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KeiranShikari

Question for the moaners

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2 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

96-97

Did Geoffrey Watling get her in to do it?

Surely he could have done it himself or at least asked Barry Lockwood.

Edited by nutty nigel

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7 minutes ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Agree. The PR department at Carrow Road has been monumentally successful in convincing a whole generation of fans that selling players and replacing with cheaper alternatives is

1. Something new and is now call self sustaining or self funding and not something done by either previous owners or many other clubs

2. not prudence but morally superior in a world of grubby money and unfair advantage 

3. a long term plan as the academy will continue to churn out players and the cheaper replacements will continue to work out better than the originals, just look at Emi!

4. And finally, and this perhaps the best, that self funding is a choice, the correct choice put in place because there is no other option, but still a wonderful plan we have chosen to follow, although there’s no other choice

Chase made the club run on player trading profits, he failed to replace players at critical times leaving the squad thin, he brought us close to bankruptcy. This is absolutely no different to what the current ownership has done. 

The current ownership has had the considerable advantage of broadcasting cash and parachute payments, thus providing a considerable buffer against bankruptcy. When they didn't have these in 2009 they were in precisely the same position as Chase.

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7 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Did Geoffrey Watling get her in to do it?

Surely he could have done it himself or at least asked Barry Lockwood.

Gordon Bennett

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48 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Absolutely - you can check out all the ECN/Archant archives if you want.

Or you could do it to provide us with the proof.

 

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22 minutes ago, king canary said:

Yes but that isn't the discussion is it? The discussion is about why we're improving on paper but getting worse results on the pitch and struggling to compete in the Premier League. Sheffield United aren't doing well this season but they have done something we've struggled to do in recent years- sustain a Premier League stay for more than one season.

It is not a great comparison though, is it. It is a good example of the level of this debate. If we had done what they did and were now 17th in the second tier, would you be happy? No, of course not but somehow your argument is that this position is something to aspire to????

My answer to your question is we faced considerable headwinds coming into this season. The loss of Skipp & Buendia (which was inevitable), key players arriving after the season started, Covid interrupting preparations and a difficult start.

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1 minute ago, Big Vince said:

Gordon Bennett

So Delia had no involvement at all?

Edited by nutty nigel

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2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So Delia had no involvement at all?

There was a little meeting involving Martin Armstrong, Barry Lockwood, Delia, Wynnie and Gordon Bennett and it was decided to switch off as there was no money.

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3 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

There was a little meeting involving Martin Armstrong, Barry Lockwood, Delia, Wynnie and Gordon Bennett and it was decided to switch off as there was no money.

Just those few?

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Just those few?

Wikipedia will know more, maybe!

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42 minutes ago, BigFish said:

It is not a great comparison though, is it. It is a good example of the level of this debate. If we had done what they did and were now 17th in the second tier, would you be happy? No, of course not but somehow your argument is that this position is something to aspire to????

My answer to your question is we faced considerable headwinds coming into this season. The loss of Skipp & Buendia (which was inevitable), key players arriving after the season started, Covid interrupting preparations and a difficult start.

I think your right about the level of debate but not in the way your suggesting.

It seems impossible on here at times to suggest their might be something to be learned from how other clubs have gone about things without a bunch of morons posting 'why aren't we Sheffield United hur hur hur I'm very clever and funny.'

At no point have I suggested I aspire for us to be Sheffield United or that I want us to be them. You've just decided that is what I think based on whatever reason. I'm not making a direct comparison, I'm curious as to why they've managed to achieve what we didn't. It is asinine to suggest there is nothing to be learned from their successes because of the subsequent failures. I'm aware they got relegated, posting 'they're 17th in the Championship' isn't some fantastically clever gotcha argument. 

The OP suggested (rightly in my opinion) that the squad has progressed in terms of quality year on year under Farke. Yet the results when we get to the top division have frankly been woeful. 5 wins in 46 games means clearly whatever we're doing when we get to the top level isn't working and we're looking likely to have our 3rd one season stay in the top flight in a row. So I make no apologies for wondering why a team with lesser players (IMO) could manage to stay up so comfortably even if they screwed the pooch a year later. 

