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New stadium for Norwich City f.c

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1 hour ago, vos said:

It is stated that promotion to the Premiership can bring in around an extra £170 million. In most businesses this would allow for  massive long term improvements in such items as plant, machinery and infrastructure. Unfortunately in football such income goes straight out of the window on grossly overpaid players, transfer fees and agents etc. We have little alternative than to remain at Carrow Road with little increase in capacity coupled with fairly average facilities - particularly the toilets.

 

The problem with that total is that it includes the parachute payments that account for over a third of that money in the three years following relegation if you are not promoted back before then. 

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36 minutes ago, Danbury Yellow said:

All fair comments, and I guess it depends what kind of new stadium you want in regards to specification.  Spurs nearly hit the Billion, and the new Stamford Bridge was coming in over a billion, hence why it got cancelled. Brentford more reasonable at about £4300/seat. 
New stadia design has moved on somewhat since those stadiums where built, they are as budget as you can get. Think Cardiff city too. Now a massive focus on seat space and view, executive package opportunity, customer experience everywhere, stadium technology, AV, lighting and also an architectural design that makes the stadiums have a wow factor…..all adds up. My thinking on budget was one of likely grandeur, if we had deep pockets who wouldn’t want a stunner of a home ground?

Good recent examples are Fulham’s new stand, I think that’s about £80m on its own, but the design is of a very high standard.  

In my view, if the board wanted to move house, it would be only worth it if it was built to make it really worth moving and taking the club to the next level…..hence the high cost.  But I know it won’t happen 100%. Focus is on option 1 of main stand redevelopment. 

I was actually involved in Colchester’s ground, that was as cheap as chips and it looks it too.  (Warning, the next sentence may make some of you cough up some sick) I was involved in the two new stands at Portman Road, they obviously were cheap…..although I did try to screw Sheepshanks.  And got banned from their boardroom for submitting an invoice in yellow and green. True story!!! I can only publicly apologise for my involvement there…..been meaning to get that of my chest for years!!! Dark days !! 
Also Luton Town, plans are a big government grant plus redeveloping a massive site and using that to support the funding of the stadium.  All options possible really.  
 

 

I suppose I maybe now understand why Wolves did what they did to Molineux

Edited by The Great Mass Debater

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2 hours ago, vos said:

It is stated that promotion to the Premiership can bring in around an extra £170 million. In most businesses this would allow for  massive long term improvements in such items as plant, machinery and infrastructure. Unfortunately in football such income goes straight out of the window on grossly overpaid players, transfer fees and agents etc. We have little alternative than to remain at Carrow Road with little increase in capacity coupled with fairly average facilities - particularly the toilets.

 

How about we get to the Premier League, spend no money and go down again keeping the money. No? I’m sure Talk Sport would love it.

Edited by Nuff Said

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3 hours ago, Greavsy said:

Careful, youll wake up a certain poster asking for another bond offering to fund it - with a free seat, that he could pass to his kids 

Another reason why the scheme is pie in the sky is that fan finance on the level of the 2018 bond scheme is uneconomic whilst fan finance on the basis of 2002 shareholding didn't attract sufficient funds and hasn't exactly encouraged those who did make generous contributions. 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, daly said:

Was at the AGM when it came up at the time the pitch was moved a few feet  and the figure mentioned was £3500 per seat

It will be a long time coming under the present regime 

Well the previous regime had a fantastic opportunity to build a decent sized new City Stand paid for with insurance money - and they totally fu**ed it up didn't they?  (And to the think that our illustrious chairman at the time was allegedly a builder 🤦‍♂️ )

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31 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Another reason why the scheme is pie in the sky is that fan finance on the level of the 2018 bond scheme is uneconomic whilst fan finance on the basis of 2002 shareholding didn't attract sufficient funds and hasn't exactly encouraged those who did make generous contributions. 

 

And here he is............ dragging his shroud around the message board.

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Would love to see some of the facilities updated in some of the more tired looking areas of the stadium as well as the city stand but Webber has said multiple times the priority is getting the club stable in the prem and that means funding improvements to the playing squad and facilities to attract them and rightly so

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7 minutes ago, AJ said:

Would love to see some of the facilities updated in some of the more tired looking areas of the stadium as well as the city stand but Webber has said multiple times the priority is getting the club stable in the prem and that means funding improvements to the playing squad and facilities to attract them and rightly so

I think Webber is putting the cart before the horse. A self-funded club like ours is much less likely to become PL regulars without a big increase in capacity.

