Farke vs Smith

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

3 hours ago, king canary said:

It largely smells of a group of people who didn't want Farke gone, didn't want Smith in and have been waiting for a crap performance to jump all over.

Not entirely - if that was all it was then it would have happened after the Newcastle game 😀

[Thumbbass 318]

Definitely feels like the burden on the defence has been lifted in terms of playing out. It had gotten painful and we were pressed in far too easily, even given Farke's apparent pragmatism towards the final few games.

Under DS we're better competing for second balls and generally winning the scraps. Man Utd was a game where anything that was loose in the midfield was ours. Under Farke we seemed very passive when not in possession.

DS has been dealt a heavy blow in losing the players he's lost at key moments. We'd have turned over Newcastle with Rashica and Normann in the team, and the Villa result was a return to men against boys but given the available players it was no surprise. Yes, we'll probably get relegated but I do believe we had a better chance of staying up with DS than DF.

As for Champs. Completed it mate.

[Petriix 2,834]

25 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

I disagree though about the progress and that the squad won't do well in the Championship (regretfully I do think relegation is inevitable). I think the current squad overall is better than last seasons, and I think our squads have been improved year on year. The division we are in is almost academic in terms of that progress being made - we are doing what we can do, in buying several £5-£10m players. We've been here before and went for more "quality" in Naismith, RVW, Klose etc - that didn't work either. So I agree with Webber that if you buy several at £5 to £10m you have a reasonable hope of some of them being worth it.

Interesting that you see it that way. I like your optimism, but I'm struggling to see it. I think the squad is weaker now than even three seasons ago. We're missing the key creative players as well as any kind of defensive midfield. I'm probably just feeling miserable rather than looking with any degree of objectivity.

3 hours ago, Monty13 said:

6 games is not a sample size big enough to compare the two especially when you look at the teams available to both in that period.

It was simply a reflection that they had a near identical record rather than anything else; that and how we ended on the up under Farke and appear to be getting worse under Smith. I accept it's not a massive sample, but we're running out of 'winnable' games - where do you think the 8 wins and 6 draws we need to reach 40 points will come from? We only have 21 games left.

4 hours ago, king canary said:

I certainly don't think its fair to claim our improvement defensively is down to the opponents. Under Farke even teams like Watford tore up apart every single time they ran at us. You can see Smith and his team have the defence much better drilled and able to cope with counter attacks.

I didn't claim that, just asked the question. Aside from the Chelsea drubbing in comparison to the 3-0 loss to Spurs, the results have been basically the same, just those 4 extra goals conceded by Farke's team. There is a reasonable argument that Smith's fixtures have been marginally easier, certainly in terms of the top sides faced.

Ultimately I'm not jumping to conclusions, just stating my alarm at how we haven't actually built on those early signs of improvement under Smith and have reverted to the same patterns that saw Farke get sacked. If you can reassure me that this is just a blip due to injuries/Covid then that's great. I'm feeling pessimistic, that's all. 

[Davidlingfield 63]

The facts are pretty straightforward as I see it. We overpaid for the majority of new signings in the summer due to poor recruitment, so we won’t recoup anywhere near that amount when/if they are sold.

Add in the significant salaries being paid and therefore difficulty in moving players on + the large deficit in transfer fees still owed compared to those owing.

Therefore, if we are relegated this season, as I have already said in a previous post, we are in danger of being in significant financial difficulties over the coming 12-18 months.

[Mengo 822]

5 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Interesting that you see it that way. I like your optimism, but I'm struggling to see it. I think the squad is weaker now than even three seasons ago. We're missing the key creative players as well as any kind of defensive midfield. I'm probably just feeling miserable rather than looking with any degree of objectivity.

It was simply a reflection that they had a near identical record rather than anything else; that and how we ended on the up under Farke and appear to be getting worse under Smith. I accept it's not a massive sample, but we're running out of 'winnable' games - where do you think the 8 wins and 6 draws we need to reach 40 points will come from? We only have 21 games left.

I didn't claim that, just asked the question. Aside from the Chelsea drubbing in comparison to the 3-0 loss to Spurs, the results have been basically the same, just those 4 extra goals conceded by Farke's team. There is a reasonable argument that Smith's fixtures have been marginally easier, certainly in terms of the top sides faced.

