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king canary

Lets be clear about one thing...

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Without meaning to come over all LDC...

If Farke is sacked tomorrow or if Webber's contract runs out and he leaves, they absolutely would not leave as failures. I keep seeing this word used (especially when it comes to Webber) and it just strikes me as bizarre.

Webber joined with the club in a bit of a mess behind the scenes, facilities that were actively hurting our ability to sign new players, no real sensible transfer strategy and a squad that was both bloated and imbalanced. If he left tomorrow the financial situation is 100 times better than when he left, there is a route for academy players  into the first team, we have scouts who can spot gems (at least at Championship level) and we now have the press writing fawning articles about the cutting edge training facilities we provide our players.

Farke joined with the club on a downward trajectory and has given us two seasons of absolutely thrilling football led by a number of academy graduates. 

Yes we've struggled mightily at Premier League level but that doesn't mean the Championship seasons are meaningless at that the overall period has been a failure. I personally think Farke's time is up but if and when he leaves he won't be anything close to that. Peter Grant was a failure, Bryan Gunn was failure, Jez Moxey was a failure. Farke and Webber? Nope.

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I agree, but if this went the course of a season they would very much be tarnished, which is my concern.  Particularly Farke as he has to front every pre and post conference and sit amongst a dozen cameras on his face as we fall apart.

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

Without meaning to come over all LDC...

If Farke is sacked tomorrow or if Webber's contract runs out and he leaves, they absolutely would not leave as failures. I keep seeing this word used (especially when it comes to Webber) and it just strikes me as bizarre.

Webber joined with the club in a bit of a mess behind the scenes, facilities that were actively hurting our ability to sign new players, no real sensible transfer strategy and a squad that was both bloated and imbalanced. If he left tomorrow the financial situation is 100 times better than when he left, there is a route for academy players  into the first team, we have scouts who can spot gems (at least at Championship level) and we now have the press writing fawning articles about the cutting edge training facilities we provide our players.

Farke joined with the club on a downward trajectory and has given us two seasons of absolutely thrilling football led by a number of academy graduates. 

Yes we've struggled mightily at Premier League level but that doesn't mean the Championship seasons are meaningless at that the overall period has been a failure. I personally think Farke's time is up but if and when he leaves he won't be anything close to that. Peter Grant was a failure, Bryan Gunn was failure, Jez Moxey was a failure. Farke and Webber? Nope.

I agree 100% but maybe they have reached their limit and It's time to hand on the batton to others to push on. This season is in danger of ruining all the good work.

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15 minutes ago, king canary said:

Without meaning to come over all LDC...

If Farke is sacked tomorrow or if Webber's contract runs out and he leaves, they absolutely would not leave as failures. I keep seeing this word used (especially when it comes to Webber) and it just strikes me as bizarre.

Webber joined with the club in a bit of a mess behind the scenes, facilities that were actively hurting our ability to sign new players, no real sensible transfer strategy and a squad that was both bloated and imbalanced. If he left tomorrow the financial situation is 100 times better than when he left, there is a route for academy players  into the first team, we have scouts who can spot gems (at least at Championship level) and we now have the press writing fawning articles about the cutting edge training facilities we provide our players.

Farke joined with the club on a downward trajectory and has given us two seasons of absolutely thrilling football led by a number of academy graduates. 

Yes we've struggled mightily at Premier League level but that doesn't mean the Championship seasons are meaningless at that the overall period has been a failure. I personally think Farke's time is up but if and when he leaves he won't be anything close to that. Peter Grant was a failure, Bryan Gunn was failure, Jez Moxey was a failure. Farke and Webber? Nope.

Sure, same as McNally but he also left at the right time.

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I don’t class either as failures but I’m not handing out a gold star for this season’s efforts either.

Edited by Canary Wundaboy

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5 hours ago, king canary said:

Without meaning to come over all LDC...

If Farke is sacked tomorrow or if Webber's contract runs out and he leaves, they absolutely would not leave as failures. I keep seeing this word used (especially when it comes to Webber) and it just strikes me as bizarre.

