Petriix 2,835 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) We've played 3 in midfield every single game this season. We've scored twice; one of those a penalty. We've conceded 300 (or there abouts). The problem is clearly in the midfield. There is no cover in the wide areas and no one patrolling between the lines to win the ball. Those three central midfielders can't possibly fulfil the multiple jobs they are being asked to do. We need wide midfielders who are responsible for supporting the fullbacks in defending the flanks. We need two, solid defensive midfielders who stick diligently to their task - dropping into the defence when required and supporting in the wide defensive areas when the wide players are caught out of position. Then we could have one primarily attacking midfielder in the number 10 role. They would still need to drop into the midfield line when out of possession but would clearly have the responsibility for linking the play and getting forward to support Pukki. With clearly defined jobs, the players would have a far easier time actually sticking to the plan. The ill-disciplined shambles we're witnessing is the consequence of having too much ground to cover. The extra running should be the responsibility of the pacy wide players. Far too often we're seeing the midfielders getting caught out by pushing too high and simply being bypassed by a couple of quick passes. People are blaming Gibson for the first goal, but the edge of the box is exactly where the CDMs should be mopping up the loose balls. The second goal today would never happen with a flat back four. McLean, PLM and Normann have had enough chances now. Time to abandon this broken system and play a more solid pairing who will give us a backbone. Edited October 23, 2021 by Petriix Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Hairy 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 Don't think it really matters the formation when Farke insists on us trying to play like we're Barca 2010 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Petriix 2,835 Posted October 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said: Don't think it really matters the formation when Farke insists on us trying to play like we're Barca 2010 Thanks for your spectacularly insightful analysis. Have you considered that maybe the flawed midfield system might be central to Farke's failings in this regard? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,272 Posted October 23, 2021 For me, yes. 4-2-3-1 and play our two most exciting attacking players, Rashica and Tzolis!! Have a go. Perhaps with Gibson's suspension we may see it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ken Hairy 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, Petriix said: Thanks for your spectacularly insightful analysis. Have you considered that maybe the flawed midfield system might be central to Farke's failings in this regard? Nope, just a flawed manager who's tactical ability at this level is horrendous. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rock bus 851 Posted October 23, 2021 We don’t play 3 in midfield it’s 2 …McLean has gone missing in every game. Yet again was rubbish today. Total waste of space. We should bring one of the creative players or at least Sorenson. One of Farke biggest mist each week, it’s like playing with 10 men Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Don’t be Krul 399 Posted October 23, 2021 I've said it for ages, 4-2-3-1 is the way to go. It's what we got promoted on and played predominantly in the last 3 seasons. Farke seems hell bent on trying something out because his peers do. Sod that, play to our strengths. Double pivot of Normann and Gilmour, any 3 from 6 behind Pukki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749 Posted October 23, 2021 Trouble is that we dont have a good enough 2 centre halves to just play a 2 at the back...nor do we have a good enough 2 mids to play 2 there either to then release a no.10 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFN FC 1,123 Posted October 23, 2021 Yeah why is he playing it "safe" every week. We have the squad that's suited for the 4231 and we know how to play it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFN FC 1,123 Posted October 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: Trouble is that we dont have a good enough 2 centre halves to just play a 2 at the back...nor do we have a good enough 2 mids to play 2 there either to then release a no.10 Then we definitely don't have 3 that are good enough! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt. Pants 4,228 Posted October 23, 2021 PLM is Championship at best and Normann isn't disciplined enough to just sit and then you have McLean who is a mistake waiting to happen. We tried to do the midfield on the cheap and are being found out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmy Bone - Superstar 2 Posted October 23, 2021 Most people, after the previous 2 results, were praising the 3 at the back system and how it had made us more solid. Today happens and we should bin it and go back to the old system. Don't think it's quite as simple as the formation we play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,749 Posted October 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, NFN FC said: Then we definitely don't have 3 that are good enough! Farke is putting an extra body into both departments to try to overcome our deficencies with numbers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NFN