Are we playing a dangerous game?

[benchwarmer 625]

The club's repeated use of parachute payments to 'self-fund' is coming under scrutiny.  Failing to win is not a crime; failing to adopt a competitive strategy undermines the whole ethos of football and ultimately destroys it.  It becomes pointless, in more ways than one.

Why is it dangerous?  Because it gives ammunition to those who would like to see a closed PL with no automatic promotion or relegation.  Whatever the criteria for admission to such a league, we can be pretty sure that NCFC wouldn't fit the bill.  Then where would we be, financially speaking - and more importantly, where would English football be?

Edited November 5, 2021 by benchwarmer

[The Real Buh 3,432]

I want to see a closed premier league 

Id prefer it, and I believe it would be better for us and all other teams, if the big clubs just did one and played in Europe every week.

the disparity is now so massive there’s no point in us playing one another. It’s a joke.

[lake district canary 4,531]

Who is failing to compete? We're struggling, but we are competing and Chelsea excepted, have been pretty close to every team we've played in the last month so there is something there.

It is not dangerous either.  We saw what happened when the top clubs tried to pull away to a non promotion/relegation league - there was uproar across the whole of football and they were made to backtrack pretty sharpish. So it's not going to happen. We are not the USA who do that sort of thing, and never will be.

Self-funding is not for everyone, but there is nothing wrong with it and parachute payments are necessary to help all clubs bridge the divide between the two leagues.

[canarydan23 4,060]

33 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

undermines the whole ethos of football

What do you think the whole ethos of football in England is, currently? Your post reads as if it is one of sporting competition and integrity. But this is absolutely not the case. The whole ethos of football in the EPL has been warped to such an extent that you can barely call it a sport anymore. If two companies launch similar products to a market and one has a thousand times the resources to advertise and promote theirs compared to the other, it's virtually certain which one will succeed and watching which one takes the victory cannot be described as a sporting spectacle. And so it is with football. When matters off the pitch have more relevance, significance and influence than what happens on the pitch (the actual sport bit) then it's a hard sell to call it a sport. It's a corporate entertainment more akin to WWE wrestling than it is proper sports like Golf, Snooker, Tennis etc. Hell, we're at the point now where road cycling in the 90s and 00s had more integrity and credibility as a sport than Premier League football.

I agree that we undermine it the ethos, but only by trying to play the game without reliance on external billionaires and under the illusion that it is still a sport. It's probably why we constantly get such a bum deal with referees and the "random" fixture generator compared to other promoted teams. Get on board with financial doping or get out of the club.

[City 2nd 191]

3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Who is failing to compete? We're struggling, but we are competing and Chelsea excepted, have been pretty close to every team we've played in the last month so there is something there.

It is not dangerous either.  We saw what happened when the top clubs tried to pull away to a non promotion/relegation league - there was uproar across the whole of football and they were made to backtrack pretty sharpish. So it's not going to happen. We are not the USA who do that sort of thing, and never will be.

Self-funding is not for everyone, but there is nothing wrong with it and parachute payments are necessary to help all clubs bridge the divide between the two leagues.

Do you understand the words ‘compete’ and ‘struggling’?

competing 
adjective

1. striving against one another to gain or win something.

    

    

   struggling

   adjective

    

   1. striving to achieve or attain something in the face of difficulty or resistance.

       

      I think, like you, Daniel Farke, Stuart Webber, the owners and board of NCFC have little concept of these definitions either when it comes to the top league of the EPL.

    

    

[benchwarmer 625]

43 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

The club's repeated use of the parachute payments to 'self-fund' is coming under scrutiny.  Failing to win is not a crime; failing to adopt a competitive strategy undermines the whole ethos of football and ultimately destroys it.  It becomes pointless, in more ways than one.

Why is it dangerous?  Because it gives ammunition to those who would like to see a closed PL with no automatic promotion or relegation.  Whatever the criteria for admission to such a league, we can be pretty sure that NCFC wouldn't fit the bill.  Then where would we be - and more importantly, where would English football be?

 

[benchwarmer 625]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

What do you think the whole ethos of football in England is, currently? Your post reads as if it is one of sporting competition and integrity. But this is absolutely not the case. The whole ethos of football in the EPL has been warped to such an extent that you can barely call it a sport anymore. If two companies launch similar products to a market and one has a thousand times the resources to advertise and promote theirs compared to the other, it's virtually certain which one will succeed and watching which one takes the victory cannot be described as a sporting spectacle. And so it is with football. When matters off the pitch have more relevance, significance and influence than what happens on the pitch (the actual sport bit) then it's a hard sell to call it a sport. It's a corporate entertainment more akin to WWE wrestling than it is proper sports like Golf, Snooker, Tennis etc. Hell, we're at the point now where road cycling in the 90s and 00s had more integrity and credibility as a sport than Premier League football.

I agree that we undermine it the ethos, but only by trying to play the game without reliance on external billionaires and under the illusion that it is still a sport. It's probably why we constantly get such a bum deal with referees and the "random" fixture generator compared to other promoted teams. Get on board with financial doping or get out of the club.

I would get out if I could, but the problem is that I love my club and so I hate to see it prostitute itself in this way.  If you just accept the way things are, you compromise your own integrity.  Once you do that you lose the one thing that distinguishes humans from animals.

Edited November 5, 2021 by benchwarmer

[yellow_belly 226]

30 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Who is failing to compete? We're struggling, but we are competing and Chelsea excepted, have been pretty close to every team we've played in the last month so there is something there.

It is not dangerous either.  We saw what happened when the top clubs tried to pull away to a non promotion/relegation league - there was uproar across the whole of football and they were made to backtrack pretty sharpish. So it's not going to happen. We are not the USA who do that sort of thing, and never will be.

Self-funding is not for everyone, but there is nothing wrong with it and parachute payments are necessary to help all clubs bridge the divide between the two leagues.

LDC I would be interested in your definition of struggling 😂 

Attached the stats for the PL under DF. Rather depressing.

 

[lake district canary 4,531]

Sigh, ok I'll try again.  "We are struggling to compete" or putting it another way, "we are competing but it is a struggle"

Ok, have you got it now?  Or how many different ways do you want it put?  It's tough. It's a struggle, but the nature of competitive football is to strive to be better, to turn the struggle into points. Overcome adversity. I mean, we get it.

Now I suggest all those obsessed with how awful things are just get off the bandwagon for a while and try getting "up" for tomorrow's game. 

[yellow_belly 226]

Or we are in the competition but struggling badly. So a change would not make us any less competitive in this competition?!

[mannings bandy legs 385]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Sigh, ok I'll try again.  "We are struggling to compete" or putting it another way, "we are competing but it is a struggle"

Ok, have you got it now?  Or how many different ways do you want it put?  It's tough. It's a struggle, but the nature of competitive football is to strive to be better, to turn the struggle into points. Overcome adversity. I mean, we get it.

Now I suggest all those obsessed with how awful things are just get off the bandwagon for a while and try getting "up" for tomorrow's game. 

Try and get up and then listen to  Daniel's presser today.....self funding club,young players with no experience in EPL,how good Brentford are,underdogs and so on and so on.... beaten before they travel.

[yellow_belly 226]

2 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

Try and get up and then listen to  Daniel's presser today.....self funding club,young players with no experience in EPL,how good Brentford are,underdogs and so on and so on.... beaten before they travel.

Sadly… too true.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

14 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

Sigh, ok I'll try again.  "We are struggling to compete" or putting it another way, "we are competing but it is a struggle"

Ok, have you got it now?  Or how many different ways do you want it put?  It's tough. It's a struggle, but the nature of competitive football is to strive to be better, to turn the struggle into points. Overcome adversity. I mean, we get it.

Now I suggest all those obsessed with how awful things are just get off the bandwagon for a while and try getting "up" for tomorrow's game. 

I have come to realise that this is actually a parody account... its very well done to be fair...

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 minute ago, Kenny Foggo said:

I have come to realise that this is actually a parody account... its very well done to be fair...

You've said that before, so I'll ask the question again. Parody of what? 

[yellow_belly 226]

Just now, lake district canary said:

You've said that before, so I'll ask the question again. Parody of what? 

I think that you are Nephew Tom. 
 

[Indy 3,297]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

The club's repeated use of the parachute payments to 'self-fund' is coming under scrutiny.  Failing to win is not a crime; failing to adopt a competitive approach undermines the whole ethos of football and ultimately destroys it.  It becomes pointless, in more ways than one.

Why is it dangerous?  Because it gives ammunition to those who would like to see a closed PL with no automatic promotion or relegation.  Whatever the criteria for admission to such a league, we can be pretty sure that NCFC wouldn't fit the bill.  Then where would we be - and more importantly, where would English football be?