Ultimately I'm not jumping to conclusions, just stating my alarm at how we haven't actually built on those early signs of improvement under Smith and have reverted to the same patterns that saw Farke get sacked. If you can reassure me that this is just a blip due to injuries/Covid then that's great. I'm feeling pessimistic, that's all. 

I'm sure it's just a blip. Because no matter what and has changed . The outlook feels better to me under SAS. So  for now I loathe listening  to talk of playing football in the lower league and how it could have been under the old boys brigade coaching.  That's now history. Move on and cheer up ffs.

 

[sonyc 5,508]

5 hours ago, Petriix said:

There's a remarkable similarly (or symmetry even) between Farke's last 6 games and Smith's first 6. One win, two draws, three goals scored, a couple of games where we could or should have got more.

The differences are there, but not enormous. It's impossible to know whether Farke had just about turned the corner and was getting more out of the team, but it's pointless to speculate. We can't ignore the rest of his Premier League record.

Smith has stopped us conceding so many, but that might be down to the opposition rather than his coaching. The initial signs were good in that we were giving it a go, playing with more intensity and creating chances.

But it has descended right back to the same situation as under Farke. The midfield issues have returned in identical form. The lack of attacking intent combined with hoofing it long has resurfaced.

It's all very well to keep Man Utd at bay for 80 minutes or to start brightly against Spurs, but those games won't define our season. It's Newcastle away against 10 men and Villa at home where we need to pick up the points.

If the managers are so similar then you need to look at the squad. Ok, we're suddenly missing a bunch of players, but where are the exciting young prospects champing at the bit ready to take the chance? Where are the leaders in the dressing room?

It's pretty clear that the squad has been mismanaged. I'm not so worried about this season because it's been a lost cause for a while now. It's next year that I'm worried about. We've gone backwards while spending record amounts on poor players.

It would be pretty miraculous if Smith could repeat Farke's Championship success with this squad (minus the loanees). Not impossible, but I'm struggling to imagine it right now.

I keep telling myself that the bad times in football are what mak the good times good. I just fear we're going to realise over the next couple of years just how good the recent good times have been. 

Sadly, it seems this cartoon may encapsulate our predicament quite well:

 

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

5 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Your pretty laughable change in tone since Farke left and Smith has came in is an exact example of what King describes. You gave Farke miles and miles of rope yet Smith has been walking the plank with you since day 1. That is clearly not fair, nor are you abiding by your own mantras which have set you apart as an extremely positive poster in the past. 

Also you are mad if you don't think we are much improved overall in these first 6 games. Try to imagine a Farke team missing Normann (the only player who actually played well for Farke this season), missing Rashica, missing 5, 6, 7 other first team players. Try to imagine a Farke team salvaging points from a losing position in the PL, it never happened in 48 games before but has happened twice since Smith came in. What a coinky-dink!

Some serious mental gymnastics being done by the Farke apologists...

Life is much more nuanced than you and @king canary make out. I want Smith to succeed, of course I do and he will need time to put his stamp on the squad. The point is how long that is going to take - and if this season is a write off anyway, as it looks, given the circumstances, then it is a mute point as to whether it was worth changing managers as we did.

What really matters is whether we can improve enough to give us a dog's chance this season, or if not, build towards next season. Imo, there is not a huge difference in what we have been watching. Same finishing problems, same leaking goals, same players - and Sorensen would have appeared with Farke too, as he improved his fitness - and injuries gave him his chance, as it has done under Smith.

As for Smith walking on a tightrope, well I think Farke had been walking on a thinner tightrope, given the poor results (up until he actually started picking up points) and the insistence of people tp drag up the last PL season's results (given all the reasons for that). In fact, it is looking remarkably similar to that season - poor start, too many injuries and covid all conspiring to make the least rich club in the league look even more inept.  Not Smith or Farke's fault.....

 

[(Hoola)Han Solo 324]

11 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Life is much more nuanced than you and @king canary make out. I want Smith to succeed, of course I do and he will need time to put his stamp on the squad. The point is how long that is going to take - and if this season is a write off anyway, as it looks, given the circumstances, then it is a mute point as to whether it was worth changing managers as we did.

