The wrong move.

[Mengo 822]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

Of course it is NCFC that matters - and I normally do embrace things positively - and will again once the dust has settled, but just now, it feels as if someone has shot themselves in both feet. New beginning?  No time for that - the new manager has to hit the ground running or we will be relegated before he has a chance to do anything - and if we are relegated, then we just sacked a person who has proved he has what it takes to get us back.......if he keeps us up? Well that will be fantastic and would vindicate Webber's decision.

Exact Science it's not. There is risk. But that decision has been made and hopefully its a good one. Life is like an ashtray. Full of little doubts. 

[shefcanary 2,404]

11 hours ago, thebigfeller said:

But the reality is we cannot afford to think conservative. Being ultra-conservative in how we behaved with Worthington, in particular, set us on a path towards administration.

Exactly this on another point - let's get the City Stand replaced now!  To soldier on with the current dilapidated one is very conservative.  If we are to be a top 17 club, we have to act like one, even under the self funding model; and by not being conservative I don't mean splashing cash without regard, but taking on manageable debt when the opportunity arises.  If we hold off much longer interest on term loans will be double digit and become unaffordable, but something around 5-6% should pay for itself over the term even under a self funding model.

[Indy 3,298]

I commend Lakey for his views, but like others time to see the next chapter of the same book! Looking at the list of managers and our yo-yo status it’s our level with the current ownership and set up. Possibly with relegation might come a few seasons in the championship as there’s lots of clubs now in the championship who will be more attractive to potential players.

We got rid of a coach who knows our club inside out and a two time promoted coach too. Maybe the time to sack Farke would have been in two years when or if we got promoted as we know he can do the championship job well. But as others say Lakey time to move on in this area, but don’t hold your breath thinking we’ll become an established premiership club, it’s just not going to happen under the current set up, regardless of Webbers long term plans or manager.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Indy

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

11 minutes ago, Mengo said:

We can but hope. We were going nowhere recently. It's not an exact science football. But personally I feel that the players that are here are good enough to keep norwich . But this just my opinion. 

We were actually progressing: morale in the dressing room was good by the accounts of the players after his dismissal and we'd taken 5 points from the last five games before dismissal. All for moving on, but let's not have inaccurate statements about the past. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

21 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

This is an extremely selective statistic. As I've said before, five points from games against Burnley, Brighton, Leeds, Chelsea and Brentford is relegation form. And, as others have said, the performances in that time were not showing much sign of improvement. Parking the bus against Burnley and Brighton got us a couple of much-needed points, and was a reasonable thing to do at the time. But we needed to see that we could build on that, and the chaotic selection and performance against Leeds suggested that DF was miles away from that. I was delighted that we beat Brentford, but we were a pretty fortunate point-blank Krul save from throwing away a two-goal lead against a fellow relegation candidate. There actually wasn't that much on show in that game to suggest that Webber had made the wrong decision.

I have a lot of sympathy for your point of view, because you obviously love Daniel, love the club and want to see things in the best positive light, which all reflects well on you. If it makes you feel any better, I imagine that Daniel is sitting at home with a coffee and a cake, feeling very proud of what he achieved at Norwich and also a little relieved that it's all over. Time for us all to look forward if you ask me. See if you can transfer some of that Lakey positivity on to the new man.

Oh really? Last time I looked, the last five games is pretty much the standard benchmark for a team's form. And taking the last 20 Premier League games as a stick to beat Farke over the head with while ignoring they were two completely different squads in two completely different seasons with a whole Championship season in between wasn't selective in your view? 

Edited November 10, 2021 by littleyellowbirdie

[curious yellow 184]

Farke was a great manager for us, there is no doubt. Recently he had been talking about how we wanted to build a statue of him and how he has given us our best 2 seasons ever(not true) 

At the start of this season he said that he wouldn't take 17th place if it was offered. On Saturday he said he couldn't guarantee that we would stay up. He told us that we would have a bumpy start and that some games we have no chance to get anything from. 

This season he changes the system every game, he persist with strikers who don't know or forgotten how to score. He has been too harsh on players, he implies they are not trying but we see no evidence. Then he does not tell the truth for their omissions. But he will play his favourite players if they are unfit or injured. His style of management does not work at this level, we had become a laughing stock

We need extra motivation and ideas if we are to progress as a club. Sad but players have been banished for not being good enough in the Prem, the manager has had the same treatment. 