You can see how far behind the club has fallen in the last 25-30 years by our capacity. Since around 1990 we've only got an extra  5000 or so, but at present could probably get attandances somewhere between 40,000-50,000.

We've been here before many times. As soon as we get PL money, every last penny is thrown into a futile effort to stay up. Then post-releagtion it's a repeat cycle of throwing every last penny trying to get promoted and hence into a position to upgrade the stadium.

For pretty much the same reasons, Colney was allowed to rot for the last 25 years.

Any talk by the club about a new stadium or substantial upgrade in capacity being contingent on becoming established in the PL is merely an excuse to go rainbow chasing.

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8 hours ago, Danbury Yellow said:

All fair comments, and I guess it depends what kind of new stadium you want in regards to specification.  Spurs nearly hit the Billion, and the new Stamford Bridge was coming in over a billion, hence why it got cancelled. Brentford more reasonable at about £4300/seat. 
New stadia design has moved on somewhat since those stadiums where built, they are as budget as you can get. Think Cardiff city too. Now a massive focus on seat space and view, executive package opportunity, customer experience everywhere, stadium technology, AV, lighting and also an architectural design that makes the stadiums have a wow factor…..all adds up. My thinking on budget was one of likely grandeur, if we had deep pockets who wouldn’t want a stunner of a home ground?

Good recent examples are Fulham’s new stand, I think that’s about £80m on its own, but the design is of a very high standard.  

In my view, if the board wanted to move house, it would be only worth it if it was built to make it really worth moving and taking the club to the next level…..hence the high cost.  But I know it won’t happen 100%. Focus is on option 1 of main stand redevelopment. 

I was actually involved in Colchester’s ground, that was as cheap as chips and it looks it too.  (Warning, the next sentence may make some of you cough up some sick) I was involved in the two new stands at Portman Road, they obviously were cheap…..although I did try to screw Sheepshanks.  And got banned from their boardroom for submitting an invoice in yellow and green. True story!!! I can only publicly apologise for my involvement there…..been meaning to get that of my chest for years!!! Dark days !! 
Also Luton Town, plans are a big government grant plus redeveloping a massive site and using that to support the funding of the stadium.  All options possible really.  
 

Great story! Can you confirm or deny that Norwich shirts were incorporated into the structure of the stands? Always heard there is some Norwich merch built in where it can’t be seen?

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6 hours ago, 4th floor said:

Since around 1990 we've only got an extra  5000 or so, but at present could probably get attandances somewhere between 40,000-50,000.

Er, no we couldn't. 35K at best, and probably only when we're doing really well.

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7 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

And here he is............ dragging his shroud around the message board.

So clearly you can't offer ah intelligent comment on that then Thirsty.

Just for reference the shareholding I have could reasonably be said to cover 44 seats. At £4,000 per seat that is £168,000. If I had say a small house worth that my heirs would still be able to claim the rent beyond my lifetime.

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55 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Great story! Can you confirm or deny that Norwich shirts were incorporated into the structure of the stands? Always heard there is some Norwich merch built in where it can’t be seen?

All the steel was made in Norfolk. There was uproar on the shop floor.  The very large steel lattice beams that sit above the roof are hollow circular steels.  I was told at the time flags, scarfs and shirts were stuffed into these.  I’ve never been too sure if it was true, but I’ve always assumed it is because I walked that factory and I promise…..they said it was happening!!!!! So the highest thing flying above that dump is the yellow and green…..pahahaha!!!!

Edited by Danbury Yellow
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4 minutes ago, Danbury Yellow said:

All the steel was made in Norfolk. There was uproar on the shop floor.  The very large steel lattice beams that sit above the roof are hollow circular steels.  I was told at the time flags, scarfs and shirts were stuff into these.  I’ve never been too sure if it was true, but I’ve always assumed it is because I walked that factory and I promise…..they said it was happening!!!!! So the highest thing flying above that dump is the yellow and green…..pahahaha!!!!

I always heard this rumour and I’m more convinced it’s true now, many thanks for you and your colleagues service to NCFC

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7 hours ago, 4th floor said:


You can see how far behind the club has fallen in the last 25-30 years by our capacity. Since around 1990 we've only got an extra  5000 or so, but at present could probably get attandances somewhere between 40,000-50,000.