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

At no point have I suggested I aspire for us to be Sheffield United or that I want us to be them.

 So I make no apologies for wondering why a team with lesser players (IMO) could manage to stay up so comfortably even if they screwed the pooch a year later. 

You brought up Sheffield Utd, no one else, and trying to make conclusions based on the evidence of a single season isn't the most logical approach. Neither is aimless wondering without suggesting any conclusions.

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4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

You brought up Sheffield Utd, no one else, and trying to make conclusions based on the evidence of a single season isn't the most logical approach. Neither is aimless wondering without suggesting any conclusions.

I know I did. I never suggested I didn't. You keep suggesting I'm saying or arguing things I'm not, also not 'the most logical approach.' Bringing them up doesn't = 'aspiring to be them' though does it?

My general conclusion is that we have a coach who is out of his depth at this level. Wilder was able to harness momentum and tactically innovate to keep them up at least for a season before getting found out. Farke seems to have been found out before the season even starts. Others will disagree so my 'aimless wondering' is whether people see a different reason. I can infer from your post that you seem to believe our struggles so far this season lie mainly with factors external to the club. It is an interesting view but not one I share.

Edited by king canary
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We had the same premature nonsense about Brentford in January.

Who knows where the two clubs will be next May?

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13 minutes ago, king canary said:

 I can infer from your post that you seem to believe our struggles so far this season lie mainly with factors external to the club. It is an interesting view but not one I share.

I listed a number of factors that have been a drag on our performance. These factors have largely been addressed but whether it is enough for a successful outcome for the season is not so clear but the team is better placed defensively to make a better fist of it. No real evidence of Farke being "found out" has materialised.

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4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

I listed a number of factors that have been a drag on our performance. These factors have largely been addressed but whether it is enough for a successful outcome for the season is not so clear but the team is better placed defensively to make a better fist of it. No real evidence of Farke being "found out" has materialised.

Personally I think his record over 46 games at Premier League level is at least some evidence- it isn't a small sample size and I'm not honestly sure if there is another coach with a lower win % that hasn't been sacked.

The fact teams have found it so easy to play against us in both seasons to me suggests his tactics and style of play don't suit. In order to pick up our only two points of this season Farke has had to largely abandon most of his principles and essentially play 7 defensive minded players. That, to me, suggests a coach that other managers have managed to work out pretty easily. 

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Personally I think his record over 46 games at Premier League level is at least some evidence- it isn't a small sample size and I'm not honestly sure if there is another coach with a lower win % that hasn't been sacked.

The fact teams have found it so easy to play against us in both seasons to me suggests his tactics and style of play don't suit. In order to pick up our only two points of this season Farke has had to largely abandon most of his principles and essentially play 7 defensive minded players. That, to me, suggests a coach that other managers have managed to work out pretty easily. 

Yes. An 11% win record over nearly 50 games would have got you the sack almost anywhere else. Not sure he’s been “found out” though as much as “not yet cracked it.” We will have to hope he does and quickly. 

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In the first pre season friendly Farke went 3 at the back with wing backs. Circumstances then forced a change. Circumstances now favour 3 at  the back with wing backs.

How is that abandoning most of his principles?

Edited by nutty nigel

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4 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes. An 11% win record over nearly 50 games would have got you the sack almost anywhere else. Not sure he’s been “found out” though as much as “not yet cracked it.” We will have to hope he does and quickly. 

Found out may be the wrong term- I guess my view is Farke teams have never presented too much of a challenge for savvy top level managers to set up against. Press us high, force the defence to panic and either make an error or kick it long, counter swiftly and play with power through the middle of the park where we lack the physicality to compete. I know injuries played a decent role two years ago but the ease with which teams like Palace, Burnley and Watford beat us has always stuck with me and he hasn't shown the ability to successfully adapt to win games.

