Not the manager that needs changing...

[Gamera 0]

It''s the fans, what does it take for you guys to just shut

up, It''s frankly boring coming on here and every time we win it''s still moan

moan moan. Just give it a rest. Were not a "club in crisis". We''ve

had a poor season. You''re not managers, you have no idea. We could be having a

far worse season. Some instances have been promising this season. We’ve brought

in some players with much more talent. (I''m referring to the January

window...minus Etuhu..) Beaten some decent teams, played some decent football.

Worthy is not stupid. You think he can''t see Hughes isn''t Viera? He''s playing

him for a reason. I feel that everyone has latched onto this "hate

Worthy" thing, it''s getting out of hand. Banners, methods of getting

Worthy out prepared every match. Jesus! What are you doing!

 

I''m not blind; I can see the poor results. But would Worthy

being Outed really change our season? Would anyone come here and do better with

the team we have? Teams are having far worse seasons and there’s no call for

the managers head. Look at Arsenal, always come in the top two with wenger, not

a good season but they accept it. No one expected us to do badly. Really? You’re

kidding yourself if you''ve ignored all the teams that go down and take a few

seasons to shape back up. We need stability, not change. Worthys got a formula that’s

won two without conceding, but all you "managers" think this ought to

be changed right away. Yeah...Good call.

    I''ve said before;

spend the time backing the manager and players instead of plotting his demise.

It''s called supporting your team. Booing, chanting and banners help no one. Who

is in the best position to say whether the manager is doing his job properly?

The players maybe? You think if he was that bad the players would say

something? Maybe not, but they all seem to back him. No public arguments, no

angry looks etc. It''s a joke. Norwich

just recorded another win. Now be bloody happy about it! We won, even if the

performance wasn''t fantastic (It wasn''t half bloody bad though). How many times

did we play well and lose last season? Now what’s more important? I think,

correct me if I''m wrong, that Worthy''s job is to get this team to win. Ah,

yeah...the if they had a better striker today they would have won, if we played

Chelsea we

would have lost. We should have scored far more... oh yeah I forgot we get more

points for scoring more, what were we thinking. The ridiculous comments that

get posted, after our manager, has just made our team won. You think managers

of companies get results and get criticised for their methods? Now if we lose,

fair enough. Slate the guy to your hearts content. But when he''s won, leave it

out! Worthy could get us to the Champions league, Hughes England captain

and you''d still "wave your hankies".

[LinkNR9 0]

"It''s frankly boring coming on here".

Well don''t bother then, you won''t be missed!

[ZLF 274]

The difference with wenger and arsenal is that they have a very young side and went into the season with a view of it being a transitional one for them.

We however went into the season with as good as squad as anyones elses (worthy), the core of a premiership team and now, due to incompetence we find our expectations have been downgraded and we  too are in a transitional season and that in a no excuse season that has seen more excuses and blame placed everywhere except where it counts.  

From the bookies point of view the equivalent would be chelsea being in 8th or 9th this season with no chance of the UEFA cup thats how unacceptable this season has been.

You want to keep Worthy; thats fine and that is your opinion; I disagree and feel our club will not take the huge steps forward its fans deserve until we get a new manager;  that is my opinion, I will continue to protest legally and peacefully about that.  It is your problem, your issues to resolve if you are not happy with my opinion, not mine.    

As discussed elsewhere there is every reason to be optimistic next season, just as there was at the start of this, if we can finally get the best out of our squad.  

[Tom Blazak<P><IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Tom Blazak<P><P>Ronaldinho - The Huckerby Of The Nou Camp<P> 0]

i disagree - the difference between wenger and worthless is wenger has been there 10 ish years and had 9ish good years and successful years. worthless has been here 5yrs and had one year where he got lucky. but rest of post is spot on. we were the bookies faves. we are now in 11th with no hope of the play offs.

[In Dubious Battle 0]

I understand that people had high expectations for this season and that they have not been met. But i think we all need to be a bit realistic about the situation, how many teams get relegated from the premiership and bounce straight back? not very many! The job Nigel Worthington has to do is incredibly difficult and if certain fans channeled their energy towards supporting the team instead of starting witch hunts his job would be much easier. Nigel Worthington is going nowhere this season like it or not he''s here till at least the summer so what does anybody have to loose in getting behind the team/manager for the rest of the season, it may be a long shot but the play-off''s are still reachable!There is the whole summer to shout for a new manager, when it won''t affect our performances.

[lucky green trainers 0]

there''s plenty of evidence to suggest it is the manager that needs changing.  imo your loyalty is misguided - hopin worthy can pull it around and rekindle past glories rather than what you can see from the level of performaces and results.imo worthy is more comfortable managing the grafters than quality players - we saw how he signed quality players last year, but didn''t play them until we got hammered at arsenal - then surprise, surprise we beat man.uHow can worthy get the best out of andy hughes and not jarrett (man of the match for plymouth - not here) for instance? 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

In fact in the last 6 years of those whom didnt go straight back up only 3 actually got up later

West Ham and Sunderland (whom both made the play-offs in their first season) and Blackburn whom had Jack Walkers millions.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Its not the fact that we will not be going straight back up that bugs me, its the standard of our performances ever since we got promoted.

Stability you say: well its the manager who chooses the squad. If he wants stability then he should have kept the squad together. You can''t go out and regularly buy or loan players, spend record amounts of money and then complain that we need stability and use that as an excuse for woeful underperformance. Worthy has been allowed to spend more money than anybody else in our history (even taking wage and fee inflation into account) and we expect things to get better, not worse because he then moans about "stability".

"Stability" is also "stagnation" if left to rot and fester. We need  reinvigoration, innovation and a re-energising, a kick up the backside, a "relaunch" if you like.

Would anybody else have done better? Yes, I firmly believe so. This club is not in crisis, we are a very attractive proposition for all but the top level of world managers. We cannot expect to see Martin O''Neill here again or a Guus Hiddink, but for a Martin Allen, a Phil Parkinson, a Peter Taylor or a Mike Newell we would be a hugely tempting proposition. Delia would have the pick of a good bunch if the position became vacant, pair new blood with our own Dave Williams and you have a powerful team.

Finally I would not swap our squad for anybody''s in this division. When looked at as a whole I think we are a top two squad. OK, there are some areas like central and right midfield where there are gaps, but who would you trade Earnshaw, Huckerby, Green, Safri, McKenzie, Drury, Doherty, Johanson, McVeigh for as a group?

So, the indictment is damning to me. We are achieving way below what we could be doing and its happening time after time after time and then again. Two wins against very poor lowly ranked opposition does not change this. I am not a fickle fan who thinks all is well because of those two wins of the five we had in December.

I still travel 350 miles for a home game and support my team, but I want a change in management in the interests of the long term because I think its the right thing to do and the evidence is strong.

[chicken 0]

Paul,Please compare:http://new.pinkun.com/content/NCFC/Stats/2004-2005/appearances_goals.aspxwithhttp://new.pinkun.com/content/NCFC/Stats/2005-2006/appearances_goals.aspxTo say that the core of the team has not changed is totally incorrect! I think in all fairness the one thing that the club as a whole - including the supporters, has been guilt of this season is underestimating the good old Championship.And I have said this to you all befor with a serious lack of counter argument. Just going through the squad list from last year and you will actually realise that the has been a lot of change within the squad.Out of the players we had last year we still had the following at the beggining of the season - Ashton, Gallacher, Brennan, Green, Charlton, Henderson, Doherty, Huckerby, Drury, Jarvis, Fleming, McKenzie, McVeigh, Safri, Shackell and Ward.Out of those which player played the majority of last season? I would say you are left with Fleming, Drury, Docherty, Huckerby, Safri (when not injured), Ashton and Green. Thats seven players which mainly makes up the defence! And out of those players onl four or five have been here longer than just the last season!Just after Christmas after beating Sheff Utd and getting within spitting distance of the play-offs Ashton goes. How do you think that affects moral in the camp?I believe that too much "blind faith" was put into those seven players to keep performing and winning matches. Football these days is a squad game. You have different options in your squad as well as simply depth.So I ask you all - was it really as straight forward that would walk this league? Or were we being too confident, arrogant even on a West Ham-esque scale?I now think the latter. On a more interesting note - how small was our squad last season?!!!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="chicken"]
Paul,

Please compare:

http://new.pinkun.com/content/NCFC/Stats/2004-2005/appearances_goals.aspx

with

http://new.pinkun.com/content/NCFC/Stats/2005-2006/appearances_goals.aspx

To say that the core of the team has not changed is totally incorrect! I think in all fairness the one thing that the club as a whole - including the supporters, has been guilt of this season is underestimating the good old Championship.

And I have said this to you all befor with a serious lack of counter argument. Just going through the squad list from last year and you will actually realise that the has been a lot of change within the squad.