 

[Mengo 822]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh really? Last time I looked, the last five games is pretty much the standard benchmark for a team's form. And taking the last 20 Premier League games as a stick to beat Farke over the head with while ignoring they were two completely different squads in two completely different seasons with a whole Championship season in between wasn't selective in your view? 

Do you think it was time to move on?

Do you think we had a chance of staying up.

Everybody has opinions. Right or wrong.  But they are merely opinions. The Great Times in the 2nd tier were priceless .please move on. 

[Robert N. LiM 4,342]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh really? Last time I looked, the last five games is pretty much the standard benchmark for a teams form. And taking the last 20 Premier League games as a stick to beat Farke over the head with while ignoring they were two completely different squads in two completely different seasons with a whole Championship season in between wasn't selective in your view? 

You make two separate points here. On the five games thing, sure, it's the standard benchmark for a team's form, but if you're in Webber's shoes, you've got to take into account the opposition, and the level of performance, to judge whether you think the current coach is the right one to take the team forward. One win and two draws from that run of fixtures might put us 13th in the form table, but given the opposition and the level of performances, it didn't suggest to me that we were about to get ourselves back into the relegation dogfight. I imagine it didn't suggest that to Webber, either.

On the 20 Premier League games thing, I completely agree. Ludicrous to see those games as a continuous run without acknowledging (a) the impact of empty stadiums on five winnable home games and (b) the fact that we got 97 points in the Championship in the interim. That would be selective, and I don't think I've ever argued that. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

10 minutes ago, Mengo said:

Do you think it was time to move on?

Do you think we had a chance of staying up.

Everybody has opinions. Right or wrong.  But they are merely opinions. The Great Times in the 2nd tier were priceless .please move on. 

Overall, I had bought into the clubs mission statement of being a top 22 club, which allows for yoyoing. As such, I was fairly relaxed about the prospect of going down while I felt there was progress happening on the pitch, and there has been progress on the pitch. 

The decision to sack Farke isn't just a bid for Premier League survival, it's a statement that the club has now moved its targets to Premier League survival at all costs. That is the standard I will be judging our next manager against. I'll also be very interested to see how much Gilmour, Tzolis, and Cantwell feature under the new management and whether they'll add much to our performance. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by littleyellowbirdie

[Mengo 822]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Overall, I had bought into the clubs mission statement of being a top 22 club, which allows for yoyoing. As such, I was fairly relaxed about the prospect of going down while I felt there was progress happening on the pitch, and there has been progress on the pitch. 

The decision to sack Farke isn't just a bid for Premier League survival, it's a statement that the club has now moved its targets to Premier League survival at all costs. That is the standard I will be judging our next manager against. 

Well surely premier league survival for now is the name of the game. I would think this is without a doubt is where we are. This also puts to bed that we now do not except we are a yo yo club. You only sing when your winning comes to mind.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

Just now, Mengo said:

Well surely premier league survival for now is the name of the game. I would think this is without a doubt is where we are. This also puts to bed that we now do not except we are a yo yo club. You only sing when your winning comes to mind.

 

Doing as well as possible is always the name of the game. Minimum expectations are a different kettle of fish. And people who only sing when they're winning are a waste of space. 

[king canary 7,605]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The decision to sack Farke isn't just a bid for Premier League survival, it's a statement that the club has now moved its targets to Premier League survival at all costs. That is the standard I will be judging our next manager against. 

I think that's a bit of an extreme view.

Of course the club wants to survive and Farke wasn't putting us in the best position to do this. However I don't think it means survival at all costs but it was reaching a point where Farke was actively hurting the 'model' that we obsess about so much. Failure to consistently use and get the best from the young attacking talents like Rashica, Cantwell, Tzolis and Sargent. Struggling to get Gilmour going, thus potentially jeopardising our status as a great place for big teams to loan their young stars. If a new manager comes in and can get more from those players than Farke and at least put us in the fight, even if we still go down I think that manager would be seen as being something of a success.

 

[Mengo 822]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think that's a bit of an extreme view.

Of course the club wants to survive and Farke wasn't putting us in the best position to do this. However I don't think it means survival at all costs but it was reaching a point where Farke was actively hurting the 'model' that we obsess about so much. Failure to consistently use and get the best from the young attacking talents like Rashica, Cantwell, Tzolis and Sargent. Struggling to get Gilmour going, thus potentially jeopardising our status as a great place for big teams to loan their young stars. If a new manager comes in and can get more from those players than Farke and at least put us in the fight, even if we still go down I think that manager would be seen as being something of a success.

