Question for the moaners

[KeiranShikari 1,403]

Are you not seeing progression here?

17/18

Obviously a Farkenstein's monster of a squad with players from 2 significantly different regimes. The football is a mixed bag but for the most part it doesn't really click and we draw loads of games. We finish 14th and then go and sell our 2 best players, obviously only going 1 way next year, right.

 

18/19

Everything clicks. We make smart signings, our youngsters are world beaters, we're scoring last minute winners every week and everyhting is amazing. In reality this squad was just a continuation of last year's work. There wasn't any real expectation that it would be in the top 6 let alone winning the league.

 

19/20

Concious decision is made to not spend on the field but to secure the finances, tie players down long term, pay off the new training ground and hope that momentum carries us through (momentum worked pretty well for us under Lambert). Instead of that happening everything goes wrong, injuries and then just as things are looking like they could improve a global pandemic.

 

20/21

Unlike 18/19 this season a squad is put together with intent on finishing in the top 2. What did we learn last season? We need to be more physical. A majority of our signings this summer are bigger, faster or stronger than those that are phased out or leave and we play a more defensively secure system. Obviously we then walk the league.

21/22

Only time will tell.

Obviously the big talking point at the moment is Emi Buendia. In my opinion Buendia's sale has allowed us to make more dramatic improvements through the squad than we would have been able to if we had kept him. Would Buendia and smaller improvements to the squad have us in a better place now? Maybe as there would be less need for the team to adapt. I'm not sure he'd have us beating a lot of the teams we've played thus far mind - see 19/20.

 

It's obviously not smooth sailing all of the time but it looks to me as if we're trending upwards. For the most part each unit of the squad is improving year on year. Facilities are constantly improving (at the cost of signing us a few world beaters I'm sure) and the youth pipeline is looking impressive.

Until a billionaire comes knocking I think this probably is our best shot at being massive.

 

 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,910]

Let's put it this way. When Farke took over just over four years ago, our scapegoats were Wildschut and James Husband. Now it's a player with close to 200 matches in the Bundesliga and some European experience in Lukas Rupp, or a proven Scotland international midfielder in Kenny McLean. At the same time we've brought some excellent youngsters through (Maddison, Godfrey, Lewis being sold, Cantwell, Aarons very much worth a pretty penny, Omobamidele and Idah looking like possible breakthrough players). On top of that, we've radically overhauled the training facilities and cleared up a ton of old debt. And we've done all that whilst having a mother-funster of a pandemic affecting things.

Definitely trending upwards, but it does depend on three things:

1. A consistent stream of talented youngsters coming through
2. Enough of them become the likes of Godfrey, Maddison etc. to sell when their value appears high, and
3. When some older, more experienced heads come in, they perform at the necessary higher level to secure top-flight status.

We're just struggling with #3 a bit, but the last two performances had a glimmer, no more, that they are getting the picture.

Edited October 19, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,017]

Why have you titled your thread tweaky you have?........

[Uncle Fred 526]

Look at the points total the worst in club history may be a more accurate assessment of why people are moaning 

What an end of the bell thread 

[1902 1,167]

12 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

Look at the points total the worst in club history may be a more accurate assessment of why people are moaning 

What an end of the bell thread 

I'm not a massive fan of threads like this admittedly, but perhaps wait 38 games until we talk about "points total".

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

Of course there has been progress, off field especially and I don’t think there are many moaners saying over the 5 seasons there has been no progress is there?. I would say, is that squad in the last column significantly better, if at all, to the one previous because that’s what was promised and that is what we deserve after giving a pass on the previous relegation debacle. Slimmer squad of better players, it’s either not happened, it has happened and Farke can’t make it work or it has happened and needs more time to show. I hope it’s time but the moaner in me thinks it’s the first, mainly due to starting the transfer season taking 5 steps backwards.

[Robert N. LiM 4,227]

Certainly Webber's infinite game looks as though it's going in the right direction. On paper we probably have a better team and certainly a miles better squad than two years ago. We should end up being much more competitive this season than last time.

But, but... 

In the short term, things like luck and confidence play such a huge part. The lack of pre season plus the awful start plus the length of time it took to get our transfer targets in mean that we're still just getting started. And it's easy for things to spiral out of control.

I want this team to stay up so much. I really hope the model can be vindicated and be shown to work in the Prem. Even a gutsy 18th or 19th would suggest we're going in the right direction. But ye gods we need a win soon.

[Yelloow Since 72 54]

It's very true that we are just getting started, for the reasons you state, but the potential for improvement is massive given all the new players added. For me, the first real indicator will be the halfway point after 19 games. To have a realistic chance of survival we need at least around 15 points by then from the remaining 11 games. The two clean sheets have brought confidence but we need to build on that. Chelsea will be tough, but it's also a chance to show the improvement is real. A draw would be a great result, but a good performance would lift us for Leeds a week later and a run of winnable games after that. It's about points now.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Yelloow Since 72

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

There has been improvement- but my goodness given the parachute money and promotion earnings there jolly well should be. I remember moaning about Husband and the usual suspects assuring me he just needed time. 12 months later he was in L1. So it was needed. 