FC 1,123 Posted October 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: Farke is putting an extra body into both departments to try to overcome our deficencies with numbers At the expense of attacking. Therefore we end up with nowhere to go. Leaving us with constant pressure on our inept defense Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creedence Clearwater Couto 1,272 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 33 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said: Farke is putting an extra body into both departments to try to overcome our deficencies with numbers He should drop Sargent and play Dowell or Gilmour in the current formation. But preferably, back to 4-2-3-1. I want to see exciting, attacking players. As the cliché goes, the best form of defence, is attack. And that reads true with the current players at our disposal. We have better attacking players, than we do defensive ones! Edited October 23, 2021 by Creedence Clearwater Couto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim Smith 2,317 Posted October 23, 2021 I agree. There was a massive hole through the middle again today and nobody closing down at the top of the box. Put f**king Sorensen in next to Normann and try it. Can’t be any worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big O 225 Posted October 23, 2021 I don’t have a problem with three midfielders per se, more just how we are setting up at the moment. I think the key issues are the use of our fullbacks/wingbacks. I would be happy to switch to a genuine four at the back with fullbacks that didn’t play so high and leave so much space in behind. Then I would be happy with three in midfield as long as we got some pace and danger in the front three. Desperate times, so I would get what I think are our best players on the pitch. Don’t know what is going on with Cantwell so I’ll go with (4-1-4-1) Krul, Aarons, Giannoulis, Hanley, kabak, Norman, Gilmour, PLM, Rashica, Tzolis, Pukki. they may well get found out but atleast we could give it a go! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) As usual too many disparate threads on here. I do believe the problem is however Farke - not the players themselves. Farke's successful (Championship) teams have very often picked themselves through injury or slow starts needing complete overhauls from limited choices - and then Farke has been very slow to change. I'm not sure previous teams have been chosen 'by design' or by necessity. A good coach but perhaps not a team manager. This I think is the root of todays problem. Farke isn't at all sure what his 'best' team is or how to play. Frankly I don't think there is much wrong with the CBs or defense in general. Max lacks a final ball and Giannoulis isn't perhaps the best defensively. Is Williams any better ? Midfield. Normann has looked excellent but McLean (a notable Farke favourite) always seems to me to be lacking, PLM has generally looked good. Pukki I'm afraid I think is overrated (too many -Oh he would of put that away last year type comments) and Sargent a work in progress / outlet. So yes- I would like to see Sorenson given a role/chance alongside Normann for defensive solidarity and perhaps some of the new boys let off the leash for Pukki. Edited October 23, 2021 by Yellow Fever Don't shoot the messenger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 27 minutes ago, Jim Smith said: I agree. There was a massive hole through the middle again today and nobody closing down at the top of the box. Put f**king Sorensen in next to Normann and try it. Can’t be any worse. Exactly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sgncfc 1,227 Posted October 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said: Norman has looked excellent He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times. So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jambomo 215 Posted October 23, 2021 I think it’s difficult but maybe different games mean different approaches. The defensive formation today wasn’t really the worst option against a fantastic team and so I am actually surprised it collapsed so badly. The main drawbacks though, are that it brings a lot of pressure onto you, there’s barely an outball to be had. There’s also little to no chance of picking up even lucky things like penalties or scoring by deflections, OG’s etc if you are nowhere near the opposition box. I think Farke needs to try and find a more balanced approach and get a bit of forward play into the team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, sgncfc said: He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times. So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous. I can agree on today but I was really talking generally over our 'season' so far. Today does make you wonder if Farke has indeed lost the confidence of the players plus the Cantwell issue. Edited October 23, 2021 by Yellow Fever Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mannings bandy legs 385 Posted October 23, 2021 I have a feeling we will see a completely different side next week and I mean personnel.You'll see Gilmore,Tzolis and Rashica all starting.Possibly Cantwell or Dowell as well. It aint working. Back to what we know. Pukki looks half the player he was and looks totally lacking in belief.This system has sucked the life out of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AJ 1,218 Posted October 23, 2021 To be fair, given the overall performance today we could have played all 5 in midfield and it wouldn't have made much difference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt. Pants 4,228 Posted October 23, 2021 Farke doesn't like change and was desperately trying to get a nailed down back 5 and progress from there. That's still work in progress and I don't think he will change it until it's stabilised again. Unfortunately Gibson is only suspended for one game so big Andy will just step in. Possibly also bin PLM and bring back the tried and tested and won't let him down Rupp, leaving Normann to wander around. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gilmour involved, as I suspect Williams getting gametime today was more contractual in a match that was already lost. Tzolis and Sorenson can't be anywhere near match fit and won't be slung in for a must not lose game against Leeds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yellow Fever 3,772 Posted October 23, 2021 9 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said: Farke doesn't like change and was desperately trying to get a nailed down back 5 and progress from there. That's still work in progress and I don't think he will change it until it's stabilised again. Unfortunately Gibson is only suspended for one game so big Andy will just step in. Possibly also bin PLM and bring back the tried and tested and won't let him down Rupp, leaving Normann to wander around. I wouldn't be surprised to see Gilmour involved, as I suspect Williams getting gametime today was more contractual in a match that was already lost. Tzolis and Sorenson can't be anywhere near match fit and won't be slung in for a must not lose game against Leeds. Both were on the subs bench today. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Petriix 2,835 Posted October 23, 2021 29 minutes ago, Jambomo said: I think it’s difficult but maybe different games mean different approaches. The defensive formation today wasn’t really the worst option against a fantastic team and so I am actually surprised it collapsed so badly. The main drawbacks though, are that it brings a lot of pressure onto you, there’s barely an outball to be had. There’s also little to no chance of picking up even lucky things like penalties or scoring by deflections, OG’s etc if you are nowhere near the opposition box. I think Farke needs to try and find a more balanced approach and get a bit of forward play into the team. It wasn't a defensive formation though. The wingbacks were ludicrously high up and the midfield were all over the place. A 4-2-3-1 played properly would have been far more solid. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt. Pants 4,228 Posted October 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said: Both were on the subs bench today. Sorenson has only played one match this season, Bournemouth in the League Cup. He wouldn't even have been on the bench today had Gilmour been available. He can't possibly have the base fitness for a Premier League football match. Tzolis hasn't been seen since the penalty incident against Liverpool. They might be phased in but not starting anytime soon. I'm surprised Sorenson didn't get some minutes today in what was quickly a dead rubber. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aggy 755 Posted October 23, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Capt. Pants said: PLM is Championship at best and Normann isn't disciplined enough to just sit and then you have McLean who is a mistake waiting to happen. We tried to do the midfield on the cheap and are being found out. 2 hours ago, sgncfc said: He was awful today; absolutely awful. No discipline in positioning; gave the ball away countless times. So many were though - apart from Hanley, and maybe Krul, every player on that pitch was horrendous. The discipline and positioning points here are the main issue and can be applied everywhere. At least three or four of their goals today, when they were attacking there were humongous gaps between our lines. I can remember saying the exact same thing last time we were in the division as well. It really doesn’t matter which players play in the defence or midfield, or how many of them there are in either. You can play high press, you can sit deep. You can mix it up. You can have three at the back, four at the back, five at the back, 2 defensive midfielders, 3 midfielders, 5 midfielders. Makes no difference if opponents can easily break the lines and find shed loads of space. And just having more people in midfield or more centre backs doesn’t mean it’s more difficult for opponents to find space if you’re badly drilled and leave the space regardless. That’s not just down to the players - there are managers out there (Big Sam, even Hughton) who specialise in getting that tight compact unit, even out of sides who had been leaking goals weeks before. Even successful ‘attacking’ sides will usually know how to squeeze the space when out of possession, tighten the gaps and smother the opposition, albeit with more mistakes than a side who sets up to defend. I’m not suggesting we should get one of those guys in, but there do need to be question asked about the defensive solidity and the training/drilling from the coaches. If we can’t drill well enough, then let’s stop pretending to try and just go for it. We’d get stuffed by quite a few I’m sure, but we’d probably pick up a few more points than now even if it was still nowhere near enough to stay up. Edited October 23, 2021 by Aggy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites