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Petriix

Can we finally agree that 3 in midfield is flawed?

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We've played 3 in midfield every single game this season. We've scored twice; one of those a penalty. We've conceded 300 (or there abouts). 

The problem is clearly in the midfield. There is no cover in the wide areas and no one patrolling between the lines to win the ball. Those three central midfielders can't possibly fulfil the multiple jobs they are being asked to do.

We need wide midfielders who are responsible for supporting the fullbacks in defending the flanks. We need two, solid defensive midfielders who stick diligently to their task - dropping into the defence when required and supporting in the wide defensive areas when the wide players are caught out of position.

Then we could have one primarily attacking midfielder in the number 10 role. They would still need to drop into the midfield line when out of possession but would clearly have the responsibility for linking the play and getting forward to support Pukki. 

With clearly defined jobs, the players would have a far easier time actually sticking to the plan. The ill-disciplined shambles we're witnessing is the consequence of having too much ground to cover. The extra running should be the responsibility of the pacy wide players.

Far too often we're seeing the midfielders getting caught out by pushing too high and simply being bypassed by a couple of quick passes.

People are blaming Gibson for the first goal, but the edge of the box is exactly where the CDMs should be mopping up the loose balls. The second goal today would never happen with a flat back four.

McLean, PLM and Normann have had enough chances now. Time to abandon this broken system and play a more solid pairing who will give us a backbone.

Edited by Petriix

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1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Don't think it really matters the formation when Farke insists on us trying to play like we're Barca 2010

Thanks for your spectacularly insightful analysis. Have you considered that maybe the flawed midfield system might be central to Farke's failings in this regard?

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6 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Thanks for your spectacularly insightful analysis. Have you considered that maybe the flawed midfield system might be central to Farke's failings in this regard?

Nope, just a flawed manager who's tactical ability at this level is horrendous. 

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We don’t play 3 in midfield

 it’s 2 …McLean has gone missing in every game. Yet again was rubbish today. Total waste of space. We should bring one of the creative players or at least Sorenson.

 One of Farke biggest mist each week, it’s like playing with 10 men

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I've said it for ages, 4-2-3-1 is the way to go. It's what we got promoted on and played predominantly in the last 3 seasons. Farke seems hell bent on trying something out because his peers do. Sod that, play to our strengths. Double pivot of Normann and Gilmour, any 3 from 6 behind Pukki

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Yeah why is he playing it "safe" every week. We have the squad that's suited for the 4231 and we know how to play it!

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1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Trouble is that we dont have a good enough 2 centre halves to just play a 2 at the back...nor do we have a good enough 2 mids to play 2 there either to then release a no.10

Then we definitely don't have 3 that are good enough! 

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PLM is Championship at best and Normann isn't disciplined enough to just sit and then you have McLean who is a mistake waiting to happen. We tried to do the midfield on the cheap and are being found out.

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Most people, after the previous 2 results, were praising the 3 at the back system and how it had made us more solid.

Today happens and we should bin it and go back to the old system.

Don't think it's quite as simple as the formation we play.

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6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Farke is putting an extra body into both departments to try to overcome our deficencies with numbers

At the expense of attacking. Therefore we end up with nowhere to go. Leaving us with constant pressure on our inept defense 

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33 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Farke is putting an extra body into both departments to try to overcome our deficencies with numbers

He should drop Sargent and play Dowell or Gilmour in the current formation. But preferably, back to 4-2-3-1. I want to see exciting, attacking players. As the cliché goes,  the best form of defence, is attack. And that reads true with the current players at our disposal. We have better attacking players, than we do defensive ones!

Edited by Creedence Clearwater Couto

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I agree. There was a massive hole through the middle again today and nobody closing down at the top of the box. Put f**king Sorensen in next to Normann and try it. Can’t be any worse. 

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I don’t have a problem with three midfielders per se, more just how we are setting up at the moment. I think the key issues are the use of our fullbacks/wingbacks. I would be happy to switch to a genuine four at the back with fullbacks that didn’t play so high and leave so much space in behind. Then I would be happy with three in midfield as long as we got some pace and danger in the front three.

Desperate times, so I would get what I think are our best players on the pitch. Don’t know what is going on with Cantwell so I’ll go with (4-1-4-1)

Krul, Aarons, Giannoulis, Hanley, kabak, Norman, Gilmour, PLM, Rashica, Tzolis, Pukki.

they may well get found out but atleast we could give it a go! 
 

 

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As usual too many disparate threads on here.

I do believe the problem is however Farke - not the players themselves.

Farke's successful (Championship) teams have very often picked themselves through injury or slow starts needing complete overhauls from limited choices - and then Farke has been very slow to change. I'm not sure previous teams have been chosen  'by design' or by necessity. A good coach but perhaps not a team manager.

This I think is the root of todays problem. Farke isn't at all sure what his 'best' team is or how to play.

Frankly I don't think there is much wrong with the CBs or defense in general. Max lacks a final ball and Giannoulis isn't perhaps the best defensively. Is Williams any better ?

Midfield. Normann has looked excellent but McLean (a notable Farke favourite) always seems to me to be lacking, PLM has generally looked good.

Pukki I'm afraid I think is overrated (too many -Oh he would of put that away last year type comments) and Sargent a work in progress / outlet.