Out of the players we had last year we still had the following at the beggining of the season - Ashton, Gallacher, Brennan, Green, Charlton, Henderson, Doherty, Huckerby, Drury, Jarvis, Fleming, McKenzie, McVeigh, Safri, Shackell and Ward.

Out of those which player played the majority of last season? I would say you are left with Fleming, Drury, Docherty, Huckerby, Safri (when not injured), Ashton and Green. Thats seven players which mainly makes up the defence! And out of those players onl four or five have been here longer than just the last season!

Just after Christmas after beating Sheff Utd and getting within spitting distance of the play-offs Ashton goes. How do you think that affects moral in the camp?

I believe that too much "blind faith" was put into those seven players to keep performing and winning matches. Football these days is a squad game. You have different options in your squad as well as simply depth.

So I ask you all - was it really as straight forward that would walk this league? Or were we being too confident, arrogant even on a West Ham-esque scale?

I now think the latter. On a more interesting note - how small was our squad last season?!!!


[/quote]

just remember we have had Premiership money to invest in the team..  At the start of the season the only truely noticable absentees were Svensson, Francis (Still Unreplaced) and Edworthy (Still unreplaced).  The right midfield slot was STILL not sorted out.

The worst thing has been the manner of football, we havent just been poor, we have been atrocious..  look at ipswichs side - how many of them would you take into our team??  NONE unyet they are above us in the table.

[Rossi 0]

"Would anyone come here and do better with the team we have?" Er, yes. End of Story.

[king johnbond 0]

just one comment when was it this season that we played decent football !!!!!!!

[Mark Smith 0]

[quote user="king johnbond"]just one comment when was it this season that we played decent football !!!!!!![/quote]

Or "beaten some decent teams" (Sheff Utd. withstanding) for that matter..

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="Tom Blazak"]i disagree - the difference between wenger and

worthless is wenger has been there 10 ish years and had 9ish good years

and successful years. worthless has been here 5yrs and had one year

where he got lucky. but rest of post is spot on. we were the bookies

faves. we are now in 11th with no hope of the play offs.[/quote]

don''t talk utter cr*p, So champions and playoffs is the one lucky year

is it? Every year in the championship has been pretty good except this

year and the season we just missed out on playoffs. I suspect we''ll

just miss out on playoffs again. Pretty good record.

[Gamera 0]

My main "dig" here. is the fact that a lot of people on here complain about Worthy even when he has won. Yes your entitled to your opinion, hence why I said when he loses, say what you like. But when he wins, what he is paid to do, why do you still jump on his back?

[Dicky 0]

Well written post Gamera.  My sentiments exactly and despite what a few people on here would have you believe, the view of many supporters.  Keep up the good work.

[Mark Smith 0]

[quote user="Gamera"]My main "dig" here. is the fact that a lot of people on here complain about Worthy even when he has won. Yes your entitled to your opinion, hence why I said when he loses, say what you like. But when he wins, what he is paid to do, why do you still jump on his back?
[/quote]

Because its not that simple. Yes, looking at the results against Brighton and Derby, 3-0 and 2-0 looks good on paper. But there are a lot of other issues here, which many posters have expressed over the past couple of days far better than I could. If you want to be insular and just look at the results of these two games, on their own, then fine. But if you look deeper it isn''t that straightforward.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Single results against poor teams make no difference to my opinion of him, why should it change cos we have beaton 2 relegation threatened teams?? We have lost to a fair few of them this season....

[Gamera 0]

Thats not what im saying. Results count. I said about last year when performances were good but reults werent. It is results that matter. They look good on paper because they are. I didn''t say im not annoyed when we lose. But when we win? Im happy, and so should you be. Not bloody moaning!

[arrdee 2]

dear gamera , try and keep up with the others,

[westoncanary. 0]

I said that to keep his job he had to (in my opinion), beat both Derby & Brighton. Well, he has done that & the players seem to be responding, we need to salvage something from this season and the next step in the right direction would be a point at Palace, traditionally a bogey ground for us.    

[Alex Harvey-Jones 0]

[quote user="Gamera"]My main "dig" here. is the fact that a lot of people on here complain about Worthy even when he has won. Yes your entitled to your opinion, hence why I said when he loses, say what you like. But when he wins, what he is paid to do, why do you still jump on his back?
[/quote] Because a win against relegation haunted team does not chance any of the underlying problems at the club. Why does a win if you''ve played badly and the rest of the season has been poor suddenly mean we should be lauding Worthy??? Winning doesn''t change any of the rubbish signings he''s made, the fact we are probably going to miss out on the playoffs and that some of his decisions and tactics at times have been shocking! Ok winning two games back to back looks a good improvement and we should be happy about that but there is a long way to go before I start thinking about changing my views of Worthy. If he gets us to the play offs that would be a different matter. The ball is in his court but in the mean time nothing has changed!!!

