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KeiranShikari

Question for the moaners

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I can honestly say that the squad this season doesn't appear to be any better than that of last season: some players are better, but we are missing the two most important players from 20/21 and have not really replaced them.

Whatever you believe about the quality of the players, the way in which they are being utilised (or not) and the cohesion on the pitch has been severely lacking. I'd love for it to all come together in the next few weeks. For now, all we can say is that we've had an awful start and struggled to score goals.

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32 minutes ago, king canary said:

It might be relevant to your point but it isn't relevant to the point you were replying to.

I'm not asking 'why aren't we Newcastle' or similar. I'm asking why do we keep improving on paper while getting worse on the field. What Newcastle, Burnley or Leeds are doing/spending is largely not relevant to the question. 

This squad vs the squad Lambert had, or the one Neil had is, again on paper, unarguably better. Nobody is trading Gibson/Kabak/Hanley for Ward/Whitbred/Barnett for instance. Yet that team comfortably finished mid table and Neil at least was competitive for a large chunk of the season. Yet under Farke, heralded by many as the best manager we've ever had playing the best football we've ever seen, we consistently cannot compete at this level. So is it that Farke is missing something that other managers had? Or is it just the gap has grown so much between the top of the Championship that competing is that much harder? In which case why can Brentford or Sheffield United do it, even in the short term, when we can't?

 

Once Brentford get spanked, lose a couple on the trot and the confidence drains we will see if they have enough. Personally I think it’s a combination of all the things you mention. Farkes style works against lesser opposition but not against teams who can press high and punish. We watch our players for 12 months play the likes of Rotherham and Wycombe and think they are great but the step up is huge, remember, two of the defenders mentioned by you were deemed not good enough by Newcastle and Burnley. Clearly that doesn’t mean they cannot be and another manager can get a better tune but it seems how good they are depends on if it’s an odd or even year

Edited by Son Ova Gunn

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2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Eight games into a season where we've had to rebuild after selling our best player for a small fortune, where that's been badly hit by Covid relative to other teams, and where we had the opening four fixtures from hell strikes me as far too small a sample size with far too many other mitigating circumstances to draw conclusions.

See what I mean about excuses.

Covid has affected all Clubs and we no worse than than most, we spent the Emi money, or some of it, on building a stronger squad and our first 4 fixtures were against other Clubs who are, surprisingly, in the same League as us.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, king canary said:

It might be relevant to your point but it isn't relevant to the point you were replying to.

I'm not asking 'why aren't we Newcastle' or similar. I'm asking why do we keep improving on paper while getting worse on the field. What Newcastle, Burnley or Leeds are doing/spending is largely not relevant to the question. 

This squad vs the squad Lambert had, or the one Neil had is, again on paper, unarguably better. Nobody is trading Gibson/Kabak/Hanley for Ward/Whitbred/Barnett for instance. Yet that team comfortably finished mid table and Neil at least was competitive for a large chunk of the season. Yet under Farke, heralded by many as the best manager we've ever had playing the best football we've ever seen, we consistently cannot compete at this level. So is it that Farke is missing something that other managers had? Or is it just the gap has grown so much between the top of the Championship that competing is that much harder? In which case why can Brentford or Sheffield United do it, even in the short term, when we can't?

 

I think comparing the Lambert era to today's era is pointless, you yourself had said in the case for new ownership that finances have changed even from then, making the sort of signings we made back then incredibly expensive.

That Sheffield United can do it for a season then fall of a cliff is hardly evidence. That Brentford have had a good 8 games is hardly evidence. There is the 'no fear' factor of coming up for the first time (relatively speaking) that clearly makes a difference - that was clear when we first came up under Farke. What Brentford dont have and United didn't have that first season was a pretty significant injury crisis early on. 

In fact, United did have a bit of an injury crisis like our first season, during their second season. And they promptly fell apart. So I don't see a big difference.

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Just now, Making Plans said:

See what I mean about excuses.

Covid has affected all Clubs and we no worse than than most, we spent the Emi money, or some of it, on building a stronger squad and our first 4 fixtures were against other Clubs who are, surprisingly, in the same League as us.

 

 

How many Premier League clubs has to cancel two or three pre-season friendlies because of it, with most of the squad self-isolating?

I know the answer....do you?

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We also bought a player with poor goal stats that can’t score an open goal under no pressure. Perhaps the price tag doesn’t maketh the man.

 

(Just because we haven’t heard of the players before we bought them doesn’t mean they will be Pukki or Emi. No one looks any better than our much talked about flops Eg Van Wolfswinkel, Naismith… That is just a truth)

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26 minutes ago, hogesar said:

How many Premier League clubs has to cancel two or three pre-season friendlies because of it, with most of the squad self-isolating?