 

Thanks for this post. I was getting very tired and you have hit the nail on the head . The players are there. For why they have not been utilised baffles me

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,342]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think that's a bit of an extreme view.

Of course the club wants to survive and Farke wasn't putting us in the best position to do this. However I don't think it means survival at all costs but it was reaching a point where Farke was actively hurting the 'model' that we obsess about so much. Failure to consistently use and get the best from the young attacking talents like Rashica, Cantwell, Tzolis and Sargent. Struggling to get Gilmour going, thus potentially jeopardising our status as a great place for big teams to loan their young stars. If a new manager comes in and can get more from those players than Farke and at least put us in the fight, even if we still go down I think that manager would be seen as being something of a success.

 

This is a really good post and I imagine it's pretty close to Webber's view, too.

[Mengo 822]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

This is a really good post and I imagine it's pretty close to Webber's view, too.

Agree 100%

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think that's a bit of an extreme view.

Of course the club wants to survive and Farke wasn't putting us in the best position to do this. However I don't think it means survival at all costs but it was reaching a point where Farke was actively hurting the 'model' that we obsess about so much. Failure to consistently use and get the best from the young attacking talents like Rashica, Cantwell, Tzolis and Sargent. Struggling to get Gilmour going, thus potentially jeopardising our status as a great place for big teams to loan their young stars. If a new manager comes in and can get more from those players than Farke and at least put us in the fight, even if we still go down I think that manager would be seen as being something of a success.

 

Out of Cantwell, Rashica, Tzolis, and Sargeant, the only one who's in any way a known quantity is Cantwell, and he has had his ups and downs and the last time Farke excluded him, time proved that he'd done the right thing. The others are all new quantities and just assuming that Farke was at fault for them not being saviours is unfounded. 

All players asked since Farke's departure have had nothing but positive words for him, up to and including having faith in him. The signs on the pitch were that survival was becoming more of a possibility. The style of play was even starting to look a little bit more like what we had become used to in the Championship for significant stretches of games. The only measure against which his dismissal was justifiable was that survival was too important to make allowances or give any benefit of the doubt.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,090]

1 hour ago, Mengo said:

We can but hope. We were going nowhere recently. It's not an exact science football. But personally I feel that the players that are here are good enough to keep norwich . But this just my opinion. 

 

Can I ask which players you consider to be the 17th best (or better) in the division in their position? Which is effectively what we're looking for?

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

12 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Lakey, explain how getting rid of Webber would affect our results for the rest of this season for me please? 🤔

It’s not a zero sum game, that we had to sack one of them to give ourselves a chance of staying up. Or do you believe that because you like Farke, Webber has to go?

Of course, we didn't have to sack either of them but if the board decided that results were so poor, in their opinion, this season that someone did have to go then clearly it should have Webber since it is his poor summer signings that are the root cause of us being at the bottom of the table and not that Farke has suddenly been transformed into a poor coach.

In actual fact I don't think they were necessarily all poor signings - it could well have been that with a few months of Farke's coaching some may turn out to be fantastic players but they were clearly not ready to play Premiership football at the start of the season, in fact some of them weren't even here at the start of the season.

So, if Webber and the board haven't got the patience to wait for them to bed into the team then for this season they are the wrong signings no matter what their potential is, and Webber is responsible for that.

Personally, I would have preferred Webber to come clean and admit that these signings were very high risk for this season but will eventually come good and give us an even stronger foundation for the future. If that means we get relegated this year, so be it, it is almost certain to happen anyway and in Farke we already had the coach to develop those younger players and get us back up if we don't survive this year - pretty much what Webber was saying himself a week or so before he sacked Farke except he forgot to mention the high risk element.

IMO scapegoating Farke, to cover his own mistakes, is all about Webber's ambitions to move onto something bigger and better, in his opinion, than NCFC which is probably going to happen at the end of the season anyway - so just wish he'd done the right thing and gone now and left us with Farke to see what he could have achieved with those youngsters.