Webber joined with the club in a bit of a mess behind the scenes, facilities that were actively hurting our ability to sign new players, no real sensible transfer strategy and a squad that was both bloated and imbalanced. If he left tomorrow the financial situation is 100 times better than when he left, there is a route for academy players  into the first team, we have scouts who can spot gems (at least at Championship level) and we now have the press writing fawning articles about the cutting edge training facilities we provide our players.

Farke joined with the club on a downward trajectory and has given us two seasons of absolutely thrilling football led by a number of academy graduates. 

Yes we've struggled mightily at Premier League level but that doesn't mean the Championship seasons are meaningless at that the overall period has been a failure. I personally think Farke's time is up but if and when he leaves he won't be anything close to that. Peter Grant was a failure, Bryan Gunn was failure, Jez Moxey was a failure. Farke and Webber? Nope.

Tom smith is the genius behind it all apparently 

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I'm sure Webber will see that very differently when he announces by the end of this month that he will be the new Director of football at Liverpool next season! 

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I agree with the fact they have taken us from a very low point both financial and football wise. My worry is after the last premiership season and complaining that we didn't spend any money I am now wishing we hadn't this time. We have signed badly this season. I am still not sure what the thinking was as we didn't replace players in the positions we needed. We signed players with potential but not ready for the premiership. Every player has lost value either because they have not been good enough or it has been impossible for them to look good enough in the team performances this season. I just hope some of these players are not mill stones around the clubs neck. What wages is Sargent on and who will ever pay us what we paid for him? It's not his fault we paid what we did it's Webber's. Why is it whenever we spend , for us big money it always goes wrong. 

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Although it’s worth noting that our “low point” was 8th in the championship with some very good players in the team and academy (several of whom have now been sold for big money).
 

Which is only 2 places outside the recently discarded “top 26” target. 

 

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Doesn't matter if they are regarded as failures or not, but the point is from a playing perspective it clearly isn't good enough.

People have short term memories in football and nothing will change that.

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8 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I agree with the fact they have taken us from a very low point both financial and football wise. My worry is after the last premiership season and complaining that we didn't spend any money I am now wishing we hadn't this time. We have signed badly this season. I am still not sure what the thinking was as we didn't replace players in the positions we needed. We signed players with potential but not ready for the premiership. Every player has lost value either because they have not been good enough or it has been impossible for them to look good enough in the team performances this season. I just hope some of these players are not mill stones around the clubs neck. What wages is Sargent on and who will ever pay us what we paid for him? It's not his fault we paid what we did it's Webber's. Why is it whenever we spend , for us big money it always goes wrong. 

Interesting thing in this is that lots of those players seem to have good qualities and I can see all of our new signings doing well in Championship. In many ways they are sort of small improvements to those who left (with Emi as exception) and possibility to reach higher level due to their age. Many of them will not hit their peak in couple of years still and I can see all of them being able to be successful in PL during some point of their career. 

Somehow this makes me wonder that even though the goal has been stated to stay in PL, would the purchases still have been made with plan of being possibly in Championship next season and then having bit younger and PL ready team if we make it up from Champs again. Other option would be focusing on getting two or three more guaranteed PL quality players with less development capacity (which would likely been bit safer bet for staying in PL), but that would have likely been bad business in longer term.

Might be just silly thoughts, but just been popping to my mind when thinking about how this team can progress compared to earlier if we take another visit to Champs and then are able to get back to PL.

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9 hours ago, Sideshow Tim said:

I'm sure Webber will see that very differently when he announces by the end of this month that he will be the new Director of football at Liverpool next season! 

In his dreams, literally the only place that’s going to happen.

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Although it’s worth noting that our “low point” was 8th in the championship with some very good players in the team and academy (several of whom have now been sold for big money).
 

Which is only 2 places outside the recently discarded “top 26” target. 

 

This is true but I think we can be pretty confident in saying the club was on a downward trajectory at that point. I have no doubt if we'd have kept things as they were we'd have finished lower than 8th the next season.