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8 minutes ago, king canary said:

Found out may be the wrong term- I guess my view is Farke teams have never presented too much of a challenge for savvy top level managers to set up against. Press us high, force the defence to panic and either make an error or kick it long, counter swiftly and play with power through the middle of the park where we lack the physicality to compete. I know injuries played a decent role two years ago but the ease with which teams like Palace, Burnley and Watford beat us has always stuck with me and he hasn't shown the ability to successfully adapt to win games.

Who can he turn to for clever advice? Edmund Riemer didn't even play top level football in Germany, only regional football - sort of Gorleston, Lowestoft level.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

In order to pick up our only two points of this season Farke has had to largely abandon most of his principles and essentially play 7 defensive minded players. That, to me, suggests a coach that other managers have managed to work out pretty easily. 

Farke was constantly criticised on here for not having a Plan B, and when he adopts one (relatively successfully it should be noted) you have a problem with it. If you watched rather than just go by results no principles have been abandoned. Aarons and Gino are hardly the most defensive of players, we continue to play football and we are playing a second striker. Or would rather keep losing? Don't answer that, it is rhetorical, I think you would. Just to prove you were right all along.

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1 hour ago, Big Vince said:

Who can he turn to for clever advice? Edmund Riemer didn't even play top level football in Germany, only regional football - sort of Gorleston, Lowestoft level.

He has a UEFA A license, what coaching qualification do you have?

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6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Farke was constantly criticised on here for not having a Plan B, and when he adopts one (relatively successfully it should be noted) you have a problem with it. If you watched rather than just go by results no principles have been abandoned. Aarons and Gino are hardly the most defensive of players, we continue to play football and we are playing a second striker. Or would rather keep losing? Don't answer that, it is rhetorical, I think you would. Just to prove you were right all along.

This is a shame- you always seemed like a reasonable poster capable of a bit of debate with opposing views but you appear to be full of hostility today. It seems rather than consider Farke might not be the messiah you'd rather lash out at others who don't agree.

I don't want us to lose. I want us to win. I enjoy football much more when we win oddly. I do watch as much as I can and I see a team that has gone against certain principles- keeping possession, playing progressively through teams etc etc. 

Yes he's adopted a plan B- I think the word 'relatively' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your assessment of it. Yes we're not haemorrhaging goals anymore but we've not scored and still have yet to win a game this season. Scrappy 0-0 draws are preferrable to what we saw v Watford but the performances don't inspire my confidence that draws will turn into wins. Clearly it does with you and fair enough. 

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21 minutes ago, BigFish said:

He has a UEFA A license, what coaching qualification do you have?

Anybody can get a qualification in anything, but there is no substitute for experience at the level you are working at - especially the EPL where the backroom teams are as good as the head coaches.

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14 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is a shame- you always seemed like a reasonable poster capable of a bit of debate with opposing views but you appear to be full of hostility today. It seems rather than consider Farke might not be the messiah you'd rather lash out at others who don't agree.

I don't want us to lose. I want us to win. I enjoy football much more when we win oddly. I do watch as much as I can and I see a team that has gone against certain principles- keeping possession, playing progressively through teams etc etc. 

Yes he's adopted a plan B- I think the word 'relatively' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your assessment of it. Yes we're not haemorrhaging goals anymore but we've not scored and still have yet to win a game this season. Scrappy 0-0 draws are preferrable to what we saw v Watford but the performances don't inspire my confidence that draws will turn into wins. Clearly it does with you and fair enough. 

Fair point @king canary, no hostility was intended so I apologise for my intemperate, hurried posting.

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4 hours ago, BigFish said:

He has a UEFA A license, what coaching qualification do you have?

To be precise Farke holds the  Fußball-Lehrer ( which was made equivalent to the UEFA Pro License in 2008. ) 

You could argue it’s harder to get . 

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16 hours ago, king canary said:

Yes he's adopted a plan B- I think the word 'relatively' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your assessment of it. Yes we're not haemorrhaging goals anymore but we've not scored and still have yet to win a game this season. Scrappy 0-0 draws are preferrable to what we saw v Watford but the performances don't inspire my confidence that draws will turn into wins. Clearly it does with you and fair enough. 

I am ever the optimist @king canary, I see very little difference between a third CB and playing with a defensive pivot in terms of philosophy,  just a welcome pragmatism to work with the players we have rather than attempt to shoehorn players into positions for which they don't have the attributes. I see the possibility of a way forward where the team is difficult to beat and makes teams work for goals. Scrappy 0-0 draws is the foundation for survival where being difficult to beat is more effective than attempting to storm your way to points. The team is stronger and more competitive than last time in a league that is, let's face it, brutally difficult to get a grip in. Whether this is enough is another matter, we will get a better answer at Chelsea tomorrow.

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8 hours ago, BigFish said:

I am ever the optimist @king canary, I see very little difference between a third CB and playing with a defensive pivot in terms of philosophy,  just a welcome pragmatism to work with the players we have rather than attempt to shoehorn players into positions for which they don't have the attributes. I see the possibility of a way forward where the team is difficult to beat and makes teams work for goals. Scrappy 0-0 draws is the foundation for survival where being difficult to beat is more effective than attempting to storm your way to points. The team is stronger and more competitive than last time in a league that is, let's face it, brutally difficult to get a grip in. Whether this is enough is another matter, we will get a better answer at Chelsea tomorrow.

I'd love to believe your right and I am envious of those who naturally lean optimistic on all things NCFC. 

My feeling is we're in a bit of a short blanket situation with Farke- he either goes attacking and leaves us totally exposed at the back, or goes defensive and leaves us feeding off scraps upfront. He can't find that elusive balance and this level doesn't give you much a chance to experiment to find it.

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On 19/10/2021 at 16:10, KeiranShikari said:

Are you not seeing progression here?

P3tLqBK.png

17/18

Obviously a Farkenstein's monster of a squad with players from 2 significantly different regimes. The football is a mixed bag but for the most part it doesn't really click and we draw loads of games. We finish 14th and then go and sell our 2 best players, obviously only going 1 way next year, right.

 

18/19

Everything clicks. We make smart signings, our youngsters are world beaters, we're scoring last minute winners every week and everyhting is amazing. In reality this squad was just a continuation of last year's work. There wasn't any real expectation that it would be in the top 6 let alone winning the league.

 

19/20

Concious decision is made to not spend on the field but to secure the finances, tie players down long term, pay off the new training ground and hope that momentum carries us through (momentum worked pretty well for us under Lambert). Instead of that happening everything goes wrong, injuries and then just as things are looking like they could improve a global pandemic.

 

20/21

Unlike 18/19 this season a squad is put together with intent on finishing in the top 2. What did we learn last season? We need to be more physical. A majority of our signings this summer are bigger, faster or stronger than those that are phased out or leave and we play a more defensively secure system. Obviously we then walk the league.

21/22

Only time will tell.

Obviously the big talking point at the moment is Emi Buendia. In my opinion Buendia's sale has allowed us to make more dramatic improvements through the squad than we would have been able to if we had kept him. Would Buendia and smaller improvements to the squad have us in a better place now? Maybe as there would be less need for the team to adapt. I'm not sure he'd have us beating a lot of the teams we've played thus far mind - see 19/20.

 

It's obviously not smooth sailing all of the time but it looks to me as if we're trending upwards. For the most part each unit of the squad is improving year on year. Facilities are constantly improving (at the cost of signing us a few world beaters I'm sure) and the youth pipeline is looking impressive.

Until a billionaire comes knocking I think this probably is our best shot at being massive.

 

 

 

I see plenty of progression, apart from Attacking Midfield area. We have time to turn this around. At least we aren't pointless anymore. And in 24hrs time we might not be winless either 

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