Surely this cannot be questioned by any authority or club. Especially when the top clubs ring fence the prize money to protect themselves from becoming uncompetitive! Imagine a scenario where a rigid salary cap and fixed 30 man squad (any player over 23 and not named in the squad has to be released or transferred) it would make all 20 teams competitive! How much would that be hated by the top rich clubs! The chance that they could be relegated the same as Norwich! 
American sport has the correct ethos behind it, where all fans have the excitement of knowing the playing field is more level each yer.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

I would get out if I could, but the problem is that I love my club and so I hate to see it prostitute itself in this way.  If you just accept the way things are, you compromise your own integrity.  Once you do that you lose the one thing that distinguishes humans from animals.

Apologies, by club I meant the EPL, and as we're not prepared/able to join in the billionaires playroom, we can kiss goodbye to any chance of staying up.

[Doomcaster 10]

If we get relegated this season - I am not confident we will again bounce back 1st time, as our squad looks unbalanced & starting to look void of young jewels to keep selling to plug the financial holes NCFC appear to have every season

Sell Aarons & Cantwell - more quality players to sell, & just about plugging the ever bigger hole of financial NCFC self funding Club needs

Looking a bit bleak for the future of NCFC at the top table - unless results change on the pitch quickly

Webber & Farke - please get together in a closed in space, & sort out this second Prem season of total failure sorted out

Next 3 or 4 matches are vital we gain a lotta points ............

Edited November 5, 2021 by Doomcaster

[littleyellowbirdie 2,543]

2 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

The club's repeated use of the parachute payments to 'self-fund' is coming under scrutiny.  Failing to win is not a crime; failing to adopt a competitive approach undermines the whole ethos of football and ultimately destroys it.  It becomes pointless, in more ways than one.

Why is it dangerous?  Because it gives ammunition to those who would like to see a closed PL with no automatic promotion or relegation.  Whatever the criteria for admission to such a league, we can be pretty sure that NCFC wouldn't fit the bill.  Then where would we be - and more importantly, where would English football be?

I actually wouldn't mind seeing a closed Premier League; the FA could then make all English players in the Premier League ineligible to play for England and it can be removed entirely from the English pyramid for the betterment of English football. 

[benchwarmer 625]

5 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

I want to see a closed premier league 

Id prefer it, and I believe it would be better for us and all other teams, if the big clubs just did one and played in Europe every week.

the disparity is now so massive there’s no point in us playing one another. It’s a joke.

But what would we do without the parachute money?  Our so-called 'self-funding' model would be exposed for what it is.  Without it we are skint.

Edited November 5, 2021 by benchwarmer

[The Real Buh 3,432]

31 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

But what would we do without the parachute money?  Our so-called 'self-funding' model would be exposed for what it is.  Without it we are skint.

We are only skint because the league is the way it is

a new league, a clean slate, a different way of doing business. That’s what I want.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Sigh, ok I'll try again.  "We are struggling to compete" or putting it another way, "we are competing but it is a struggle"

Ok, have you got it now?  Or how many different ways do you want it put?  It's tough. It's a struggle, but the nature of competitive football is to strive to be better, to turn the struggle into points. Overcome adversity. I mean, we get it.

Now I suggest all those obsessed with how awful things are just get off the bandwagon for a while and try getting "up" for tomorrow's game. 

What the hell is getting up for the game?  We are discussing the situation from as positive a position as it gets. We want to win. We even expect to win. But this season's results mean we only expect those things because we follow Norwich. Its an innate thing. It isn't based on logic.

[chicken 2,624]

9 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

The club's repeated use of the parachute payments to 'self-fund' is coming under scrutiny.

From who? If you are talking about the couple of absolute morons (including Ohara) on talksport then you are basing your opening line on an absolute fallacy.

For starters we don't use the parachute payments to 'self-fund' exclusively. We use the budget we have to self fund. You remember when we had to sell Maddison, Murphy's along with Pritchard going? Some of that was to help pay for the wages of players like Naismith. We didn't have parachute payments then, and if it came to it, we'd have to do the same again.

The argument fails further when you consider that we kept the same side, for the most part, that had won the championship three seasons ago, to do so again last season. We weren't paying megabucks on wages or on transfer fees. Even with the sales of Godfrey and Lewis we still didn't spend a hell of a lot in Championship terms.

