We only owed Farke a shot at this league...

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

Nobody said easy but you've missed what I actually said- we were getting worse rather than better. 

Yes it took Farke a full season but you could see what he was trying to achieve and towards the end of his first season you saw it more and more as the players got used to it. It wasn't perfect but it was getting better. It never felt that way with Smith, never felt like he was working towards a goal and getting there slowly week on week. 

Goes back to my unpopular point that they might have kept up the effort if there had been a bit more actual support while the results were still good, but there you go. It's clearly not a fashionable idea for fans to actually want to make a positive difference if the going gets tough.

It's done anyway. Wagner is a great guy who knows how to manage a football club and get a crowd going. Good luck to him when we have some tougher challenges.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

It's clearly not a fashionable idea for fans to actually want to make a positive difference if the going gets tough.

Its not unfashionable, its just how people feel, sorry, not sorry, if that doesnt square with you. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Goes back to my unpopular point that they might have kept up the effort if there had been a bit more actual support while the results were still good, but there you go. It's clearly not a fashionable idea for fans to actually want to make a positive difference if the going gets tough.

Christ just when you nearly held a serious discussions for a while there.

The fans were perfectly supportive, yes they could've been better, yes they could've been louder, but to act like it had some tangible negative impact on our season as opposed to serious coaching flaws is laughable. The fans remained supportive all the way through to the final two matches of Smith's tenure at the club. Its not their fault there was nothing to ****ing support 70% of the time!

If it really was the fans then you'd surely have to question such a weak-minded bunch of players wouldn't you? And who is in charge of the team's overall mentality? What was it you said, we were top of the league and the players saw some fans sitting on their hands at Carrow Road and immediately threw down all tools and gave up for season? Righty-o!

Also you'd have to question the inconsistency of it all, when fans are and are not in attendance. Lets for one second accept that the total derailment was because of the fans under Smith; why after being sacked, with Russell in charge and the support is 10x better in the next two home games, do the results or performances not improve at all? Then with a new coach, and support still remaining as positive, suddenly the team is transformed?

What's the notable thing that changed during that period, fan support, or the head coach?

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

7 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Christ just when you nearly held a serious discussions for a while there.

The fans were perfectly supportive, yes they could've been better, yes they could've been louder, but to act like it had some tangible negative impact on our season as opposed to serious coaching flaws is laughable. The fans remained supportive all the way through to the final two matches of Smith's tenure at the club. Its not their fault there was nothing to ****ing support 70% of the time!

If it really was the fans then you'd surely have to question such a weak-minded bunch of players wouldn't you? And who is in charge of the team's overall mentality? What was it you said, we were top of the league and the players saw some fans sitting on their hands at Carrow Road and immediately threw down all tools and gave up for season? Righty-o!

Also you'd have to question the inconsistency of it all, when fans are and are not in attendance. Lets for one second accept that the total derailment was because of the fans under Smith; why after being sacked, with Russell in charge and the support is 10x better in the next two home games, do the results or performances not improve at all? Then with a new coach, and support still remaining as positive, suddenly the team is transformed?

What's the notable thing that changed during that period, fan support, or the head coach?

Birdyo has better insight than any of us. Just accept it. He may go away  eventually. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

8 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Its not unfashionable, its just how people feel, sorry, not sorry, if that doesnt square with you. 

No but that's the thing, he's actually right. Fans should try and dig the team out when they can. The problem is we already DID try that plenty of times under Smith this season (Preston, Boro, QPR to name a few). 

Where LYB goes completely wrong is his belief that our fans were so negative and apathetic that they caused a negative impact in the first place, and acting as though the fans weren't ever behind the team during various games under Smith which didn't go our way. 

Its very much a mutual thing with fans and the team. 

Play good = support good.

Play bad = support bad.

We all saw how good the support was in home games where we played well (final 15 minutes against Stoke, opening 20 minutes against QPR, Preston, Boro, etc).

Yet despite all the energetic support during these spells, often during the opening phases of games it should also be noted, we rarely managed to back it up and the performances would always very suddenly drop-off without warning. 

It is worth noting that the performances would often drop off way before the support did - but for some reason LYB didn't manage to observe this from his streams. 

The problem is that without fail under Smith we spent the vast majority of our games playing so poorly, giving the fans absolutely nothing to truly get behind in the game despite their always being a willingness to see the team and Smith succeed. Ultimately when the team spends 70+ minutes of every single game looking like a bunch of scared strangers, with no meaningful semblance of passes, no notable breaks forwards and no significant chances created, of course the level of support is going to take a hit.