What really matters is whether we can improve enough to give us a dog's chance this season, or if not, build towards next season. Imo, there is not a huge difference in what we have been watching. Same finishing problems, same leaking goals, same players - and Sorensen would have appeared with Farke too, as he improved his fitness - and injuries gave him his chance, as it has done under Smith.

As for Smith walking on a tightrope, well I think Farke had been walking on a thinner tightrope, given the poor results (up until he actually started picking up points) and the insistence of people tp drag up the last PL season's results (given all the reasons for that). In fact, it is looking remarkably similar to that season - poor start, too many injuries and covid all conspiring to make the least rich club in the league look even more inept.  Not Smith or Farke's fault.....

 

Mate, Farke is not coming back so it’s probably time to move on and snap out of this moody teenager phase. Your über positive and optimistic look at things should apply to Norwich City, and not who the current head coach is. You’ve defended every single NCFC manager of recent years way beyond the point they were effective, so maybe you should get fully behind Dean Smith in his early days. After all, as you might say nothing is certain in the future and there are still 21 games and 63 points to play for.

Edited December 16, 2021 by (Hoola)Han Solo

[lake district canary 4,531]

6 minutes ago, (Hoola)Han Solo said:

Mate, Farke is not coming back so it’s probably time to move on and snap out of this moody teenager phase. Your über positive and optimistic look at things should apply to Norwich City, and not who the current head coach is. You’ve defended every single NCFC manager of recent years way beyond the point they were effective, so maybe you should get fully behind Dean Smith in his early days. After all, as you might say nothing is certain in the future and there are still 21 games and 63 points to play for.

I'm not on the least bit moody about anything to do with the football apart from the fact that we're still not picking up enough points in the games that we need to.  That applies to Farke and Smith with the common denominator of lack of resources, injuries and the sheer quality in other teams. I don't see much difference in Smith or Farke in that respect, but I happen to think there were depths to Farke that go beyond many other managers and it is a shame he went.  That said, we are in the Smith era now and as you say, we should all be positive about him - and I am positive he will make us look a bit more competitive, but this thread was about Farke v Smith, which is what I've been talking about.  I liked him, I think he should have been backed 100% and any player who showed dissent or unhappiness about being left out should have been kept on the naughty step until they toed the line or could be sold/sent back to their parent club.

[Monty13 2,231]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

was simply a reflection that they had a near identical record rather than anything else; that and how we ended on the up under Farke and appear to be getting worse under Smith. I accept it's not a massive sample, but we're running out of 'winnable' games - where do you think the 8 wins and 6 draws we need to reach 40 points will come from? We only have 21 games left.

How can they have a near identical record but Smith is getting worse? Not true btw, certainly when it comes to Goals conceded.

We are running out of winnable games but unless you haven’t noticed the first team is in crisis with absences. Nothing to do with Smith.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,302]

8 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Our best performances have been under a clear change in style of play, high but organised pressing against Wolves and So'ton which we were never capable of under Farke, and a much more solid base to repel attacks. Totally different to Farke, and much more effective in the PL.

The whole of this post is excellent.

[Petriix 2,834]

44 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

How can they have a near identical record but Smith is getting worse? Not true btw, certainly when it comes to Goals conceded.

We are running out of winnable games but unless you haven’t noticed the first team is in crisis with absences. Nothing to do with Smith.

 

Because Farke was improving and ended with a win whereas Smith started with a win before drawing and then losing. 

The records across those 6 games are almost identical in both goals for and against with the exception of the 4 more goals we conceded against Chelsea than the 3 we conceded against Spurs. Hardly massively better in defence. Farke actually had one more clean sheet in that time (2 vs Smith's 1) and only conceded 4 vs Smith's 5 in the other 5 games.

In any case I'm not blaming Smith so much as looking at the overall squad and thinking it's simply not good enough. Smith hasn't improved things so far and has gone backwards after his positive start.

Let's review it again after his next 5 games when they've had 11 each. Hopefully Smith will do better in these than the 0 points Farke mustered. 

