Ben Godfrey.. dear oh dear

[non-scoring strikers 113]

9 hours ago, KernowCanary said:

At one end of the pitch “That’s what the fans wanted!”, before it’s chalked off, then at the other end another frustrating time for Everton.

VAR really is the biggest mistake in football.

Sigh. It really isn't. 

The application of it in this country is what's suspect. 

See how its used in any other competition across the world. The Euros last summer being a case in point. 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

8 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

I see your point but that's not for me. This is deliberate.  

I've shared the footage with a few friends who support other clubs. Some have pointed out that he turns away and stamps. 

His reaction after is telling. No remorse. No apology. No reaction. No concern at all. 

Reminds me of the stamp on Nelson's face which caused serious injury and I'm not sure if there was disfigurement.

Godfrey is a player at top level in the premier League. He could have stopped himself doing that.

It was absolutely horrific and deliberate. 

 

 

That's where we see it differently. For me, and indeed the referees in the match, it wasn't close to being deliberate. And the key point is this: slowing down the footage makes it look more deliberate than it is. It also makes people think it could be stopped when it probably could not.

Serious injury does not always equal intent. Getting hit in the face, or near it, also doesn't necessarily signify intent. His reaction afterwards says nothing conclusive. You say there's no apology, but he's got absolutely nothing to apologise for. Under those circumstances, I certainly wouldn't apologise either.

So, you have a slow-mo making it look malicious when it doesn't appear to be, a player who's on the way down getting hit, which also makes it look worse than it really is, getting hit near the face, which also makes it look worse than it really is. Classic example - goalies get that on a regular basis coming out for balls. De Gea getting trod on by Fred by accident for Arsenal's first goal being a case in point.

 

[Ken Hairy 3,760]

10 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If he deliberately planted his boot on his head while looking in a completely different direction then that's almost supernatural skill in action. 

May I ask, have you played/play at any half decent level? I don't mean that to be patronising so apologies if it comes across as such, but anyone who's played the game will tell you Godfrey 100% knew what he was doing, and it's a straight red everyday. The fact VAR doesn't give it a red shows our refs don't have a working knowledge of the game. 

Every pundit, and ex player I've heard talking about the incident both on TV and radio have said the same thing. 

[Ken Hairy 3,760]

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'm very confident I have it right. 

Agree with what others have said, you're a very decent poster who posts a lot of sensible stuff, but you're 100% wrong on this one. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

4 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

May I ask, have you played/play at any half decent level? I don't mean that to be patronising so apologies if it comes across as such, but anyone who's played the game will tell you Godfrey 100% knew what he was doing, and it's a straight red everyday. The fact VAR doesn't give it a red shows our refs don't have a working knowledge of the game. 

Every pundit, and ex player I've heard talking about the incident both on TV and radio have said the same thing. 

Only at school, and I was pretty rubbish. Also played a game of five-a-side for a work thing once where my main value was the number of injuries to the other team's players shins. 🙂

Possibly I'm missing something here, but I do remember the Tyrone Mings stamp and he looked and adjusted his stride. Here, he's looking in a different direction and just looks to be stumbling. But, as you say, maybe there's more artistry in this than I recognise. 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

22 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

May I ask, have you played/play at any half decent level? I don't mean that to be patronising so apologies if it comes across as such, but anyone who's played the game will tell you Godfrey 100% knew what he was doing, and it's a straight red everyday. The fact VAR doesn't give it a red shows our refs don't have a working knowledge of the game. 

Every pundit, and ex player I've heard talking about the incident both on TV and radio have said the same thing. 

I still play vets football, have played and won trophies at local level in both England and Germany (as a goalkeeper, so I'm kinda used to getting inadvertently trod on occasionally), and on top of that was a referee who got to referee county finals in junior football back in the early 2000s before retiring due to a litany of ankle injuries (although I still referee a friend's girls team on occasion if there aren't enough referees around). And very few of the ex-players and pundits have full knowledge of the Laws of the Game so their seemingly unanimous stance isn't as watertight as you'd think.

Chicken made some excellent points about Godfrey's movement there, and I suspect all those pundits have also simply looked at the slow-mo, which naturally looks more incriminating - and the crux of the matter when it comes to judgement is that slow-mo naturally does.

Watch it on here from somewhat above (0:10-0:13) in real time, and it definitely looks like a total accident. 
 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[canarydan23 4,060]

He's absolutely done that deliberately. I suspect the refs have a suspicion that he's done it deliberately. But to give a red card I'd imagine they'd want to feel more certain of it and have given him the benefit of the doubt.

It has all the signs of the stupid little "no look" passes that the kids all love doing these days. You get your eye on your foot's target and then look the other way when you make contact. As others has said, the lack of any reaction is also telling. For 99% of people, it's human nature to react with a sign of apology if you inadvertently hit somebody in a manner that could cause harm. You open the door into someone unseen stood behind it and instinctively your hand goes up and you can't say "sorry" enough times.

Sad to see. But he's done a good enough job to fool Mike Dean. But then he's probably one of the most easily-fooled referees in Premier League history. So be better than Mike Dean.

[BigManInTheBarclay 75]

Hoping he gets fined or a ban for that....but as we saw with the Mings one not much is done in most cases.

[Google Bot 3,259]

It's clearly not deliberate.

[hogesar 9,618]

Godfrey knew exactly what he was doing.

[Branston 53]

The guy is a coward . As bad as I can recall . A few more inches could have taken his eye out .

Always massively overated . 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

I hope anyone sticking up for Godfrey knows they are sticking up for Mings too versus Oliveira. 

The fact this is the company Godfrey sits in regarding the incident says it all. 

Would happen every game if all players were this 'clumsy', no doubt.

[AJ 1,218]

on first viewing I thought it was accidental and on second viewing I still believe the same

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

33 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

I hope anyone sticking up for Godfrey knows they are sticking up for Mings too versus Oliveira. 

The fact this is the company Godfrey sits in regarding the incident says it all. 

Would happen every game if all players were this 'clumsy', no doubt.

Nope, they're chalk and cheese. Mings has pulled Oliviera back to start with, then on the way down he transfers all his weight. Godfrey was slightly off-balance to start with and Tomiyasu's fallen across after losing balance in the previous challenge. On top of that, Godfrey hasn't come close to transferring all his weight. The outcome is fairly similar, but the rest is nowhere near comparable.

This does happen quite a bit. Hell, Fred nobbled his own goalie for Man Utd against Arsenal. They rarely result in facial cuts though. That, plus the slow-mo, makes people think there's more in it than there is.

[canarydan23 4,060]

The fact that he hasn't avoided contact with his face when he patently could have done is pretty telling.

I've got three kids, I show more nimble reactions when avoiding lego on a near daily basis than Godfrey displayed there. And the closest I got to the Premier League was the Evening News Sunday League Division 1B.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

Nope, they're chalk and cheese. Mings has pulled Oliviera back to start with, then on the way down he transfers all his weight. Godfrey was slightly off-balance to start with and Tomiyasu's fallen across after losing balance in the previous challenge. On top of that, Godfrey hasn't come close to transferring all his weight. The outcome is fairly similar, but the rest is nowhere near comparable.

This does happen quite a bit. Hell, Fred nobbled his own goalie for Man Utd against Arsenal. They rarely result in facial cuts though. That, plus the slow-mo, makes people think there's more in it than there is.

Fair enough TGS - I disagree. They don't happen a lot when a player is on lying on the floor do they? Accidentally standing on someone's heel is totally different so the Fred example is pointless.

To me Tomiyasu clearly falls infront of Godfrey and would absolutely be in his peripheral vision prior to Godfrey putting his foot down, those moments before it happening are plenty enough time for Godfrey to pull his foot away and either fall on top on or over Tomiyasu. For whatever reason he doesn't adjust any of his momentum even having seen the Arsenal player fall in front of him...

Be interesting to see if you'd be arguing the same if it were Godfrey on Oliveira and Mings last night on Tomiyasu.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

The fact that he hasn't avoided contact with his face when he patently could have done is pretty telling.

I've got three kids, I show more nimble reactions when avoiding lego on a near daily basis than Godfrey displayed there. And the closest I got to the Premier League was the Evening News Sunday League Division 1B.

Yeah, if Tomiyasu was a giant piece of lego or an upside down plug there's no way he'd be planting his foot down like that.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Fair enough TGS - I disagree. They don't happen a lot when a player is on lying on the floor do they? Accidentally standing on someone's heel is totally different so the Fred example is pointless.

To me Tomiyasu clearly falls infront of Godfrey and would absolutely be in his peripheral vision prior to Godfrey putting his foot down, those moments before it happening are plenty enough time for Godfrey to pull his foot away and either fall on top on or over Tomiyasu. For whatever reason he doesn't adjust any of his momentum even having seen the Arsenal player fall in front of him...

Be interesting to see if you'd be arguing the same if it were Godfrey on Oliveira and Mings last night on Tomiyasu.

They don't happen as much when a player is lying on the floor as by definition, he's in that position and can be avoided. Tomiyasu was knocked off balance by a nearby player before falling towards Godfrey himself. That makes a huge difference (also shows why the comparison with Mings is well off).

He may be in Godfrey's peripheral vision on the way down, but Godfrey's still getting that ball away so the notion of him concentrating on Tomiyasu is askew. Yes, the Fred example is rather different in terms of which body part got hit, but that was used to show how complete accidents can also be painful and have unexpected results.

This is highlighting perfectly what I mean when I say slow-motion replays give the impression there is far more time than there is, therefore people think there's more malice than is intended. You'll find I was arguing very similar with the Giannoulis case on Pearson, and you'll find I've said this in other discussions on fouls where a card has been given and considered controversial.

[Duncan Edwards 2,222]

I initially thought it was accidental but that's my default reaction because an ex-Norwich graduate would never be "that type of player", however in slow motion it's pretty grim viewing.

I also think if you apply a bit of context from what had already happened in the game, Godfrey did seem wound up from the outset. He put in a crunching tackle on an Arsenal player early on that was deemed a great tackle but had it been mistimed by even the tiniest of margins would have seen him red carded and I think it was just prior to the foot/face incident there was a bit of grappling with Tomiyasu and I remember thinking BG was about to launch an elbow. He stood on his face instead. 

Ultimately, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but he was playing aggressively from the outset. Only he will know the truth. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Yeah, if Tomiyasu was a giant piece of lego or an upside down plug there's no way he'd be planting his foot down like that.

Exactly. 

[Ken Hairy 3,760]

5 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

I still play vets football, have played and won trophies at local level in both England and Germany (as a goalkeeper, so I'm kinda used to getting inadvertently trod on occasionally), and on top of that was a referee who got to referee county finals in junior football back in the early 2000s before retiring due to a litany of ankle injuries (although I still referee a friend's girls team on occasion if there aren't enough referees around). And very few of the ex-players and pundits have full knowledge of the Laws of the Game so their seemingly unanimous stance isn't as watertight as you'd think.

Chicken made some excellent points about Godfrey's movement there, and I suspect all those pundits have also simply looked at the slow-mo, which naturally looks more incriminating - and the crux of the matter when it comes to judgement is that slow-mo naturally does.

Watch it on here from somewhat above (0:10-0:13) in real time, and it definitely looks like a total accident. 
 

 

Watched it again in real time, I reiterate 100% deliberate. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. 

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

Watched it again in real time, I reiterate 100% deliberate. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. 

Well, that's fair enough. I definitely don't see it as deliberate. No worries.

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

Watched it again in real time, I reiterate 100% deliberate. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Well, that's fair enough. I definitely don't see it as deliberate. No worries.

This really isn’t the pinkun way is it ? You two need to up your game and turn this into a full blown argument ! How about one of you starts with “ your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries “ ? 😉

[Indy 3,284]

Having seen it a few times, he’s planted the foot towards the player, but when he makes contact with the head he’s realised how serious it could be and totally regretted the contact. Yes dangerous, but not deliberate ( I hope not) only Godfrey will know.

Even though his heads turned his foot comes down in a very unnatural way towards the player.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Indy

[vos 155]

Not 100% sure it was deliberate as Godfrey is not normally that sort of player BUT from the outset he was getting severely stuck in to the opposition. Perhaps under instruction from his new boss.

Re Offsides - we must get rid of VAR. Its a game played by humans and should be refereed by a similar species.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

1 hour ago, FenwayFrank said:

 

This really isn’t the pinkun way is it ? You two need to up your game and turn this into a full blown argument ! How about one of you starts with “ your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries “ ? 😉

I have a wery gweat fwiend in Wome called Biggus Dikkus. 😉

Edited December 7, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

8 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I have a wery gweat fwiend in Wome called Biggus Dikkus. 😉

Thwow him to the fwoor! 

[Midlands Yellow 3,943]

25 minutes ago, FenwayFrank said:

Thwow him to the fwoor! 

Stwike him centurion vewy woughly.

[TheGunnShow 5,933]

2 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Stwike him centurion vewy woughly.

I shall NOT have my fwiend widiculed by the common soldiewy! 

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

I might as well leave this here, never tire of watching it do you ?