We only owed Farke a shot at this league...

[canarybubbles 1,915]

8 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

It was conclusive to you though, clearly.

I find it hilarious that you've necromanced this thread as a gotcha to TvB, when it's actually a pretty mega self-own.

You dismissed Farke's EPL campaigns as not memorable in a thread this week, yet thanks to you we know you actually "found a reasonable proportion of the games entertaining". He was a "dead end" and "a failure" according to you this week, yet you were defending him against all-comers in the days leading up to his sacking.

It's hilarious that you've bought up a thread where you were making points about the mitigating factors of Farke's EPL campaigns remarkably similar to the ones I've been having to throw at you this week in response to you rubbishing Farke. And to think you bought the thread up to show the contrarian nature of another poster?!

Absolutely brilliant.

 

Yes, his logic is poor, but he's got what he was looking for. Attention.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

3 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

Yes, his logic is poor, but he's got what he was looking for. Attention.

After your freakish assertion about Smith actually somehow ruining players, you've got no business making any assertions about logic.

[Nuff Said 5,092]

11 hours ago, ricardo said:

The club professed to have a unique identity both on and off the pitch. Some of us were happy to embrace it whatever the outcome but when those in charge faltered at the first sign of difficulties they needlessly threw that all away. 

I guess some people are scared of being different and are more comfortable just being like everyone else.

Bit of a non-sequitur there Ricardo. The second paragraph is in no way justified by the first.
 

You can believe some sort of change might improve things while wanting to maintain overall consistency. And by the time Farke was sacked it was definitely not “the first sign of difficulties”, we’d had over a season of evidence that he couldn’t get us to a level close to staying up in the PL.

[ricardo 7,349]

1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

Bit of a non-sequitur there Ricardo. The second paragraph is in no way justified by the first.
 

You can believe some sort of change might improve things while wanting to maintain overall consistency. And by the time Farke was sacked it was definitely not “the first sign of difficulties”, we’d had over a season of evidence that he couldn’t get us to a level close to staying up in the PL.

You would therefore have to believe that there was some person or some action who could have kept that squad in the Premier League. I don't know anybody who now subscribes to that theory.

Sacking and paying off Farke led to sacking and paying off Smith. Millions spent and a philosophy trashed for no good cause.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

26 minutes ago, ricardo said:

You would therefore have to believe that there was some person or some action who could have kept that squad in the Premier League. I don't know anybody who now subscribes to that theory.

Sacking and paying off Farke led to sacking and paying off Smith. Millions spent and a philosophy trashed for no good cause.

Could Wagner have kept us up? Based on his success elsewhere I don't think the possibility can be dismissed.

The rapidity with which a similar style has re-emerged under Wagner suggests to me that nothing was actually trashed by Farke's dismissal, only that Smith wasn't quite the right fit for this particular squad, but that's such a specific criterium that it's not something you could ever really predict accurately one way or the other.

We got relegated as expected if Farke has been in place,  the despondency about relegation and Farke's sacking have gone out of the door with Smith, and we're still in a position where promotion is achievable with a manager fans like who has a more successful history than Farke with regard to the Premier League.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

46 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Could Wagner have kept us up? Based on his success elsewhere I don't think the possibility can be dismissed.

The rapidity with which a similar style has re-emerged under Wagner suggests to me that nothing was actually trashed by Farke's dismissal, only that Smith wasn't quite the right fit for this particular squad, but that's such a specific criterium that it's not something you could ever really predict accurately one way or the other.

We got relegated as expected if Farke has been in place,  the despondency about relegation and Farke's sacking have gone out of the door with Smith, and we're still in a position where promotion is achievable with a manager fans like who has a more successful history than Farke with regard to the Premier League.

Ive just  realised that you are in fact a Prig.  Making wild assertions with little evidence delivered in a patronising sanctimonious fashion. 

Desperate to be heard and respected, yet so far wide of the mark. 

Troll? Parody? Or just someone who argues with themselves  on the toilet.  ?

[Nuff Said 5,092]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

You would therefore have to believe that there was some person or some action who could have kept that squad in the Premier League. I don't know anybody who now subscribes to that theory.

Sacking and paying off Farke led to sacking and paying off Smith. Millions spent and a philosophy trashed for no good cause.

All we know is that Smith couldn’t keep us up. Given the improvement Wagner appears to have achieved in a few weeks, maybe he could have, but we will never know unless we hear from a Canary in a parallel universe.

