mass Debater said:

Have they been coached this way? Do they not have that as a natural instinct and is this not being coached into them? Are they scared to concede a foul? Are they over-valuing staying on their feet?

Im sorry but I dont think either of those Villa goals should be goals. We've let them score with ease through terrible defending. I ask again, how can we be so bad at defending? It's not physical attributes like when we couldnt defend corners (see van Dijk heading home last time round in the Prem) - this is decision making, positioning and organisation. 

Ever since I started watching Norwich, in the 90's it has always been the way that any opposition player who runs/dribbles with the ball will never get tackled (majority of the time leading to a goal conceded) 

Any other side as mentioned will commit the foul as they have cover, so at worst will get get a yellow card, or more likely the ref will have a word. 

[Newtopia 517]

We are naive at the back, and a lot of it is solvable.  Skipp read the game fantastically, that can be taught, so the real question is who do you get in to help with that.

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

Well that looks like Gibbo trying to play Watkins offside when he's looking along the line at Sorensen behind him!

[Petriix 2,834]

You've picked out the defence, which I can understand. But I'd blame the midfield. Gilmour should be putting in a robust challenge for both and either winning the ball or fouling his man. It's amateur.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,675]

14 minutes ago, Petriix said:

You've picked out the defence, which I can understand. But I'd blame the midfield. Gilmour should be putting in a robust challenge for both and either winning the ball or fouling his man. It's amateur.

Give Gilmour a break not his fault he's 5ft 2

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

Its almost as if our two central defenders have never played together in that position before.................. oh.......................... wait....................

[Newtopia 517]

56 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Give Gilmour a break not his fault he's 5ft 2

He is supposed to be a world class midfielder, just needs to learn to loss the ball less often, and win the ball more often.  I do not remember height stopping Kanye, or Deschamp from tackling.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

20 minutes ago, Newtopia said:

He is supposed to be a world class midfielder, just needs to learn to loss the ball less often, and win the ball more often.  I do not remember height stopping Kanye, or Deschamp from tackling.

How many Premier League games (or games at that level) had Deschamps or Kante* played at the age of 20?

*Presume you mean Kante and not Kanye West. 

[Yellow Wal 314]

56 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Give Gilmour a break not his fault he's 5ft 2

I realise it's tongue in cheek (well I hope so) but do you think any of the below would have been so inept at tackling when the ball had to be won or the player stopped?

Billy Bremner 5ft 5ins

Paul Scholes 5ft 6ins

N'Golo Kante 5ft 6ins

Fred 5ft 7ins

Billy Gilmour 5ft 7ins (he just seems 5ft 2ins)

[Monty13 2,229]

4 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Was just watching the highlights of the Villa game as I missed an apparent McLean moment as my stream died. Was watching Villa's goals as I really dont understand how either of them became goals.

Firstly the Ramsey goal. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXJ9p2G6hQQ&t=23s

Hopefully I have time-stamped that correctly - but watch the move. Ramsey running forward. By about 10 yards from the penalty area Max is goal-side of Ramsey. He has Gibson covering, so can attempt a tackle, he's not last man, if he co-cks it up it's not a free run on goal, it's not a red card. Gibson takes over as main defender, but instead of standing up to Ramsey, knowing Aarons is there, so same scenario if he puts in a tackle and co-cks it up he has Aarons to cover. But instead he runs with him, backs off, backs off, allows him to get his shot off and then tries to block the shot. What is he thinking? Why isnt it 'put a tackle in!'? Why isnt it 'dont let him shoot!'? It seems to be 'dont put a challenge in, try to block the shot'. Which I dont get. Are they scared of giving away a foul?

If either Aarons or Gibson were the last man, Id say what they actually did was the best they could do. But they're not. Both have the opportunity to put in the challenge and snuff Ramsey out. Instead they both merely escort him to our goal and offer him a complimentary opportunity to shoot. I dont get it. They may as well not be there so little did they impede Ramsey's attack on our goal. There is no way he should ever have been given the freedom of the fine city like he was. Id also have to criticise Sorensen's rather half-hearted tracking back knowing this proved to be a goal.

 

 

Max isn’t close enough to him to make a challenge and doesn’t get goal side until he’s in the penalty area. Gibson is the last man till Max overtakes Ramsey and gets goalside which is just on the edge of the area.

There’s a split second Gibson can put a tackle in when he’s about yard outside the area and Max is just cutting in front, but it’s literally a split second.

Whoever completely sells themself by going in hard on their player who lays it off to Ramsey leaves the gap. Can’t work out exactly who it is, think it’s Kabak? Also Sorensen is very slow to see the danger. He’s at least 5 yards behind Ramsey as this starts to play out and by the time he spots the run he’s completely left for dust.

I feel blaming Aarons or Gibson is harsh, they should have done better but the damage was done on the half way line.

[Newtopia 517]

6 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

How many Premier League games (or games at that level) had Deschamps or Kante* played at the age of 20?

*Presume you mean Kante and not Kanye West. 

You are right Kante (blasted autocorrect), who had a slow start, yet Deschamp was playing in the top French league at 18 - was around 60 games at the same age as Gilmour is now.

Gilmour has played 30 ish first team games, and turns 21 in June.

[Yellow Wal 314]

5 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Max isn’t close enough to him to make a challenge and doesn’t get goal side until he’s in the penalty area. Gibson is the last man till Max overtakes Ramsey and gets goalside which is just on the edge of the area.

There’s a split second Gibson can put a tackle in when he’s about yard outside the area and Max is just cutting in front, but it’s literally a split second.

Whoever completely sells themself by going in hard on their player who lays it off to Ramsey leaves the gap. Can’t work out exactly who it is, think it’s Kabak? Also Sorensen is very slow to see the danger. He’s at least 5 yards behind Ramsey as this starts to play out and by the time he spots the run he’s completely left for dust.

I feel blaming Aarons or Gibson is harsh, they should have done better but the damage was done on the half way line.

Two points, 1) yes it was Kabak who went in hard on the half way line and 2) it was Placheta who Ramsey left just inside his own half. Is not Placheta our fastest player? He was a good 10 to 20 yards behind Ramsay when he scored.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

You've picked out the defence, which I can understand. But I'd blame the midfield. Gilmour should be putting in a robust challenge for both and either winning the ball or fouling his man. It's amateur.

I've included Gilmour as part of the defence as he should be covering for Max as he is out of position.

Im pretty sure it is Gilmour who concedes possession for the Ramsey goal as well, though that's probably a harsh criticism as he was well up the pitch.

But world-beater, international superstar Gilmour is certainly making plenty of mistakes

[Capt. Pants 4,195]

Having watched the Arsenal tonight I very much hope the match is postponed!

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

45 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

Max isn’t close enough to him to make a challenge and doesn’t get goal side until he’s in the penalty area. Gibson is the last man till Max overtakes Ramsey and gets goalside which is just on the edge of the area.

There’s a split second Gibson can put a tackle in when he’s about yard outside the area and Max is just cutting in front, but it’s literally a split second.

 

I disagree. I think either of them has the opportunity to put in a challenge. Even an unsuccessful challenge might put Ramsey off, make him need to adjust his feet, anything to disrupt his play. If its a foul, because of the presence of the other Norwich player I dont think either would be considered last man so wouldnt be looking at a red card. 

And a split second is all you need when your reflex or instinct is 'put a tackle in'

[Monty13 2,229]

34 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

Two points, 1) yes it was Kabak who went in hard on the half way line and 2) it was Placheta who Ramsey left just inside his own half. Is not Placheta our fastest player? He was a good 10 to 20 yards behind Ramsay when he scored.

To ge fair Placheta makes an unsuccessful attempt to win the ball and loses 3-4 yards on Ramsey at that point. He should race to catch him but A) in theory there’s plenty of cover and B) pretty sure Placheta isn’t fully fit.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

Interesting. I wasnt listening to the commentary, but the commentator says 'Ramsey. He was allowed to run and run...'

[Monty13 2,229]

3 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

I disagree. I think either of them has the opportunity to put in a challenge. Even an unsuccessful challenge might put Ramsey off, make him need to adjust his feet, anything to disrupt his play. If its a foul, because of the presence of the other Norwich player I dont think either would be considered last man so wouldnt be looking at a red card. 

And a split second is all you need when your reflex or instinct is 'put a tackle in'

Fair, Max could put a challenge in and take the yellow, he’s never going to win the ball from his relative position outside the area is my point so it’s completely cynical if he does.

Gibson I agree, he should put the tackle in and take the hit, worst case would be a yellow and/or he still scores. Games are lost on split second decisions, but I just think he shouldn’t be put in that position from a 1-2 in their half.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

41 minutes ago, Yellow Wal said:

Two points, 1) yes it was Kabak who went in hard on the half way line and 2) it was Placheta who Ramsey left just inside his own half. Is not Placheta our fastest player? He was a good 10 to 20 yards behind Ramsay when he scored.

 

Placheta's top recorded speed is 21.88 mph. I cite this as this is only just behind Adama Traore so far this season (22.12mph). And Traore can do this...

 

 

[Petriix 2,834]

3 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

I've included Gilmour as part of the defence as he should be covering for Max as he is out of position.

Im pretty sure it is Gilmour who concedes possession for the Ramsey goal as well, though that's probably a harsh criticism as he was well up the pitch.

But world-beater, international superstar Gilmour is certainly making plenty of mistakes

Gilmour lost the ball on the right wing, deep in the Villa half. That's where he should have put in a foul to prevent the counter. He needs to realise that, if he's committed that high up the pitch, there's a hole he's left behind him. A simple foul to prevent an overload, it's hardly rocket surgery.

The second goal, Gilmour makes a weak attempt to win the ball but doesn't commit. If he takes man and ball, he might get booked, but it might just be a free kick which we can defend. Instead he leaves his man a free run into the box.

It's this side of his game that makes him a liability. Less of a problem with a solid defence behind him, but we're fragile and have to rely on everyone doing their job for it to work. It almost wouldn't matter if he was making up for it at the other end of pitch with goals assists, but he's not.

 

[Don’t be Krul 398]

It struck me with Dean Smith at Villa that their results went downhill coinciding with John Terry's departure. Does anyone know what happened there? Is getting Terry in as a defensive coach an option?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

13 hours ago, Petriix said:

Gilmour lost the ball on the right wing, deep in the Villa half. That's where he should have put in a foul to prevent the counter. He needs to realise that, if he's committed that high up the pitch, there's a hole he's left behind him. A simple foul to prevent an overload, it's hardly rocket surgery.

The second goal, Gilmour makes a weak attempt to win the ball but doesn't commit. If he takes man and ball, he might get booked, but it might just be a free kick which we can defend. Instead he leaves his man a free run into the box.

It's this side of his game that makes him a liability. Less of a problem with a solid defence behind him, but we're fragile and have to rely on everyone doing their job for it to work. It almost wouldn't matter if he was making up for it at the other end of pitch with goals assists, but he's not.

 

See this is what I've often wondered about loan players. Are they committed? Are they team players? Gilmour is here for selfish reasons. He's here to use us as a platform to get football, increase his stock. Is he therefore willing to take one for the team if he doesnt give a sh*t about the team? He's here to advance himself as an individual. He's on his way back to Chelsea next season so what do Norwich's fortunes mean to him? He's not going to be condemned to championship football. He's not looking at being sold on relegation and having to uproot in the way a more established player might.

So what is in it for him to take one for the team? A booking? A red card?

Far better to swan about, try outrageous passes and attempt worldies for your youtube highlights reel than sacrifice yourself for the good of the team.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,078]

5 hours ago, Don’t be Krul said:

It struck me with Dean Smith at Villa that their results went downhill coinciding with John Terry's departure. Does anyone know what happened there? Is getting Terry in as a defensive coach an option?

Terry left because he wants to be a manager