 

[king canary 7,605]

12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Out of Cantwell, Rashica, Tzolis, and Sargeant, the only one who's in any way a known quantity is Cantwell, and he has had his ups and downs and the last time Farke excluded him, time proved that he'd done the right thing. The others are all new quantities and just assuming that Farke was at fault for them not being saviours is unfounded. 

All players asked since Farke's departure have had nothing but positive words for him, up to and including having faith in him. The signs on the pitch were that survival was becoming more of a possibility. The style of play was even starting to look a little bit more like what we had become used to in the Championship for significant stretches of games. The only measure against which his dismissal was justifiable was that survival was too important to make allowances or give any benefit of the doubt.

Clearly Webber didn't agree with your take and I've got to say I don't either. We scraped a couple of draws, were easily beaten by a poor Leeds team and got a slightly smash and grab win v Brentford. You're obviously higher on Farke as a manager than me but I just didn't see much suggesting survival was looking at all likely. 

I never said the new players would be saviours. My point was that sacking Farke doesn't mean we've suddenly pivoted to survival at all cost, in my view it means Webber and the club didn't believe he was getting enough out of the players he was given. We invested decent sized sums (by our standards) into these players because Webber and co clearly believe they've got lots to offer. If Farke wasn't playing them but was getting results then fine but he was both getting awful results and causing players to decrease dramatically in value. For a club like us that isn't sustainable.

[king canary 7,605]

4 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Of course, we didn't have to sack either of them but if the board decided that results were so poor, in their opinion, this season that someone did have to go then clearly it should have Webber since it is his poor summer signings that are the root cause of us being at the bottom of the table and not that Farke has suddenly been transformed into a poor coach.

In actual fact I don't think they were necessarily all poor signings - it could well have been that with a few months of Farke's coaching some may turn out to be fantastic players but they were clearly not ready to play Premiership football at the start of the season, in fact some of them weren't even here at the start of the season.

So, if Webber and the board haven't got the patience to wait for them to bed into the team then for this season they are the wrong signings no matter what their potential is, and Webber is responsible for that.

I just don't understand this view point as it seems to absolve Farke of any responsibility for getting players ready and up to speed to compete in the Premier League, as if a coach and his tactics can never make a player or a team be more than a sum of their parts.

I'm also confused as to how you rationalise someone like Gibson into this. Farke has worked with Gibson for over a year and generally he's looked good until we got to the Premier League and suddenly he looks like a pub player. He isn't a world beater but he's not awful and yet under Farke this season he looked like he'd never played central defence before.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Clearly Webber didn't agree with your take and I've got to say I don't either. We scraped a couple of draws, were easily beaten by a poor Leeds team and got a slightly smash and grab win v Brentford. You're obviously higher on Farke as a manager than me but I just didn't see much suggesting survival was looking at all likely. 

I never said the new players would be saviours. My point was that sacking Farke doesn't mean we've suddenly pivoted to survival at all cost, in my view it means Webber and the club didn't believe he was getting enough out of the players he was given. We invested decent sized sums (by our standards) into these players because Webber and co clearly believe they've got lots to offer. If Farke wasn't playing them but was getting results then fine but he was both getting awful results and causing players to decrease dramatically in value. For a club like us that isn't sustainable.

I don't think survival was ever that likely. We'll have to see what Farke's successor does. If his successor fails to keep us up, then we won't know if this was really a mistake until we have a clear idea of what our chances of promotion are again next season without Farke at the helm.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

17 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Personally, I would have preferred Webber to come clean and admit that these signings were very high risk for this season but will eventually come good and give us an even stronger foundation for the future. If that means we get relegated this year, so be it, it is almost certain to happen anyway and in Farke we already had the coach to develop those younger players and get us back up if we don't survive this year - pretty much what Webber was saying himself a week or so before he sacked Farke except he forgot to mention the high risk element.

Kabak, Normann, Tzolis, Rashica, Williams, Gilmour, Giannoulis are all highly ambitious players who want to play PL football. They were signed with the intention of staying up this season and building even further from there, not  for soaking up a relegation and coming good in 12-18 months time. Lots of these players came with a very high reputation and I doubt too many of them will want to stick around in the championship to help us get back.

Webber clearly feels this way and I have to say I agree, if you think that what we have seen from Farke is the best we could possibly expect from these players (at this point in their NCFC career) then apologies but I think you are mistaken.

Performances have ranged from totally inept on every single measure and lacking in fight and structure, at worst, to semi-competent with a bit of fight at their very best. Our best performances to me feel like 5-6/10 performances. It’s miles away from what is possible from these players IMO.