With hindsight, appointing Smith was a poor decision, but at the time I can absolutely see that it made sense.

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

12 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Ive just  realised that you are in fact a Prig.  Making wild assertions with little evidence delivered in a patronising sanctimonious fashion. 

Desperate to be heard and respected, yet so far wide of the mark. 

Troll? Parody? Or just someone who argues with themselves  on the toilet.  ?

Flat Earther. I called it 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

 

8 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Ive just  realised that you are in fact a Prig.  Making wild assertions with little evidence delivered in a patronising sanctimonious fashion. 

Desperate to be heard and respected, yet so far wide of the mark. 

Troll? Parody? Or just someone who argues with themselves  on the toilet. 

I'm not the first person you've latched onto to follow around, am I? I've just twigged that your profile pic is a parody of Til, isn't it?

Edited January 22, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

7 hours ago, SwearyCanary said:

Flat Earther. I called it 

That didn't feature in my university physics course, but happy to give you some tips on orbital dynamics if you like. Good to see you fixed the emojis by the way, and you're welcome.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

I'm not the first person you've latched onto to follow around, am I? I've just twigged that your profile pic is a parody of Til, isn't it?

If the cap fits.....

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

11 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

If the cap fits.....

So what are these 'wild assertions' you're talking about then? I note you mentioned that somewhere in your attempted character analysis.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

There’s an awful lot of hindsight going on in this thread with regards to Farke’s sacking. There was a pretty strong feeling that he wasn’t going to turn it around in the EPL at the time and the club took the right action to sack him to try and change things up after a dire run of defeats. Appointing Smith at the time looked a fair move: EPL experience, Championship promotion, familiarity with the current state of the game in this country etc. I’m happy to admit that at the time I was pretty glad we’d brought in someone with that kind of resume, rather than an unknown or untested manager. But obviously for whatever reason(s) it just never worked for him here and he should have been relieved of his position before the World Cup.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

So what are these 'wild assertions' you're talking about then? I note you mentioned that somewhere in your attempted character analysis.

How about  ' the fans caused our down turn in form' ...which is pretty much what you said.  Anyway the  " greatest coach in the world" has settled it .   Pep just said if the crowd boos its a good  thing as the players feel it and react.

So there. 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

9 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

How about  ' the fans caused our down turn in form' ...which is pretty much what you said. 

I assume LYB will give the fans some credit for causing our upturn in form then.

Or does the manager get the praise when things are going well, but the fans get the blame when things are going wrong.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

49 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

There’s an awful lot of hindsight going on in this thread with regards to Farke’s sacking. There was a pretty strong feeling that he wasn’t going to turn it around in the EPL at the time and the club took the right action to sack him to try and change things up after a dire run of defeats. Appointing Smith at the time looked a fair move: EPL experience, Championship promotion, familiarity with the current state of the game in this country etc. I’m happy to admit that at the time I was pretty glad we’d brought in someone with that kind of resume, rather than an unknown or untested manager. But obviously for whatever reason(s) it just never worked for him here and he should have been relieved of his position before the World Cup.

Agreed that there was a lot of people calling for Farke to go, particularly after the Leeds defeat. 

There was not a great deal of enthusiasm for the appointment of Dean Smith though. I actually attempted to sell it as a good appointment, it was a tough sell, plenty not buying into him at all. If anything there was some relief that it wasn't Lampard and that's about it.

Edited January 22, 2023 by TeemuVanBasten

[chicken 2,605]

11 hours ago, ricardo said:

You would therefore have to believe that there was some person or some action who could have kept that squad in the Premier League. I don't know anybody who now subscribes to that theory.

Sacking and paying off Farke led to sacking and paying off Smith. Millions spent and a philosophy trashed for no good cause.

The issue is two fold there Ricardo.

I don't like to think anything is impossible, improbable perhaps. The issue is, people were calling for Farke's head. The club also has a choice, they have invested millions in players that the scouts have said are good players that would be capable of handling the pressures of premier league football.

At which point, as I said at the time, do we stick or twist. Do we give something else a go and see if better results could be had? Sadly, that has to come at the cost of Farke.

Webber said something along the lines of "becoming too comfortable" with poor performances. I think that was a shot at the squad as well as the overall mentality. Not necessarily of Farke though.

[mrD66M 99]

10 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

With hindsight, appointing Smith was a poor decision, but at the time I can absolutely see that it made sense.

On paper it did. In reality, everything was wrong from the 1st phonecall from Stew to Smith. It stank the place up.