 

Not the faintest possibility of getting those sort of gates. A 35k stadium would be hard enough to fill on any regular basis.

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10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Not the faintest possibility of getting those sort of gates. A 35k stadium would be hard enough to fill on any regular basis.

Yes, 35, 000 would be our ceiling, but we could cash in with extra for the bigger clubs if the stadium is to house PL games. That is getting ahead of ourselves, though, considering our present position and the precarious nature of the self-funding model in the modern game.

I am not a traditionalist, but wouldn't want a new stadium in place of the Carra. This is not much sentiment talking, but practicality. By luck or judgement it is in a convenient and prominent place within the City. Neither does the site as a whole seem particularly confined and, whilst not a massive area I recall, for example, the rows of terraces confining one side of Villa Park and other major grounds. Perhaps I have that wrong regards Carrow Road. 

One cannot help but wonder though just how much the site as an entirity would fetch for (exclusive riverside) development. Selling the site for this has funded many a new stadia.

At the end of the day and considering the value of land and infra-structure (including Colney) in the club's ownership then I feel that the ownership/management of the club has been overmuch timid with regards to expansion for most of their tenure. As I have said before, risk averse.

If that car crash down the road is worth £40m, then what is our club worth? Their occupancy ceiling is probably nearer to 25, 000 to boot. 

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15 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Yes, 35, 000 would be our ceiling, but we could cash in with extra for the bigger clubs if the stadium is to house PL games. That is getting ahead of ourselves, though, considering our present position and the precarious nature of the self-funding model in the modern game.

I am not a traditionalist, but wouldn't want a new stadium in place of the Carra. This is not much sentiment talking, but practicality. By luck or judgement it is in a convenient and prominent place within the City. Neither does the site as a whole seem particularly confined and, whilst not a massive area I recall, for example, the rows of terraces confining one side of Villa Park and other major grounds. Perhaps I have that wrong regards Carrow Road. 

One cannot help but wonder though just how much the site as an entirity would fetch for (exclusive riverside) development. Selling the site for this has funded many a new stadia.

At the end of the day and considering the value of land and infra-structure (including Colney) in the club's ownership then I feel that the ownership/management of the club has been overmuch timid with regards to expansion for most of their tenure. As I have said before, risk averse.

If that car crash down the road is worth £40m, then what is our club worth? Their occupancy ceiling is probably nearer to 25, 000 to boot. 

Generally speaking, as people get older they become more risk averse and more resistant to change.

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12 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Yes, 35, 000 would be our ceiling, but we could cash in with extra for the bigger clubs if the stadium is to house PL games. That is getting ahead of ourselves, though, considering our present position and the precarious nature of the self-funding model in the modern game.

I am not a traditionalist, but wouldn't want a new stadium in place of the Carra. This is not much sentiment talking, but practicality. By luck or judgement it is in a convenient and prominent place within the City. Neither does the site as a whole seem particularly confined and, whilst not a massive area I recall, for example, the rows of terraces confining one side of Villa Park and other major grounds. Perhaps I have that wrong regards Carrow Road. 

One cannot help but wonder though just how much the site as an entirity would fetch for (exclusive riverside) development. Selling the site for this has funded many a new stadia.

At the end of the day and considering the value of land and infra-structure (including Colney) in the club's ownership then I feel that the ownership/management of the club has been overmuch timid with regards to expansion for most of their tenure. As I have said before, risk averse.

If that car crash down the road is worth £40m, then what is our club worth? Their occupancy ceiling is probably nearer to 25, 000 to boot. 

The space around the main stand will always restrict the actual capacity of it.  It’s about 4000 seats right now, can probably go to about 8000 or to 10,000 if they get clever with design giving us around 31,000 to 33,000 as capacity. But there is scope to add on the South stand too, but I think once main stand works completed that will be it for many years. 

A move from Carrow Road only happens if we have a massive financial injection. 
 

I’ve always thought 35,000 is our max requirement too, Carrow Road could get to that number.  

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As  self-funding club we MUST expand our capacity to its natural limits to ensure that we maximise revenues - the extra seating/ commercial office capacity/ venue capacity would comfortably pay for itself and would be profitable. Without definite knowledge, 35,000 seems sensible capacity to me, especially with a cheaper family area to encourage the next generation of fans.  I have no idea how much this would cost, but going with a previous estimate of £40 million, I would have thought that this would be comfortably affordable on long-term finance.