[sgncfc 1,225]

I agree that the squad probably isn't good enough to survive, but I still think it's the best we've had since the early to mid 1990s. There is barely a player who is not an international or has had European tournament experience. Those who think we will not recoup the payments made for the additions are premature in writing them off as a waste of money. Tzolis has barely played; Rashica was beginning to look the part when he got injured; Sargent is improving his contribution with every game (to the extent that the haters are now having to make up stats in order to denigrate him); Gibson and Giannoulis would comfortably sell for what we paid for them, even if they stayed in the Championship.

The standard in the PL is simply too high to be bridged by £5 to £10m players. We are playing against teams every week with £40m, £50m players. That doesn't make them 4 or 5 times better, but they are definitely better. So unless every one of our players delivers a 7 or 8 out of 10 performance the chances are we will lose. 

As we saw, both Man Utd and Villa produced 5 or 6 out of 10s for most of their players but still managed to beat us - because their players are much better than ours.

You can criticise the recruitment of course - maybe we didn't buy the right £5-£10m players; maybe we should have bought 2 or 3 £20m players instead (wages permitting) but it simply isn't true that we have gone backwards in quality. We just haven't improved by enough. Smith has quite definitely improved the squad by more than Farke did, but not by enough to survive.

I guess with a couple of additions in January he still might, but it looks an impossible job.

[Inch High aka Inchy.. 405]

Anybody that thinks Dean Smith is the answer to our prayers needs their bumps felt. Smith is a distinctly average manager with a very underwhelming career as a manager. 

He falls into the the same group as our failed summer signings, now managed by an equally 2nd rate manager. 

[Monty13 2,231]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

Because Farke was improving and ended with a win whereas Smith started with a win before drawing and then losing. 

The records across those 6 games are almost identical in both goals for and against with the exception of the 4 more goals we conceded against Chelsea than the 3 we conceded against Spurs. Hardly massively better in defence. Farke actually had one more clean sheet in that time (2 vs Smith's 1) and only conceded 4 vs Smith's 5 in the other 5 games.

In any case I'm not blaming Smith so much as looking at the overall squad and thinking it's simply not good enough. Smith hasn't improved things so far and has gone backwards after his positive start.

Let's review it again after his next 5 games when they've had 11 each. Hopefully Smith will do better in these than the 0 points Farke mustered. 

It’s 6 games, 6! and we have an injury crisis. Saying so  certainly any new manager is improving or getting worse over such a short period of time, even without the squad position, is ridiculous.

Farke had 50 PL games to improve and he never did. I also like to pretend the Chelsea game didn’t happen btw, but unfortunately it did so cutting everything down to 6 games and then also trying to ignore one that ruins your position is laughable.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Monty13

[Petriix 2,834]

The comparative records over 7 games are now almost identical: both 1 win, 2 draws and 4 losses; under Farke we scored 4 and conceded 15, under Smith its 3 for and 13 against.

However you want to dress it up, whatever excuses you want to make, we are no better under Smith. If anything, we're getting worse. The midfield problems are identical and we simply don't look like we can create chances. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The comparative records over 7 games are now almost identical: both 1 win, 2 draws and 4 losses; under Farke we scored 4 and conceded 15, under Smith its 3 for and 13 against.

However you want to dress it up, whatever excuses you want to make, we are no better under Smith. If anything, we're getting worse. The midfield problems are identical and we simply don't look like we can create chances. 

Replacing Farke for Smith looked a bizarre move to me at the time. Didn't look like upgrade then and it certainly doesn't now.

[Yellow Shirt 17]

4 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The comparative records over 7 games are now almost identical: both 1 win, 2 draws and 4 losses; under Farke we scored 4 and conceded 15, under Smith its 3 for and 13 against.

However you want to dress it up, whatever excuses you want to make, we are no better under Smith. If anything, we're getting worse. The midfield problems are identical and we simply don't look like we can create chances. 

We look worse under Smith. I cannot see how anyone can argue with that.

the worst part is that I don’t have any expectations that the players we are missing will come back into the team in place of our poorest performers.

[Petriix 2,834]

The irony is that Farke had that first win and could well have turned the corner. We'll obviously never know, but I find it hard to imagine that we would have done worse under Farke.