I know the answer....do you?

Pre-season was in July, we are now at the end of October.

We were unlikely to win the first 4 games so they made up for the games pre-season lost.

After those 4 games we basically started with a clean sheet, in more ways than one.

And since then?

 

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2 minutes ago, Making Plans said:

Pre-season was in July, we are now at the end of October.

We were unlikely to win the first 4 games so they made up for the games pre-season lost.

After those 4 games we basically started with a clean sheet, in more ways than one.

And since then?

 

But that's not the point you made. You said our covid situation was no worse than most, that is demonstrably false. Coming up with another point hoping we'll forget about the previous misinformation is a bit daft.

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1 hour ago, Making Plans said:

See what I mean about excuses.

Covid has affected all Clubs and we no worse than than most, we spent the Emi money, or some of it, on building a stronger squad and our first 4 fixtures were against other Clubs who are, surprisingly, in the same League as us.

 

 

Sure, any other teams miss two preseason friendlies at the back end of preseason with a large proportion of the squad self-isolating?

As for the same league, three of them were invited to the nascent European Super League and the fourth were champions not too long ago. (Even then, we were two marginal cases off snatching points from two of those games).

 

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The quality of the PL was lower during the Lambert era, fun though it was. Financial power is so much more important. Quality of player acquisition is critical. The club’s business model simply doesn’t work in today’s PL. To compete we desperately need new investment. However, the supporter base seems entirely content to fail continually. The ambition, such that it is, of the majority seems limited to being a big fish in the chump pond. That can change quickly of course - look what happened to Sunderland and Leeds. The latter team of course has now financial muscle to compete in the PL again.

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4 hours ago, king canary said:

So if we agree that progression in the quality of the squad is happening then why are we rock bottom and currently wondering if we're going to be troubling the record low points total we set last year?

Is it that we're progressing but other teams are progressing at a greater rate? So we may be progressing vs what we were but in 'real terms' we're actually falling further behind?

Or is it that the coaching team aren't getting enough from what they have?

This season (with a degree of mitigation due to the pre-season/covid disruption) I think the coaching staff are not getting enough from what they have. It pains me to point the finger at Farke (because fundamentally I still believe our ownership holds us back) but most of our issues have been tactical or coaching related this season. I do think that (perhaps aside from one other CM) he has the players at his disposal to be doing a lot better, certainly he's got good, experienced players who should be able tro defend adequatekly without us having to play 9 defensive players and abandon all attacking creativity/threat. 

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8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

This season (with a degree of mitigation due to the pre-season/covid disruption) I think the coaching staff are not getting enough from what they have. It pains me to point the finger at Farke (because fundamentally I still believe our ownership holds us back) but most of our issues have been tactical or coaching related this season. I do think that (perhaps aside from one other CM) he has the players at his disposal to be doing a lot better, certainly he's got good, experienced players who should be able tro defend adequatekly without us having to play 9 defensive players and abandon all attacking creativity/threat. 

Against Burnley I agree, but not against Brighton.

Does anyone have the stats from our Premier League season under Farke last time, with the likes of Buendia etc, what our average expected goals per game were? We were over 1 against Brighton with 3 really decent chances and I don't think we generally created more than that in our attacking setup 2 seasons ago.

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4 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Against Burnley I agree, but not against Brighton.

Does anyone have the stats from our Premier League season under Farke last time, with the likes of Buendia etc, what our average expected goals per game were? We were over 1 against Brighton with 3 really decent chances and I don't think we generally created more than that in our attacking setup 2 seasons ago.

I'm aware we had some chances but they were almost all from defensive errors forced by pressing or in the case of the open goal from a the keeper making a howler. I'm not belittling the fact we were able to force those errors but Brighton are a side who will give you a chance to do that with their playing out from the back. We will not get 3 or 4 chances like that every week just through pressing and feeding off the scraps. We did not really have one proper sustained period of pressure or attacking possession in that game or really "create" any chances ourselves through progressive moves other than perhaps the chance Rashica set up for Pukki when he took too long.

Don't get me wrong, i'm pleased to see us pressing and winning the ball back higher up the pitch but we cannot rely on that to create all our chances.

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7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Against Burnley I agree, but not against Brighton.

Does anyone have the stats from our Premier League season under Farke last time, with the likes of Buendia etc, what our average expected goals per game were? We were over 1 against Brighton with 3 really decent chances and I don't think we generally created more than that in our attacking setup 2 seasons ago.

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2019

Here- our XG for the season was just under 1xg pg.

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25 minutes ago, king canary said:

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2019

Here- our XG for the season was just under 1xg pg.

Cheers, will bookmark that link! Interesting.