Spurs are paying 2.66% on their loans for their new stadium. If we were to get a similar deal (and we are debt-free) we would pay about £2.2 million pa for 25 years with a total cost of £55 million (the extra £15 million being interest). A flexible loan would enable us to pay off chunks of this (e.g. 5% of any transfer revenue received). It would also be tax-deductible and would result in lower corporation tax.

To put this in context, even if it did not generate a single penny, it is about what we pay for a top player now and probably less than we are paying Brandon Williams (over time it is likely to be far less in proportionate terms). Of course, we would generate extra revenue from it both in seating capacity + commercial opportunities (e.g office space near the city centre and the station with ample parking + entertainment).

The down side is when. I have always felt that the ground has lost atmosphere in previous stand building, so we will lose our "12th man" when we might need them + you can only have one top priority.

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9 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Well the previous regime had a fantastic opportunity to build a decent sized new City Stand paid for with insurance money - and they totally fu**ed it up didn't they?  (And to the think that our illustrious chairman at the time was allegedly a builder 🤦‍♂️ )

That was 36 years ago and the insurance money as a result of the fire was paid out under the Sir Arthur South regime .

I am no Chase fan but please don't rewrite history.

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I heard from a reliable sauce we are going to form a new club in a new stadium with Ipswich. They have already agreed a new name for the club keeping City as Ipswich have always wanted to be a City but splitting the first names up of the new club keeping wich from Ipswich and Nor from Norwich. Wonder what the new club will be called 🤣

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

As  self-funding club we MUST expand our capacity to its natural limits to ensure that we maximise revenues - the extra seating/ commercial office capacity/ venue capacity would comfortably pay for itself and would be profitable. Without definite knowledge, 35,000 seems sensible capacity to me, especially with a cheaper family area to encourage the next generation of fans.  I have no idea how much this would cost, but going with a previous estimate of £40 million, I would have thought that this would be comfortably affordable on long-term finance.

Spurs are paying 2.66% on their loans for their new stadium. If we were to get a similar deal (and we are debt-free) we would pay about £2.2 million pa for 25 years with a total cost of £55 million (the extra £15 million being interest). A flexible loan would enable us to pay off chunks of this (e.g. 5% of any transfer revenue received). It would also be tax-deductible and would result in lower corporation tax.

To put this in context, even if it did not generate a single penny, it is about what we pay for a top player now and probably less than we are paying Brandon Williams (over time it is likely to be far less in proportionate terms). Of course, we would generate extra revenue from it both in seating capacity + commercial opportunities (e.g office space near the city centre and the station with ample parking + entertainment).

The down side is when. I have always felt that the ground has lost atmosphere in previous stand building, so we will lose our "12th man" when we might need them + you can only have one top priority.

Good analysis Badger, I have come to a similar conclusion in the past. 

As for when, what is interesting this season the City Stand has been much less full than other parts of the ground.  A lot is to do with Covid, but if people who sit in that stand are that averse to the risks involved in attending public events at the moment, they would surely not be that bothered about having to mix with the hoi polloi in future years.  Thus the "noise" from having to relocate these fans I think will be less than many people have feared. 

Phasing the build so that lower tier attendance can be made available before full completion of the rest of the stand is possible if costly(albeit open to the elements).  

Given the lessons of the past decades yo-yo'ing I think the argument for more on-site development at the Carra becomes strategically more vital if we are to achieve that top 17 aspiration.

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

As  self-funding club we MUST expand our capacity to its natural limits to ensure that we maximise revenues - the extra seating/ commercial office capacity/ venue capacity would comfortably pay for itself and would be profitable. Without definite knowledge, 35,000 seems sensible capacity to me, especially with a cheaper family area to encourage the next generation of fans.  I have no idea how much this would cost, but going with a previous estimate of £40 million, I would have thought that this would be comfortably affordable on long-term finance.

Spurs are paying 2.66% on their loans for their new stadium. If we were to get a similar deal (and we are debt-free) we would pay about £2.2 million pa for 25 years with a total cost of £55 million (the extra £15 million being interest). A flexible loan would enable us to pay off chunks of this (e.g. 5% of any transfer revenue received). It would also be tax-deductible and would result in lower corporation tax.