How fickle would the fans be if they all moaned every time we lost and were happy with Worthy every time we won?? We would change opinion about 30 times in a season!! Sometimes losing isn''t cause for complaint either!! You can play well and lose to a better team. Are you saying that if that happens, calling for Worthy to be sacked is entirely justified??

[LinkNR9 0]

Dicky - I think you''ve accidentally juxtadisposed the words ''few'' and ''many'' in your post.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Paul Rankin"]Single results against poor teams make no difference to my opinion of him, why should it change cos we have beaton 2 relegation threatened teams?? We have lost to a fair few of them this season....[/quote]Ah Paul, what shall we do with you?If you can''t class beating two of the leagues "lesser" teams (and I would argue that Derby are underperforming they have quality in that side), then why should we consider loosing to the top of the table teams as a bad thing?You can''t double standard things like that. Nor can someone say tell me a good result agains good opposition not including Shef Utd. That wasn''t just a win it was a thrashing! It goes to show you that when everything is clicking properly this team can do well. I think the transfer window and the loss of Safri unsettled the team.Anyway my main gripe, and I believe rightly so, that for too long and for too often people have come on here and said look at this that or the other but DON''T look at this or use that as an argument against your views. It is utterly discusting and quite frankly ends you capasity in any debate - which is what this is.Paul - I think to be fair you at least attempt to reason with your judgements, something I hold you in some respect for. But the others somewhat bring the anti-Worthington argument down. And I don''t think it is bad in these situations to sit down like decent people and talk about it without getting too stupid.The problem as I have said before is to do with consistancy across the board. And as I have mentioned before I believe that this comes down to a combination of things. I don''t think anyone can deny that what Worthington has given this club since he took over was stability and consistency. So this season it has been a shock for all to see the way it has panned out.But I don''t think that it has been a bad season yet. I think to some extent as long as lessons are learnt nothing is ever bad.As for the premiership money - do people really believe that there was enough to pay off the debts and buy a premiership squad? It was made quite public what the situation was when we got promoted and I even remember having discussions on here that premiership survival at any cost whether it be by ten or by one point would be complete success.Now we missed out - in a very tight and contested season on the last day in which it was very clear where some players wanted to be and it was anywhere but in a yellow and green shirt.We now also have at last a team and a squad that Worthington has built by himself almost to the man, Green, Fleming and McVeigh being the only players to have seen first team action before his arrival.I think that through the storm the right noises are starting to creep back onto this board. Its been a dark, frustrating and hard season but then not all of them can be great - even with a good manager. And the real question is how long to you keep the faith?Some people just don''t have faith - they don''t like to trust anyone. But they are the people that have seen this club have more managers than you can shake a stick at. But their place is needed. People are always needed to question - without questions no thought is created and no targets set.All I ask is that doubts are argued fairly and with at the very least a hint or realism, this situation can not possibly be entirely Worthingtons fault - and it is simply naieve to think so.

[Ark 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

From the bookies point of view the equivalent would be chelsea being in 8th or 9th this season with no chance of the UEFA cup thats how unacceptable this season has been.

[/quote]I''ve slowly been tending towards the "worthy has had his chance" camp. But I''m sorry, these kind of irrational statements completely undermine your arguements that your expectations as fans are realistic. We are in no way whatsoever the "Chelsea" of the Championship - for one thing the top 4/5 in the Prem play in a league of their own. Our current position is definitely disappointing, but neither surprising nor wholly unexpected. Sad (and ashame), but true.

[allways travelling 0]

[quote user="Gamera"]My main "dig" here. is the fact that a lot of people on here complain about Worthy even when he has won. Yes your entitled to your opinion, hence why I said when he loses, say what you like. But when he wins, what he is paid to do, why do you still jump on his back?
[/quote]Can you please explain to me why worthy signed etuhu he was here for one month looked lazy clumbsy disinterested total lack of drive and passion.whilst on loan I was always under the impression it was for us and the player to have a look at each other before signing.WHAT THE HELL DID WORTHY OR HIS COACHING STAFF SEE IN HIM.this worries me.