Tell you what, on some level I respect the fans that went to watch live, home/away and booed Smith and the players without malice or nastiness - sometimes it's got to be like that to force a change, but TBH it should be like that for any coach who doesn't engage with the fans and the way we like to see our team play.

I always thought City does not ever conform to "generic" coaches, they need to have something about them, but Farke ruined us. He set our standard. From now on, anyone we recruit as a manager has to have some elements of that team play, strategy and intensity AND connect with the fans. We measure them up to the standard - if they don't fit, they go.

Wagner was destined for this. I doubted as well as many others.The doubt is still there, but going in the other way - I doubt he will not succeed with us, it's a matter of time.

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by mrD66M

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I assume LYB will give the fans some credit for causing our upturn in form then.

Or does the manager get the praise when things are going well, but the fans get the blame when things are going wrong.

Managers don't usually take a lot of credit for themselves in my experience; they usually point to the players. But they always seem to take all of the blame when things aren't working, up to and including individual errors by players.

It was really interesting listening to Michael Bailey yesterday who mentioned all the holes we had at the back. That's what Smith was trying to deal with while we had a more forgiving environment than the Premier League.

We've clearly abandoned trying to fix that issue for now, and we can afford to at this level, but once we're promoted it will have to be confronted again, but not in a more forgiving environment like the Championship.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Managers don't usually take a lot of credit for themselves in my experience; they usually point to the players. But they always seem to take all of the blame when things aren't working, up to and including individual errors by players.

It was really interesting listening to Michael Bailey yesterday who mentioned all the holes we had at the back. That's what Smith was trying to deal with while we had a more forgiving environment than the Premier League.

We've clearly abandoned trying to fix that issue for now, and we can afford to at this level, but once we're promoted it will have to be confronted again, but not in a more forgiving environment like the Championship.

Yep I'm sure DW has said " dont worry about t defending lads , just go out there and enjoy yourselves ".

More utter tripe.  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

6 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Yep I'm sure DW has said " dont worry about t defending lads , just go out there and enjoy yourselves ".

More utter tripe.  

When was the last time you actually posted a comment about anything to do with the actual football, or even anything relating to the running of the club?

[king canary 7,580]

9 hours ago, chicken said:

The issue is two fold there Ricardo.

I don't like to think anything is impossible, improbable perhaps. The issue is, people were calling for Farke's head. The club also has a choice, they have invested millions in players that the scouts have said are good players that would be capable of handling the pressures of premier league football.

At which point, as I said at the time, do we stick or twist. Do we give something else a go and see if better results could be had? Sadly, that has to come at the cost of Farke.

Webber said something along the lines of "becoming too comfortable" with poor performances. I think that was a shot at the squad as well as the overall mentality. Not necessarily of Farke though.

This is the key point in my view.

Webber and his team spent £60m on a bunch of new players, a huge amount by this clubs standards (not the rest of the league though). It would have been crazy for Webber to just shrug his shoulders and say 'well I can't expect any more' at 5 points from 11 games, including some incredibly limp defeats. You can argue that Farke should have been given more time to get a tune out of the new players, especially with Kabak and Normann arriving later in the window than ideal, but it would have been beyond strange for Webber to suddenly subscribe to the notion that the squad he'd expensively assembled was not only not good enough to stay up but wasn't even good enough to muster more than half a point per game.

[hogesar 9,618]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Managers don't usually take a lot of credit for themselves in my experience; they usually point to the players. But they always seem to take all of the blame when things aren't working, up to and including individual errors by players.

It was really interesting listening to Michael Bailey yesterday who mentioned all the holes we had at the back. That's what Smith was trying to deal with while we had a more forgiving environment than the Premier League.

We've clearly abandoned trying to fix that issue for now, and we can afford to at this level, but once we're promoted it will have to be confronted again, but not in a more forgiving environment like the Championship.

The problem is, he wasn't really close to achieving it, whilst hugely nullifying our attack.

Our xG against us in his last 7 games (feels like a good number because it at least includes a couple of our wins under him) were 1.79, 1.3, 1.6, 0.8, 2.59 0.44, 2.52. Averaging 1.58 - which is higher than Prestons 1.4 against us, and likely in line with Coventry's, pending data.

Had we actually solidified properly then whilst boring, we might have seen some progression.

 

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

Yes from Wagner's comments he's certainly not given up on trying to fix the defensive weaknesses, and at the game we were much more solid and composed in the 2nd half.  It's clear Wagner was happier winning the 2nd half 1-0 than winning the first half 3-2.