To put this in context, even if it did not generate a single penny, it is about what we pay for a top player now and probably less than we are paying Brandon Williams (over time it is likely to be far less in proportionate terms). Of course, we would generate extra revenue from it both in seating capacity + commercial opportunities (e.g office space near the city centre and the station with ample parking + entertainment).

The down side is when. I have always felt that the ground has lost atmosphere in previous stand building, so we will lose our "12th man" when we might need them + you can only have one top priority.

Just on losing a stand while construction underway.  There is an option that retains the terrace of the main stand, (which is just concrete with seats on it, no need to remove it as any new structure could be independent from the existing) while the new upper tier and new roof are constructed behind.  Then, once works behind are suitably progressed, the roof of the existing main stand is removed, and then a link terrace formed to join the two plus new internal facilities, this final phase planned in the close season. It’s pretty much a standard way to extend stands these days to not lose attendance.  The best recent example is Liverpool’s new extended main stand, very clever sequencing.  
The fly in the ointment may well be the depth of Carrow Road behind, it’s not exactly generous before it meets that new road (whatever that’s called) and as I mentioned earlier, this may end up being a hindrance in final main stand capacity, and a full new build might therefore be their final conclusion.  And also, the angle of the existing terrance is quite high, which adds further problems in regards to overall height and depth. A new design would have a similar rake to the lower terraces in the the ground to maximise the space available.  
I’ve been hoping they do this for years, I agree it’s a must have, and I think it will happen sooner than some think.  I recall they purchased the required land a couple of years back, I’d imagine after this some reasonable options have already been completed.  It’s now a matter of getting the costs and finance right…planning permission and suitable programme. 
 

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16 hours ago, Norfolk Mustard said:

Broadland Gate near Postwick would be an excellent location. There's enough space next to the NDR for a new stadium, car & coach parking, helipad, park & ride buses, new rail link & retail services (new McDonalds opened there just over a week ago). A new stadium would need to seat 40,000-45,000 to make it a worthwhile sport & music venue though?

Is the new McDonald’s the clincher??

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6 hours ago, Danbury Yellow said:

All the steel was made in Norfolk. There was uproar on the shop floor.  The very large steel lattice beams that sit above the roof are hollow circular steels.  I was told at the time flags, scarfs and shirts were stuffed into these.  I’ve never been too sure if it was true, but I’ve always assumed it is because I walked that factory and I promise…..they said it was happening!!!!! So the highest thing flying above that dump is the yellow and green…..pahahaha!!!!

If that is true, that is some top-quality trolling, gotta say! 😄 

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2 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Until we start selling out Carrow Rd week in, week out the necessity for a new ground just isn't there. 

Err we do. Yes I know it’s possible to buy single seats here and there, particularly after a pandemic and when buy backs are included, but broadly the stadium is sold out week in and week out. Improved facilities and the ability for friends to sit together would improve attendance. Think we could quite easily cope with a capacity of 35,000. I also think this is achievable at Carrow Road. Why move out of a central facility which is close to the station?

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1 hour ago, Commonsense said:

Err we do. Yes I know it’s possible to buy single seats here and there, particularly after a pandemic and when buy backs are included, but broadly the stadium is sold out week in and week out. Improved facilities and the ability for friends to sit together would improve attendance. Think we could quite easily cope with a capacity of 35,000. I also think this is achievable at Carrow Road. Why move out of a central facility which is close to the station?

Err we don't.

Capacity of 27244.

Liverpool - 27023
Leicester - 26765
Watford - 26649
Brighton - 26777
Leeds - 26913

General sale tickets for Southampton and Wolves are available in abundance. 

We wouldn't get close to filling 35k, there's no evidence whatsoever that we would. We'd end up with empty seats and an atmosphere even worse than we have now. 

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18 minutes ago, Terminally Yellow said:

Err we don't.

Capacity of 27244.

Liverpool - 27023
Leicester - 26765
Watford - 26649
Brighton - 26777
Leeds - 26913

General sale tickets for Southampton and Wolves are available in abundance. 

We wouldn't get close to filling 35k, there's no evidence whatsoever that we would. We'd end up with empty seats and an atmosphere even worse than we have now. 

Have you read the post? How many double seats free??

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