[Darlo dumplin’ 0]

here here!

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="Paul Rankin"]Single results against poor teams make no difference to my opinion of him, why should it change cos we have beaton 2 relegation threatened teams?? We have lost to a fair few of them this season....[/quote]

Ah Paul, what shall we do with you?

If you can''t class beating two of the leagues "lesser" teams (and I would argue that Derby are underperforming they have quality in that side), then why should we consider loosing to the top of the table teams as a bad thing?

You can''t double standard things like that. Nor can someone say tell me a good result agains good opposition not including Shef Utd. That wasn''t just a win it was a thrashing! It goes to show you that when everything is clicking properly this team can do well. I think the transfer window and the loss of Safri unsettled the team.

Anyway my main gripe, and I believe rightly so, that for too long and for too often people have come on here and said look at this that or the other but DON''T look at this or use that as an argument against your views. It is utterly discusting and quite frankly ends you capasity in any debate - which is what this is.

Paul - I think to be fair you at least attempt to reason with your judgements, something I hold you in some respect for. But the others somewhat bring the anti-Worthington argument down. And I don''t think it is bad in these situations to sit down like decent people and talk about it without getting too stupid.

The problem as I have said before is to do with consistancy across the board. And as I have mentioned before I believe that this comes down to a combination of things. I don''t think anyone can deny that what Worthington has given this club since he took over was stability and consistency. So this season it has been a shock for all to see the way it has panned out.

But I don''t think that it has been a bad season yet. I think to some extent as long as lessons are learnt nothing is ever bad.

As for the premiership money - do people really believe that there was enough to pay off the debts and buy a premiership squad? It was made quite public what the situation was when we got promoted and I even remember having discussions on here that premiership survival at any cost whether it be by ten or by one point would be complete success.

Now we missed out - in a very tight and contested season on the last day in which it was very clear where some players wanted to be and it was anywhere but in a yellow and green shirt.

We now also have at last a team and a squad that Worthington has built by himself almost to the man, Green, Fleming and McVeigh being the only players to have seen first team action before his arrival.

I think that through the storm the right noises are starting to creep back onto this board. Its been a dark, frustrating and hard season but then not all of them can be great - even with a good manager. And the real question is how long to you keep the faith?

Some people just don''t have faith - they don''t like to trust anyone. But they are the people that have seen this club have more managers than you can shake a stick at. But their place is needed. People are always needed to question - without questions no thought is created and no targets set.

All I ask is that doubts are argued fairly and with at the very least a hint or realism, this situation can not possibly be entirely Worthingtons fault - and it is simply naieve to think so.


[/quote]

we have won 20 games in about 70.....     we have lost more than we have won this season....  we have played poor tactically for the most part this season, the wrong type of football, all ordered from the MANAGER....  we have wasted 1 million pounds on 2 crap players at a minimum whom anyone could have told youo were POOR PLAYERS(a lot for NCFC considering some managers never got this amount to spend), this new squad is improving but come what may in june and we might be missing the 2 new influential players and we will still have ANDY HUGHES sitting in central midfield......

I say 2 wins against rubbish teams wont change my opinion because these are games we HAVE to be winning no excuses - its not as if we played these teams off the park, we have spent millions...  anything less is a disaster as has happened time and time again this season (Sheff wed, millwall, QPR, Luton etc)  we have shown we are 2nd rate by acheiving only 1 win against a good side...  out of what?? 8 games!! yep 6 defeats, 1 draw 1 loss...  I imagine plymouth probably have as good a record as that....

In the end if we lose to palace what has changed from 2 months ago??  NOTHING  we are still playing poorly (but passing at least, 32 games too late, thanks WORTHY, FOLEY and LIVERMOOR) we are still nowhere near the play offs...  god we were closer in the other poor season we had between the play-offs and promotion and that was without millions spent.....

AND YET AGAIN IT WAS THE EASIEST PREMIERSHIP SEASON TO SURVIVE IN HISTORY!!!!  AND WE FAILED.  we only started winning when he put safri, shackell and helveg in the team and in their CORRECT positions along with worthys prematch comment -" i didnt want anyone to feel they didnt get a chance." well what happened?? we beat united and almost survived..  shame it took him 29 games to realise....

He sees these players on the training ground and it takes a we are already relegated so you guys can have a game comment!!!! otherwise we would have finished with an abysmal points tally continuing to FAIL with the doc, Edy and Holt..........

He is Our Very Own GARY MEGSON!!  and we can do FAR FAR Better...