The same thing happens at every single ground in the country, the world even, but for some reason it is just the NCFC in LYB's eyes who are the most ravenous, toxic, negative bunch out there. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

23 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Christ just when you nearly held a serious discussions for a while there.

The fans were perfectly supportive, yes they could've been better, yes they could've been louder, but to act like it had some tangible negative impact on our season as opposed to serious coaching flaws is laughable. The fans remained supportive all the way through to the final two matches of Smith's tenure at the club. Its not their fault there was nothing to ****ing support 70% of the time!

If it really was the fans then you'd surely have to question such a weak-minded bunch of players wouldn't you? And who is in charge of the team's overall mentality? What was it you said, we were top of the league and the players saw some fans sitting on their hands at Carrow Road and immediately threw down all tools and gave up for season? Righty-o!

Also you'd have to question the inconsistency of it all, when fans are and are not in attendance. Lets for one second accept that the total derailment was because of the fans under Smith; why after being sacked, with Russell in charge and the support is 10x better in the next two home games, do the results or performances not improve at all? Then with a new coach, and support still remaining as positive, suddenly the team is transformed?

What's the notable thing that changed during that period, fan support, or the head coach?

Really? The effect fans have on visitors at places like Millwall, Fulham, and Liverpool is well-recognised. There was no enthusiasm from supporters earlier when we were top of the league.

Players may be mostly highly talented millionaires on the pitch, but they're also very young men doing a job where they're going to want to hear the cheers of the crowd, not the jeers of the crowd as they pass it back recycling for another go, or the library-like silence because they've only won 2-1 instead of 4-2.

At the end of the day, people want what they want, and if that's fun to watch football at Championship level instead of survival football in the premier League, fine, but until it's accepted that this isn't sustainable at premier League level we're stuck.

And if Wagner does pull off a miracle and deliver all four then magnificent.

Edited January 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Really? The effect fans have on visitors at places like Millwall, Fulham, and Liverpool is well-recognised. There was no enthusiasm from supporters earlier when we were top of the league.

Players may be mostly highly talented millionaires on the pitch, but they're also very young men doing a job where they're going to want to hear the cheers of the crowd, not the jeers of the crowd as they pass it back recycling for another go, or the library-like silence because they've only won 2-1 instead of 4-2.

At the end of the day, people want what they want, and if that's fun to watch football at Championship level instead of premier League, but until it's accepted that this isn't sustainable at premier League level we're stuck.

And if Wagner does pull off a miracle and deliver all four then magnificent.

You failed to acknowledge that Super Pep, " the greatest coach in the world" said yesterday that if fans are not happy, let them boo....as it gives the team a wake up call. I understand why you dodnt acknowledge  that .....because unlike your years of experience  pitchside , Pep knows sweet FA.

Righto Priggy boy

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

14 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

No but that's the thing, he's actually right. Fans should try and dig the team out when they can. The problem is we already DID try that plenty of times under Smith this season (Preston, Boro, QPR to name a few). 

Where LYB goes completely wrong is his belief that our fans were so negative and apathetic that they caused a negative impact in the first place, and acting as though the fans weren't ever behind the team during various games under Smith which didn't go our way. 

Its very much a mutual thing with fans and the team. 

Play good = support good.

Play bad = support bad.

We all saw how good the support was in home games where we played well (final 15 minutes against Stoke, opening 20 minutes against QPR, Preston, Boro, etc).

Yet despite all the energetic support during these spells, often during the opening phases of games it should also be noted, we rarely managed to back it up and the performances would always very suddenly drop-off without warning. 

It is worth noting that the performances would often drop off way before the support did - but for some reason LYB didn't manage to observe this from his streams. 

The problem is that without fail under Smith we spent the vast majority of our games playing so poorly, giving the fans absolutely nothing to truly get behind in the game despite their always being a willingness to see the team and Smith succeed. Ultimately when the team spends 70+ minutes of every single game looking like a bunch of scared strangers, with no meaningful semblance of passes, no notable breaks forwards and no significant chances created, of course the level of support is going to take a hit.

The same thing happens at every single ground in the country, the world even, but for some reason it is just the NCFC in LYB's eyes who are the most ravenous, toxic, negative bunch out there. 