[king canary 7,580]

5 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Yes from Wagner's comments he's certainly not given up on trying to fix the defensive weaknesses, and at the game we were much more solid and composed in the 2nd half.  It's clear Wagner was happier winning the 2nd half 1-0 than winning the first half 3-2.

I largely don't think it'll be fixed without a new addition in central midfield unless Wagner can work some magic with Sorenson. 

Kenny sounds like he's doing a good job in the deeper role but it still isn't his natural game. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

The problem is, he wasn't really close to achieving it, whilst hugely nullifying our attack.

Our xG against us in his last 7 games (feels like a good number because it at least includes a couple of our wins under him) were 1.79, 1.3, 1.6, 0.8, 2.59 0.44, 2.52. Averaging 1.58 - which is higher than Prestons 1.4 against us, and likely in line with Coventry's, pending data.

Had we actually solidified properly then whilst boring, we might have seen some progression.

 

Sure, but I think that it really is a massive challenge to try and build in that sort of discipline. Hughton tried and was partially successful at the expense of our attacking flair. Farke tried it at Premier League level and came unstuck.

To do it, I think players have to unlearn a lot of their mentality and build a whole new one, which is not going to be an overnight thing, or at least I wouldn't have thought it would be. Aarons obviously wasn't happy with it, which is understandable given he loves attacking, and obviously the fans are never going to be happy seeing a team putting more emphasis on keeping shape at the back, still making mistakes while they change approach, and lose emphasis on the fun attacking stuff in the process.

Who knows, maybe Wagner will do it overnight at some stage. That would definitely be a good thing.

 

[king canary 7,580]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sure, but I think that it really is a massive challenge to try and build in that sort of discipline. Hughton tried and was partially successful at the expense of our attacking flair. Farke tried it at Premier League level and came unstuck.

To do it, I think players have to unlearn a lot of their mentality and build a whole new one, which is not going to be an overnight thing, or at least I wouldn't have thought it would be. Aarons obviously wasn't happy with it, which is understandable given he loves attacking, and obviously the fans are never going to be happy seeing a team putting more emphasis on keeping shape at the back, still making mistakes while they change approach, and lose emphasis on the fun attacking stuff in the process.

Who knows, maybe Wagner will do it overnight at some stage. That would definitely be a good thing.

 

The issue is though that we seemed to be getting worse at it rather than better.

I get needing to sort out or defensive issues and I was very behind Smith's focus on the team needing to be better off the ball. But it just seemed that, for whatever reason, his tactics and coaching were not delivering the required results and the players weren't bought in to them. 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

When was the last time you actually posted a comment about anything to do with the actual football, or even anything relating to the running of the club?

The post you commented on was about football...at our club.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,514]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

The issue is though that we seemed to be getting worse at it rather than better.

I get needing to sort out or defensive issues and I was very behind Smith's focus on the team needing to be better off the ball. But it just seemed that, for whatever reason, his tactics and coaching were not delivering the required results and the players weren't bought in to them. 

Whoever said it would be easy? It took Farke over a year to craft the beautiful Championship football that made us regulars to expect promotion. Getting the defensive discipline in there with that culture embedded strikes me as something akin to unlearning and relearning how to walk.

As the old saying goes in commerce, you have fast, good, and cheap; pick two.

In football, I think you have fun to watch, robust, top-level, and cheap; pick three. At the moment we're demanding four.

But maybe Wagner can do what literally no manager has done for us in 27 years, except maybe Lambert who promptly scarpered knowing how lucky he had been.

[king canary 7,580]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Whoever said it would be easy? It took Farke over a year to craft the beautiful Championship football that made us regulars to expect promotion. Getting the defensive discipline in there with that culture embedded strikes me as something akin to unlearning and relearning how to walk.

As the old saying goes in commerce, you have fast, good, and cheap; pick two.

In football, I think you have fun to watch, robust, top-level, and cheap; pick three. At the moment we're demanding four.

But maybe Wagner can do what literally no manager has done for us in 27 years, except maybe Lambert who promptly scarpered knowing how lucky he had been.

Nobody said easy but you've missed what I actually said- we were getting worse rather than better. 

Yes it took Farke a full season but you could see what he was trying to achieve and towards the end of his first season you saw it more and more as the players got used to it. It wasn't perfect but it was getting better. It never felt that way with Smith, never felt like he was working towards a goal and getting there slowly week on week.