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9 hours ago, Canaries north said:

I agree with the fact they have taken us from a very low point both financial and football wise. My worry is after the last premiership season and complaining that we didn't spend any money I am now wishing we hadn't this time. We have signed badly this season. I am still not sure what the thinking was as we didn't replace players in the positions we needed. We signed players with potential but not ready for the premiership. Every player has lost value either because they have not been good enough or it has been impossible for them to look good enough in the team performances this season. I just hope some of these players are not mill stones around the clubs neck. What wages is Sargent on and who will ever pay us what we paid for him? It's not his fault we paid what we did it's Webber's. Why is it whenever we spend , for us big money it always goes wrong. 

In all honesty I'm not sure the wages are something we'd have to worry about, especially Sargents. There is a reason we targeted leagues like Germany and Greece where wages aren't close to Premier League levels. Google suggest Sargent was on £25k p/w at Werder before he got relegated. If he's on similar here (or a bit more) he'll have a relegation wage drop in his contract. Wage wise I'd imagine Rashica is on more.

Equally he's a US international with significnat top flight experience and aged 21. Sure he hasn't set the world on fire for us and I doubt we'd make a huge profit but if we desperately needed to shift him next season I don't doubt we could.

 

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2 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is true but I think we can be pretty confident in saying the club was on a downward trajectory at that point. I have no doubt if we'd have kept things as they were we'd have finished lower than 8th the next season.

Spot on KC, and good opening post. I get there’s some that want either Farke out or Webber out or both, but some of the stuff I’ve been reading on here is going a bit far to say the least. It reminds me of the ‘professional complainer in the restaurant’ syndrome. They might not have a great steak or something, but they are very easy to spot as a genuine complainer will largely point out the steak wasn’t up to much but the rest of the meal/experience was good, whereas the professional complainers are the ones that go over the top about every single item on the plate, service etc etc - they are normally making things up in order to, in their minds, make their complaint all the more valid. That is a red flag straight away. And I can see that sort of analogy on here with respect to Webber and Farke to be honest. 

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

In all honesty I'm not sure the wages are something we'd have to worry about, especially Sargents. There is a reason we targeted leagues like Germany and Greece where wages aren't close to Premier League levels. Google suggest Sargent was on £25k p/w at Werder before he got relegated. If he's on similar here (or a bit more) he'll have a relegation wage drop in his contract. Wage wise I'd imagine Rashica is on more.

Equally he's a US international with significnat top flight experience and aged 21. Sure he hasn't set the world on fire for us and I doubt we'd make a huge profit but if we desperately needed to shift him next season I don't doubt we could.

 

I would imagine Sargent is no where near on that wage. More like £12-15,000  a week. Transfermarket stated Rashica was on around £9,000 a week at Werder Bremen so he's prob the same.

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2 minutes ago, mannings bandy legs said:

I would imagine Sargent is no where near on that wage. More like £12-15,000  a week. Transfermarket stated Rashica was on around £9,000 a week at Werder Bremen so he's prob the same.

Transfermarkt is usually pretty awful on wages.

I know the Bundesliga doesn't pay much vs the Premier League but I'd be shocked if Rashica was on anything that low. A bit of googling suggests the average player salary at Werder for the 19/20 season was just over $1.5m which roughly translates to £1.15m, or around £21k p/w. Rashica and Sargent were both regular starters so would likely sit towards the higher end of that average.

 

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4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

People have short term memories in football and nothing will change that.

Ipswich fans don't! 😄

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20 hours ago, Google Bot said:

I agree, but if this went the course of a season they would very much be tarnished, which is my concern.  Particularly Farke as he has to front every pre and post conference and sit amongst a dozen cameras on his face as we fall apart.

Tarnishing at the end doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Even Chris Hughton has had some praise on these forums the last few weeks in looking for arguments to get Farke out of the door and things were already toxic against him nearly a year before he actually went: 'Boring football; no plan B'... how times change. 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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After five seasons of Webber and Farke. First was settling in, Two and Four were incredible football, In PL first season was disappointing but we still played football.  Now in season 5 we are playing some of the worst football seen at this level as evidenced by the results and performances.  It will have been noticed how badly it has gone and will go to any suitors W & F may have had.  Never mind both will be given a happy home here we are little old Norwich remember.  Prudence with Ambition replaced by Prudence with no hope.

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