There were actually articles written on the Pinkun commenting on the disinterested atmosphere while we were top of the league and it wasn't me who wrote those articles, I assure you.

I honestly don't want to go on about it because Wagner clearly is bloody marvelous and Smith did make mistakes, especially not getting stuck in in the community, but somewhere along the line we're going to run into this same defensive problem on promotion, and trying to rebuild the squad to do that at Championship level before hitting the Premier League again was the right idea in the long run.

[king canary 7,559]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Really? The effect fans have on visitors at places like Millwall, Fulham, and Liverpool is well-recognised. There was no enthusiasm from supporters earlier when we were top of the league.

Players may be mostly highly talented millionaires on the pitch, but they're also very young men doing a job where they're going to want to hear the cheers of the crowd, not the jeers of the crowd as they pass it back recycling for another go, or the library-like silence because they've only won 2-1 instead of 4-2.

At the end of the day, people want what they want, and if that's fun to watch football at Championship level instead of survival football in the premier League, fine, but until it's accepted that this isn't sustainable at premier League level we're stuck.

And if Wagner does pull off a miracle and deliver all four then magnificent.

The inclusion of Fulham in that list is a headscratcher.

The team with the neutral zone in their stadium and one of the quietest home fan bases known to man.

I'd also add that there are several teams much more successful than us who have fanbases that are far less positive and much easier to turn when things go badly than us. Wolves and Newcastle being a couple of good examples.

The idea that if only fans had been more supportive and positive then we'd have ended up being better at defending doesn't follow for me but if that is the hill you want to die on then have at it I suppose.

[Indy 3,283]

And here we go again! Just when you thought that Smith debate was over, Birdy chirps again, with his loony views……it’s all the fault of the negative fans, Farke and the players, not that Smith was an utterly useless Norwich Manager, no system, no man management and not connection….just give it a rest and stop feeding the troll!

Can we please move on from ****ing Smith & Farke.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

10 minutes ago, king canary said:

The inclusion of Fulham in that list is a headscratcher.

The team with the neutral zone in their stadium and one of the quietest home fan bases known to man.

I'd also add that there are several teams much more successful than us who have fanbases that are far less positive and much easier to turn when things go badly than us. Wolves and Newcastle being a couple of good examples.

The idea that if only fans had been more supportive and positive then we'd have ended up being better at defending doesn't follow for me but if that is the hill you want to die on then have at it I suppose.

Okay fine. Bad example with Fulham, but the point holds with the other two and many more I can't think of off the top of my head.

Being more supportive would help them dig in and hopefully keep getting the results needed to buy the time to keep working at it and improving. Farke has a whole season of mid-table, and it had it's ups and downs, but that was easier to pallet because it was focusing on being swash buckling; any manager trying to work on the defensive, be it Smith, Hughton, or Farke in the premier League doesn't have that luxury, and nor will Wagner.

Edited January 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[king canary 7,559]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Okay fine. Bad example with Fulham, but the point holds with the other two and many more I can't think of off the top of my head.

Being more supportive would help them dig in and hopefully keep getting the results needed to buy the time to keep working at it and improving. Farke has a whole season of mid-table, and it had it's ups and downs, but that was easier to pallet because it was focusing on being swash buckling; any manager trying to work on the defensive, be it Smith, Hughton, or Farke in the premier League doesn't have that luxury.

OK but then why are Liverpool currently massively underperforming? And why do Millwall hover between midtable Championship and League One? And why did generally really well supported teams like Leeds spend 15 years out of the top flight?

I'd argue because while a supportive crowd can maybe be the difference in turning the odd draw into a win or the odd loss into a draw, there are much bigger factors that drive teams performances. I don't think a more supportive crowd was the magic ingredient missing to make what Dean Smith tried to do here a success.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

7 minutes ago, king canary said:

OK but then why are Liverpool currently massively underperforming? And why do Millwall hover between midtable Championship and League One? And why did generally really well supported teams like Leeds spend 15 years out of the top flight?

I'd argue because while a supportive crowd can maybe be the difference in turning the odd draw into a win or the odd loss into a draw, there are much bigger factors that drive teams performances. I don't think a more supportive crowd was the magic ingredient missing to make what Dean Smith tried to do here a success.

Okay then. You're right. Stadium atmospheres make no difference at all to team performances.

[hogesar 9,608]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Okay then. You're right. Stadium atmospheres make no difference at all to team performances.

Not what King said.