When you consider further that players like Cantwell, Gilmour and Tzolis have also fallen almost completely out of favour then it’s clear to see why Webber thought a change was needed.

Its a brave call from Webber as an unsuccessful appointment will mean nearly all the blame of the season sits at his door, whether it be poor player recruitment or a poor managerial one, but I think a new face was ultimately needed. 

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Hank shoots Skyler
can't spell

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

I just don't understand this view point as it seems to absolve Farke of any responsibility for getting players ready and up to speed to compete in the Premier League, as if a coach and his tactics can never make a player or a team be more than a sum of their parts.

I'm also confused as to how you rationalise someone like Gibson into this. Farke has worked with Gibson for over a year and generally he's looked good until we got to the Premier League and suddenly he looks like a pub player. He isn't a world beater but he's not awful and yet under Farke this season he looked like he'd never played central defence before.

There's a question of realism in there. There was hardly any pre-season this season and some players arrived late. 

All the newcomers have great potential, but there's virtually no experience at this level. I have no idea why Gibson suddenly looking poor at Premier League level after looking good at Championship level automatically indicates a failure on Farke's part either; they're not puppets. 

[king canary 7,605]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's a question of realism in there. There was hardly any pre-season this season and some players arrived late. 

All the newcomers have great potential, but there's virtually no experience at this level. I have no idea why Gibson suddenly looking poor at Premier League level after looking good at Championship level automatically indicates a failure on Farke's part either; they're not puppets. 

No they aren't but there is a pattern here.

Gibson and Giannoulis look excellent in the Championship but look awful in the Premier League.

Kabak looks solid for 6 months at Liverpool, looks lost here.

Rashica scores 17 goals and has 11 assists over the last three Bundesliga seasons, has managed 1 assist this season and seems entirely out of place.

Billy Gilmour looks like the standout talent in a limited Scotland team, looks completely exposed for us etc etc.

If Farke was getting good performances from some but let down by others then sure, blame the players. But I'd argue every single player has underperformed this season apart from maybe Normann and Hanley and at some point you have to ask what is the guy responsible for the training, coaching and tactics doing to rectify this? 

We're 11 games into the season. To keep blaming pre season is a bit lame at this point. All clubs suffer set backs at times, if having to cancel a couple of friendlies means the season is a total write off then I don't know what to say.  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,547]

19 minutes ago, king canary said:

No they aren't but there is a pattern here.

Gibson and Giannoulis look excellent in the Championship but look awful in the Premier League.

Kabak looks solid for 6 months at Liverpool, looks lost here.

Rashica scores 17 goals and has 11 assists over the last three Bundesliga seasons, has managed 1 assist this season and seems entirely out of place.

Billy Gilmour looks like the standout talent in a limited Scotland team, looks completely exposed for us etc etc.

If Farke was getting good performances from some but let down by others then sure, blame the players. But I'd argue every single player has underperformed this season apart from maybe Normann and Hanley and at some point you have to ask what is the guy responsible for the training, coaching and tactics doing to rectify this? 

We're 11 games into the season. To keep blaming pre season is a bit lame at this point. All clubs suffer set backs at times, if having to cancel a couple of friendlies means the season is a total write off then I don't know what to say.  

Ultimately, if you have enough players that aren't getting it then all of the players will finish up looking bad, because it's a team sport. And this is arguably the most brutal and competitive league in the world to be coming into with your L plates on.

What begs belief for me is that people still question Farke's ability to motivate young players, get the best out of them after he delivered us two Championship titles; After decades of 'the Championship's the most difficult league to get out of', I find it amazing that people take that for granted to such an incredible extent when painting a picture of a hapless manager out of his depth. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

11 minutes ago, king canary said:

I just don't understand this view point as it seems to absolve Farke of any responsibility for getting players ready and up to speed to compete in the Premier League, as if a coach and his tactics can never make a player or a team be more than a sum of their parts.

I'm also confused as to how you rationalise someone like Gibson into this. Farke has worked with Gibson for over a year and generally he's looked good until we got to the Premier League and suddenly he looks like a pub player. He isn't a world beater but he's not awful and yet under Farke this season he looked like he'd never played central defence before.