25 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I'm aware we had some chances but they were almost all from defensive errors forced by pressing or in the case of the open goal from a the keeper making a howler. I'm not belittling the fact we were able to force those errors but Brighton are a side who will give you a chance to do that with their playing out from the back. We will not get 3 or 4 chances like that every week just through pressing and feeding off the scraps. We did not really have one proper sustained period of pressure or attacking possession in that game or really "create" any chances ourselves through progressive moves other than perhaps the chance Rashica set up for Pukki when he took too long.

Don't get me wrong, i'm pleased to see us pressing and winning the ball back higher up the pitch but we cannot rely on that to create all our chances.

I get what you're saying but the same applies to Brighton who have a better squad and a highly rated manager at this level.

I also think the fact that we were able to create chances in that shape without any 'flair' midfielders should be seen as positive, especially when in the coming weeks I expect those flair players to start getting more minutes, even if its from the bench to begin with.

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We are a badly managed premier league club who consistently make the wrong calls when making big decisions 

that won’t change until the leadership and direction of the club changes 

Delia out stinking rich Arab owner in 

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22 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Of course there has been progress, off field especially and I don’t think there are many moaners saying over the 5 seasons there has been no progress is there?. I would say, is that squad in the last column significantly better, if at all, to the one previous because that’s what was promised and that is what we deserve after giving a pass on the previous relegation debacle. Slimmer squad of better players, it’s either not happened, it has happened and Farke can’t make it work or it has happened and needs more time to show. I hope it’s time but the moaner in me thinks it’s the first, mainly due to starting the transfer season taking 5 steps backwards.

Delia has had 25 years to get it right, but failed.

Still not coming anywhere near Chase's achievements on the pitch.

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4 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Delia has had 25 years to get it right, but failed.

Still not coming anywhere near Chase's achievements on the pitch.

Chase managed to get 3 PL season's before he left us hurtling towards the third tier.

 

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11 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Chase managed to get 3 PL season's before he left us hurtling towards the third tier.

 

Chase left in 96, we were in League one in 2009/10. that's a 14 year hurtle!  

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20 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Chase managed to get 3 PL season's before he left us hurtling towards the third tier.

 

Perhaps you would be good enough to remind us who the club owner was when we DID get relegated to the 'third tier' in 2009?

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5 hours ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure we killed our momentum 2 years ago. Despite injury problems we only lost 3-1 to Liverpool, beat Newcastle 3-1, and lost 3-2 to Chelsea. We then lost 2-0 to West Ham, but beat Man City 3-2. I'm not sure we killed momentum, we were just quite clearly not good enough, alongside a hideous injury situation in what were already our weakest positions. 

Newcastle fans wouldn't agree because they believe they should be top 6. But they've had repeated Premier League seasons. This season they were able to spent nearly £30 million on Joe Willock, which is above our capabilities. The season before they signed Callum Wilson for £20 million, Ryan Fraser and obviously Jamal Lewis.

The season before that they spent £40 million on Joelinton, £18 million on Saint-Maximin. In those three seasons the only real significant outgoing was Perez to Leicester. That they've only amassed a point more than us despite all the above kind of makes it incredibly applicable to the point i'm making.

Sorry - incorrect. We lost that game 4-1 and were 4-0 down at half time! Scousers then declared and held us at arms length until the late consolation goal.

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23 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Chase managed to get 3 PL season's before he left us hurtling towards the third tier.

 

Own goal time? 

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4 hours ago, hogesar said:

I think comparing the Lambert era to today's era is pointless, you yourself had said in the case for new ownership that finances have changed even from then, making the sort of signings we made back then incredibly expensive.

That Sheffield United can do it for a season then fall of a cliff is hardly evidence. That Brentford have had a good 8 games is hardly evidence. There is the 'no fear' factor of coming up for the first time (relatively speaking) that clearly makes a difference - that was clear when we first came up under Farke. What Brentford dont have and United didn't have that first season was a pretty significant injury crisis early on. 

In fact, United did have a bit of an injury crisis like our first season, during their second season. And they promptly fell apart. So I don't see a big difference.

I agree you can't really compare the eras but it is still interesting to look at the root causes.

I'm not claiming Brentford or Sheffield United as evidence for anything. I'm genuinely unsure of my own opinion on this so the question I originally posed is genuine, not anything loaded. 

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22 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Chase managed to get 3 PL season's before he left us hurtling towards the third tier.

 

Football in this country did not start with the advent of the EPL. Chase had 9 consecutive seasons in the top division which you very well know. And despite the manner of his departure, the club never came anywhere near going down another league - unlike Delia.

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9 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Perhaps you would be good enough to remind us who the club owner was when we DID get relegated to the 'third tier' in 2009?

Delia and Wynnie.

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