So yes-  I would like to see Sorenson given a role/chance alongside Normann for defensive solidarity and perhaps some of the new boys let off the leash for Pukki.

Edited by Yellow Fever
Don't shoot the messenger.

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27 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I agree. There was a massive hole through the middle again today and nobody closing down at the top of the box. Put f**king Sorensen in next to Normann and try it. Can’t be any worse. 

Exactly

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2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Norman has looked excellent

He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times.

So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous.

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I think it’s difficult but maybe different games mean different approaches. The defensive formation today wasn’t really the worst option against a fantastic team and so I am actually surprised it collapsed so badly. 

The main drawbacks though, are that it brings a lot of pressure onto you, there’s barely an outball to be had. There’s also little to no chance of picking up even lucky things like penalties or scoring by deflections, OG’s etc if you are nowhere near the opposition box. 

I think Farke needs to try and find a more balanced approach and get a bit of forward play into the team. 

 

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2 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times.

So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous.

I can agree on today but I was really talking generally over our 'season' so far. Today does make you wonder if Farke has indeed lost the confidence of the players plus the Cantwell issue. 

Edited by Yellow Fever

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I have a feeling we will see a completely different side next week and I mean personnel.You'll see Gilmore,Tzolis and Rashica all starting.Possibly Cantwell or Dowell as well. It aint working. Back to what we know. Pukki looks half the player he was and looks totally lacking in belief.This system has sucked the life out of him.

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To be fair, given the overall performance today we could have played all 5 in midfield and it wouldn't have made much difference

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Farke doesn't like change and was desperately trying to get a nailed down back 5 and progress from there. That's still work in progress and I don't think he will change it until it's stabilised again. Unfortunately Gibson is only suspended for one game so big Andy will just step in. Possibly also bin PLM and bring back the tried and tested and won't let him down Rupp, leaving Normann to wander around. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gilmour involved, as I suspect Williams getting gametime today was more contractual in a match that was already lost.

Tzolis and Sorenson can't be anywhere near match fit and won't be slung in for a must not lose game against Leeds.

 

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9 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Farke doesn't like change and was desperately trying to get a nailed down back 5 and progress from there. That's still work in progress and I don't think he will change it until it's stabilised again. Unfortunately Gibson is only suspended for one game so big Andy will just step in. Possibly also bin PLM and bring back the tried and tested and won't let him down Rupp, leaving Normann to wander around. 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Gilmour involved, as I suspect Williams getting gametime today was more contractual in a match that was already lost.

Tzolis and Sorenson can't be anywhere near match fit and won't be slung in for a must not lose game against Leeds.

 

Both were on the subs bench today.

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29 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

I think it’s difficult but maybe different games mean different approaches. The defensive formation today wasn’t really the worst option against a fantastic team and so I am actually surprised it collapsed so badly. 

The main drawbacks though, are that it brings a lot of pressure onto you, there’s barely an outball to be had. There’s also little to no chance of picking up even lucky things like penalties or scoring by deflections, OG’s etc if you are nowhere near the opposition box. 

I think Farke needs to try and find a more balanced approach and get a bit of forward play into the team. 

 

It wasn't a defensive formation though. The wingbacks were ludicrously high up and the midfield were all over the place. A 4-2-3-1 played properly would have been far more solid.

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1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

Both were on the subs bench today.

Sorenson has only played one match this season, Bournemouth in the League Cup. He wouldn't even have been on the bench today had Gilmour been available. He can't possibly have the base fitness for a Premier League football match.

Tzolis hasn't been seen since the penalty incident against Liverpool.

They might be phased in but not starting anytime soon. I'm surprised Sorenson didn't get some minutes today in what was quickly a dead rubber. 

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3 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

PLM is Championship at best and Normann isn't disciplined enough to just sit and then you have McLean who is a mistake waiting to happen. We tried to do the midfield on the cheap and are being found out.

 

2 hours ago, sgncfc said:

He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times.

So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous.

The discipline and positioning points here are the main issue and can be applied everywhere. At least three or four of their goals today, when they were attacking there were humongous gaps between our lines. I can remember saying the exact same thing last time we were in the division as well.

It really doesn’t matter which players play in the defence or midfield, or how many of them there are in either. You can play high press, you can sit deep. You can mix it up. You can have three at the back, four at the back, five at the back, 2 defensive midfielders, 3 midfielders, 5 midfielders. Makes no difference if opponents can easily break the lines and find shed loads of space. And just having more people in midfield or more centre backs doesn’t mean it’s more difficult for opponents to find space if you’re badly drilled and leave the space regardless.

That’s not just down to the players - there are managers out there (Big Sam, even Hughton) who specialise in getting that tight compact unit, even out of sides who had been leaking goals weeks before. Even successful ‘attacking’ sides will usually know how to squeeze the space when out of possession, tighten the gaps and smother the opposition, albeit with more mistakes than a side who sets up to defend.

I’m not suggesting we should get one of those guys in, but there do need to be question asked about the defensive solidity and the training/drilling from the coaches. 

If we can’t drill well enough, then let’s stop pretending to try and just go for it. We’d get stuffed by quite a few I’m sure, but we’d probably pick up a few more points than now even if it was still nowhere near enough to stay up. 

Edited by Aggy

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