I'm not trying to absolve Farke of the responsibility for getting players ready - as I pointed out some of the players weren't even available - I think we had already lost our first 4 games before Normann who is currently looking the pick of the signings arrived. Others, as I also said, simply are not 'ready' in terms of their development and experience for Premiership football and no way can Farke or any manager change that in a few weeks.

I mean, take Sargeant, as one of the new signings that has been given a reasonable amount of game time and fair play to him put in a lot of effort when he was on the pitch but I'm baflled as to what you think Farke, or any other coach, can do to make him start scoring the sitters he's missed other than to keep playing and hope once he buries one they start to flow but neither Webber or many of the fans have got the patience to wait for that to happen - hence my opinion that Webber has signed the wrong players for this season if the only goal is staying up which it seems it pretty clear is the case now - so I think with that remit whoever is appointing we are going to be looking at some extremely grim football in the months to come.

As to Gibson, I think that is pretty straightforward - I think Gibson is a pretty decent centre half even in the Premier, think he proved that at Burnley before whatever went wrong up there went wrong. But he is a centre half and like most centre halves in the modern game is used to having at least one competent defensive midfielder in front of him. Last year he had Skipp and occassionally Tettey in front of him, but this year........?? 

OK, if Normann had arrived at the start of the summer then maybe things would have been a bit different but the truth is even he is not a genuine replacement for Tettey/Skipp. That surely should have been one of Webber's top priorities for the summer and it must have been pretty obvious to Webber early on that Skipp wasn't coming back - so maybe he should have splashed the cash on a really good defensive midfielder rather than young attacking players with future potential. Tzolis for example reminds me of a young Redmond, gets the crowd on their feet every time he runs with the ball and then sits them down again with his final ball. It is a medium to long term coaching project to turn him into a really top player.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

18 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm not trying to absolve Farke of the responsibility for getting players ready - as I pointed out some of the players weren't even available - I think we had already lost our first 4 games before Normann who is currently looking the pick of the signings arrived. Others, as I also said, simply are not 'ready' in terms of their development and experience for Premiership football and no way can Farke or any manager change that in a few weeks.

I mean, take Sargeant, as one of the new signings that has been given a reasonable amount of game time and fair play to him put in a lot of effort when he was on the pitch but I'm baflled as to what you think Farke, or any other coach, can do to make him start scoring the sitters he's missed other than to keep playing and hope once he buries one they start to flow but neither Webber or many of the fans have got the patience to wait for that to happen - hence my opinion that Webber has signed the wrong players for this season if the only goal is staying up which it seems it pretty clear is the case now - so I think with that remit whoever is appointing we are going to be looking at some extremely grim football in the months to come.

As to Gibson, I think that is pretty straightforward - I think Gibson is a pretty decent centre half even in the Premier, think he proved that at Burnley before whatever went wrong up there went wrong. But he is a centre half and like most centre halves in the modern game is used to having at least one competent defensive midfielder in front of him. Last year he had Skipp and occassionally Tettey in front of him, but this year........?? 

OK, if Normann had arrived at the start of the summer then maybe things would have been a bit different but the truth is even he is not a genuine replacement for Tettey/Skipp. That surely should have been one of Webber's top priorities for the summer and it must have been pretty obvious to Webber early on that Skipp wasn't coming back - so maybe he should have splashed the cash on a really good defensive midfielder rather than young attacking players with future potential. Tzolis for example reminds me of a young Redmond, gets the crowd on their feet every time he runs with the ball and then sits them down again with his final ball. It is a medium to long term coaching project to turn him into a really top player.

I agree with your criticisms to be fair CM, but I still think a better coach could get much more from these players. Sadly it may be too much to keep us up, but I expect us to become much more competitive than we have been with Webber's next appointment. If that doesn't prove the case then you will certainly be right - all will be told by the end of the season! 

[TheBaldOne66 682]

His success phenomenal, LDC? What about his abject failure at the top level? Or doesn’t that count?

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I think Gibson is a pretty decent centre half even in the Premier, think he proved that at Burnley before whatever went wrong up there went wrong.

He played literally 1 game for Burnley in the prem.

I mean, he scored in that 1 game, but it still makes your statement look a bit silly. 

[king canary 7,605]

Just now, TeemuVanBasten said:

He played literally 1 game for Burnley in the prem.

I mean, he scored in that 1 game, but it still makes your statement look a bit silly. 

He was also played regularly for Boro in the top flight at a level which got an England call up.