The evidence suggests, if anything, we were holding back cash to either add to the premier league transfer coffers to make more of a concerted effort to bring players in than two seasons ago, AND to mitigate failing to gain promotion and having to still revamp a squad who's more experienced pro's were starting to age. That and other stars likely pushing much harder to leave.

None of this is new by the way. Parachute payments are designed to help clubs deal with the financial imbalance between the premier league and the championship. So clubs don't go bust if left carrying some premier league wages and also to help compensate should their squad be decimated by players demanding to move on. Watford, West Brom, Fulham, Newcastle... you can go on. All have used the money like that. Sarr would not have stayed at Watford, look how many quality players stayed at Newcastle! 

9 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

 failing to adopt a competitive approach undermines the whole ethos of football and ultimately destroys it.  It becomes pointless, in more ways than one.

Nope. All topsy turvey here IMHO. Football used to be, and still should be primarily about the fans in the grounds. It is a spectator sport. However, every single established premier league team could close their stadiums to fans and still survive quite happily. They literally don't need the gate receipts to exist. They can exist alone on all of the sponsorship and endorsement deals coupled with the TV money etc. They generate so much money every year that their owners can plough money back into them in accordance to FFP without any issue.

If you think there is any sort of consistent "ethos" in football you are sadly mistaken. It's about making money and that is it really. Any sort of ethos went out the window decades ago when they sold it's soul to TV advertising. Ever since, I have questioned why it should be easier for someone in a different continent to watch a football team play than someone who can see their home ground from their bedroom window. But that is the world we live in.

Which is why this then becomes a little bemusing...

9 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

Why is it dangerous?  Because it gives ammunition to those who would like to see a closed PL with no automatic promotion or relegation.  Whatever the criteria for admission to such a league, we can be pretty sure that NCFC wouldn't fit the bill.  Then where would we be - and more importantly, where would English football be?

So we are the club with an ethos problem and not those who want a break away European super league, or who want a US style no promotion no relegation league system? Frankly, if that happens, it doesn't really matter which side of the line we are on, English football and over 100 years of history will be flushed down the pan. It will have nailed it's own coffin lid shut and should no longer be considered a "sport" IMHO. Closed leagues are there to do nothing but line the pockets of the already very wealthy and have little to do with the sport itself. And that is where the ethos problem is.

Norwich don't give the ammunition for this to happen.

[Google Bot 3,274]

3 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

a new league, a clean slate, a different way of doing business. That’s what I want.

The only benefit I could see in that is being able to get live football back into the hands of the BBC where it could be managed with the correct morals and delivered to the masses via the TV license fee.

*Stands back and waits*

[The Real Buh 3,432]

4 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

The only benefit I could see in that is being able to get live football back into the hands of the BBC where it could be managed with the correct morals and delivered to the masses via the TV license fee.

*Stands back and waits*

Uh, no

have it streamed on demand and revenue directly to clubs

its 2021, it’s not the queens coronation. The BBC is dead.

[Google Bot 3,274]

1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

its 2021, it’s not the queens coronation. The BBC is dead.

Paywalls are dead, sport belongs to the people and no better representation of the people than the BBC, best pundits and reliable delivery on content.  Let's get this back into the common mans living room, I totally agree!

Although, Saville was a little bit dodgy, i'll give you that.

[The Real Buh 3,432]

2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Paywalls are dead, sport belongs to the people and no better representation of the people than the BBC, best pundits and reliable delivery on content.  Let's get this back into the common mans living room, I totally agree!

Although, Saville was a little bit dodgy, i'll give you that.

> Best pundits 

stopped reading after that, stop trolling

[canarybubbles 1,915]

10 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

> Best pundits 

stopped reading after that, stop trolling

I think it was meant to be satirical, but not sure ... ??

[benchwarmer 625]

3 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

We are only skint because the league is the way it is

a new league, a clean slate, a different way of doing business. That’s what I want.

No, we are skint chiefly because the present owners cannot afford to run the club but refuse to sell or bring in new investment.  I agree with you wholeheartedly in principle about a clean slate, but without new investment it wouldn't solve our problems.

Edited November 5, 2021 by benchwarmer

[Yobocop 1,098]

The club have to leave within their means if we were to spend millions with nothing to back it up we would end up like bury fc 

The club did over extend more this season as they were able too and it’s still far too early to call