He acknowledged they'll make a difference, but it's generally proven to be a very minor one in the overall picture.

And to be fair, the away fans for Norwich this season were fantastic despite some pretty boring offerings. It didn't improve performance levels though.

[king canary 7,559]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Okay then. You're right. Stadium atmospheres make no difference at all to team performances.

Absolutely pathetic response which shows up why nobody should take you or this argument with any sincerity.

I clearly said atmosphere can affect performance, just not to the extent you're claiming you are. You're acting like a child because the manager you backed to the hilt failed and you can't just hold your hands up and say you were wrong like plenty of others (including myself) have done.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Okay then. You're right. Stadium atmospheres make no difference at all to team performances.

Getting close to a tantrum now.....

Wah wah theyre all making fun of my ridiculous assertions!!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

Just now, hogesar said:

Not what King said.

He acknowledged they'll make a difference, but it's generally proven to be a very minor one in the overall picture.

And to be fair, the away fans for Norwich this season were fantastic despite some pretty boring offerings. It didn't improve performance levels though.

We've had lots of games in the bad run after the long run of good results where the margin has been fine. Atmosphere could have been the difference. Can't say it would have been, but it could have been, and we won't know for sure because the atmosphere was sufficiently indifferent that the Pink Un was running articles talking about it while we were top of the league.

I mean I do get why this all sounds terribly defensive of Smith personally, but it's not; it's about what's going to happen the next time we get to a point where a bit of patience and forebearance is necessary with our new manager. Maybe it has all worked out for the best anyway, because I'm certainly enjoying Wagner's tenure so far and it was a lot more fun than anything previously this season, for sure.

I still think there's a lot to be said for patience and giving the benefit of the doubt though than persistently undermining people with a difficult task. It certainly paid off with Farke, even though a lot predicted otherwise in his first season.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

4 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said:

Getting close to a tantrum now.....

Wah wah theyre all making fun of my ridiculous assertions!!

Your pearls of wisdom are still conspicuous in their absence, corkyo.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Your pearls of wisdom are still conspicuous in their absence, corkyo.

Oh i don't know, ive seen your kind of pompous lecturing end up in a meltdown before....and thats without shots being fired in anger. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

37 minutes ago, king canary said:

Absolutely pathetic response which shows up why nobody should take you or this argument with any sincerity.

I clearly said atmosphere can affect performance, just not to the extent you're claiming you are. You're acting like a child because the manager you backed to the hilt failed and you can't just hold your hands up and say you were wrong like plenty of others (including myself) have done.

I've answered in a more balanced way to Hogesar's reproach on that subject. You'll have to forgive me for being a bit tired of being contradicted and having tiny nitpicking holes like the point about Fulham in spite of the fact you accept there's some validitity in my point, albeit questions to extent of the difference can be asked.

As a further point, few of those games in the winless run were lost by huge margins.There's every cause to think a bit of resolve from the fans could have tipped the balance if they'd been so inclined. But then they weren't, so there you go.

Edited January 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[GodlyOtsemobor 2,224]

Meltdown incoming..... 3......2.......1......

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I've answered in a more balanced way to Hogesar's reproach on that subject. You'll have to forgive me for being a bit tired of being contradicted on every tiny point in spite of the fact you accept there's some validitity in my point, albeit questions to extent of the difference can be asked.

Nit picker doesnt like getting nits picked....who'd  have thunk it. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

41 minutes ago, king canary said:

Absolutely pathetic response which shows up why nobody should take you or this argument with any sincerity.

I clearly said atmosphere can affect performance, just not to the extent you're claiming you are. You're acting like a child because the manager you backed to the hilt failed and you can't just hold your hands up and say you were wrong like plenty of others (including myself) have done.

One more thing: check my history and I've always backed every manager to the hilt since I joined this forum, so really do back off on the thrift store psychoanalysis.

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Really? The effect fans have on visitors at places like Millwall, Fulham, and Liverpool is well-recognised. There was no enthusiasm from supporters earlier when we were top of the league.

Ah yes those Millwall fans, well known for their reasonableness and patience. 

Yes other fans are probably louder than NCFC, but if you give them the same shower of ****e the NCFC team were giving Carrow Road just wait and see how long that stays positive. Majority of clubs in this country have a toxic element to their support far worse than us!

We are a family club with a history of patience, backing managers, often for way too long. Do you really think that kind of culture would be possible with such a poor support and no patience?

IMO Carrow Road has some of the most supportive home atmospheres going, the trick is to actually play with a level of desire and intensity that the crowd can match - but that is no different to any other side. Unfortunately there was no sustained hunger or intensity from the players for Smith, and the fans ultimately reciprocated that in matching the (lack of) energy levels from the team. That is not the fans fault. The tail does not wag the dog!

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

7 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

Ah yes those Millwall fans, well known for their reasonableness and patience. 

Yes other fans are probably louder than NCFC, but if you give them the same shower of ****e the NCFC team were giving Carrow Road just wait and see how long that stays positive. Majority of clubs in this country have a toxic element to their support far worse than us!

We are a family club with a history of patience, backing managers, often for way too long. Do you really think that kind of culture would be possible with such a poor support and no patience?

IMO Carrow Road has some of the most supportive home atmospheres going, the trick is to actually play with a level of desire and intensity that the crowd can match - but that is no different to any other side. Unfortunately there was no sustained hunger or intensity from the players for Smith, and the fans ultimately reciprocated that in matching the (lack of) energy levels from the team. That is not the fans fault. The tail does not wag the dog!

I'm sorry, but this 'shower of ****e' stuff is just emotive rubbish. We had good spells in there along the way. To draw a parallel to Farke's first season, that wasn't always beauty to behold by a longshot. We had spells throughout, maybe 20 minutes, maybe a whole half here and there, where things were looking pretty decent. But it was clear that there was a deliberate change of emphasis from the ultra swashbuckling stuff we were used to under Farke.

Let's move on. Here we have Wagner now and we've enjoyed a couple of epic enjoyable games. Let's say we get promoted this season and we hit all of the problems Farke has in the Premier League because there hadn't been enough attention paid to try and restructure to something more defensively solid. What then?

Edited January 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

18 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's move on

As in .." please stop reminding me of all the stupid stuff  i post " 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's move on. Here we have Wagner now and we've enjoyed a couple of epic enjoyable games. Let's say we get promoted this season and we hit all of the problems Farke has in the Premier League because there hadn't been enough attention paid to try and restructure to something more defensively solid. What then?

It'd still have been the right call. Trying to change to a more structured / organised way of playing in the championship in preparation for the premier league only makes sense if you are actually promoted at the end of it. We still don't really know how good or bad we are defensively with Wagner compared to Smith either! I'd wager we see out the season with a defensive record no worse than under Smith. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

2 minutes ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

It'd still have been the right call. Trying to change to a more structured / organised way of playing in the championship in preparation for the premier league only makes sense if you are actually promoted at the end of it. We still don't really know how good or bad we are defensively with Wagner compared to Smith either! I'd wager we see out the season with a defensive record no worse than under Smith. 

We'll see, but the first half last game there were gaps all over the place, and the second half when we got better shape there was only one more goal, so the basic problem, regardless of who's manager, is still there and attacking prowess will have to suffer in any attempts to tackle it if every previous attampt by anyone is an indicator to go by.

[Indy 3,283]

1 minute ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

It'd still have been the right call. Trying to change to a more structured / organised way of playing in the championship in preparation for the premier league only makes sense if you are actually promoted at the end of it. We still don't really know how good or bad we are defensively with Wagner compared to Smith either! I'd wager we see out the season with a defensive record no worse than under Smith. 

Interesting as defensive frailties is always our focus when we’ve gone up, I don’t think we did when we got promoted with Lambert, we built on our strength and stayed up by not trying to change because we’re a division higher.

We certainly need to strengthen key areas with better players if funds allow should we go up, but I’m fully behind making sure we don’t lose the key weapons like we have previously on promotion. Let’s be honest spending millions is no guarantee of survival so a good squad well organised and disciplined with max fitness levels might be what we need.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,500]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

Interesting as defensive frailties is always our focus when we’ve gone up, I don’t think we did when we got promoted with Lambert, we built on our strength and stayed up by not trying to change because we’re a division higher.

We certainly need to strengthen key areas with better players if funds allow should we go up, but I’m fully behind making sure we don’t lose the key weapons like we have previously on promotion. Let’s be honest spending millions is no guarantee of survival so a good squad well organised and disciplined with max fitness levels might be what we need.

That sounds to me an awful lot like how we approached it Farke's first Premier League season, and we all know the outcome. Lambert's survival season was 10 years ago; the chasm between Championship and Premier League has grown enormously since then.

Still, you never know I guess.