So yes SOME progress. But let us compare it with Palace or Soton or Burnley or innumerable other clubs who having gone up seem to have made a much better fist of it. That is the ultimate comparison. And this season- having been assured by the board lessons had been learnt and we would see real ambition- we are looking poor. Very poor and toothless. And worryingly the players we have signed to replace the MASSIVE hole left by Skipp and Buendia are both only loans- so temporary fixes who wont stick around when we inevitably drop barring some miracle. Then we are almost back at stage one....cos I bet Aarons will go too and Todd etc... Could be in a right spot. But hey... clap, clap, clap, its been a tough preseason, covid, more excuses, give it time, this is a long term project yada yada

[Duncan Edwards 2,216]

8 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

There has been improvement- but my goodness given the parachute money and promotion earnings there jolly well should be. I remember moaning about Husband and the usual suspects assuring me he just needed time. 12 months later he was in L1. So it was needed. 

So yes SOME progress. But let us compare it with Palace or Soton or Burnley or innumerable other clubs who having gone up seem to have made a much better fist of it. That is the ultimate comparison. And this season- having been assured by the board lessons had been learnt and we would see real ambition- we are looking poor. Very poor and toothless. And worryingly the players we have signed to replace the MASSIVE hole left by Skipp and Buendia are both only loans- so temporary fixes who wont stick around when we inevitably drop barring some miracle. Then we are almost back at stage one....cos I bet Aarons will go too and Todd etc... Could be in a right spot. But hey... clap, clap, clap, its been a tough preseason, covid, more excuses, give it time, this is a long term project yada yada

What do you get out of constantly predicting doom, misery and suffering? 

You recently proclaimed we’d had our best ever transfer window and now we’re poor, you’re already selling players two transfer windows down the line, the players that we signed that led you to conclude we’d had our best ever window (Normann and Kabak) are now viewed as sticking plaster solutions…

Don’t you think you should perhaps have a bit more faith in our recruitment? A bit more faith in your previous assessment? That hallelujah moment when you allowed yourself a momentary glimpse of hope and optimism, did it not fill you with joy?

Are you truly envious of Burnley, Palace and Southampton? I bet you were also envious of Sheffield United, weren’t you? 

[Tetteys Jig 830]

Clearly there has been progress but it doesn't excuse the fact we have 2 points from 8 games... we need to be better than that.

Even if we do go down, surely we should be good enough to give it a proper fight. Most of the losses are excusable but the Watford one stung and we haven't made up for it yet with other unexpected points.

Farke will go down as a legend no matter what happens but that doesn't make him immune from criticism so long as its constructive and fair.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

We have a better squad now but i'm not convinced the team is any stronger, certainly not the one being selected currently anyway.

[KeiranShikari 1,403]

35 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

There has been improvement- but my goodness given the parachute money and promotion earnings there jolly well should be. I remember moaning about Husband and the usual suspects assuring me he just needed time. 12 months later he was in L1. So it was needed. 

So yes SOME progress. But let us compare it with Palace or Soton or Burnley or innumerable other clubs who having gone up seem to have made a much better fist of it. That is the ultimate comparison. And this season- having been assured by the board lessons had been learnt and we would see real ambition- we are looking poor. Very poor and toothless. And worryingly the players we have signed to replace the MASSIVE hole left by Skipp and Buendia are both only loans- so temporary fixes who wont stick around when we inevitably drop barring some miracle. Then we are almost back at stage one....cos I bet Aarons will go too and Todd etc... Could be in a right spot. But hey... clap, clap, clap, its been a tough preseason, covid, more excuses, give it time, this is a long term project yada yada

That's the thing. We had 3 years of Premier League money under Lambert/Hughton then more under Neil and we still ended up next to broke a couple of seasons later. No progress - on or off the pitch.

I don't know the ins and outs of those other clubs but I remember Palace spending the best part of 100m in a transfer window not long after promoting. The likes of Benteke and Townsend, I doubt that's just Premier League money. A lot of their recent 'success' has been sitting behind the ball and letting 120k p/w Zaha attack on his own.

Southampton had 5 or 6 years out of the top division after being in it for decades. They already had the infastructure that we're building now. They're probably something like what we're trying to become.

Who want to be Burnley.

Edited October 19, 2021 by KeiranShikari

[KeiranShikari 1,403]

1 hour ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Of course there has been progress, off field especially and I don’t think there are many moaners saying over the 5 seasons there has been no progress is there?. I would say, is that squad in the last column significantly better, if at all, to the one previous because that’s what was promised and that is what we deserve after giving a pass on the previous relegation debacle. Slimmer squad of better players, it’s either not happened, it has happened and Farke can’t make it work or it has happened and needs more time to show. I hope it’s time but the moaner in me thinks it’s the first, mainly due to starting the transfer season taking 5 steps backwards.

Like I said, only time will really tell but I do think so. I doubt many non Norwich fans are picking our outs over our ins across the squad.

Squad vs team is a valid distinction though as Skipp and Buendia elevated us last season and we haven't signed direct replacements for either, hence why we've needed to change system. That being said the Buendias of this world cost 40m and 80k p/w so should we have been expecting that?

 

 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 hours ago, KeiranShikari said:

Are you not seeing progression here?

17/18

Obviously a Farkenstein's monster of a squad with players from 2 significantly different regimes. The football is a mixed bag but for the most part it doesn't really click and we draw loads of games. We finish 14th and then go and sell our 2 best players, obviously only going 1 way next year, right.

 

18/19

Everything clicks. We make smart signings, our youngsters are world beaters, we're scoring last minute winners every week and everyhting is amazing. In reality this squad was just a continuation of last year's work. There wasn't any real expectation that it would be in the top 6 let alone winning the league.

 

19/20

Concious decision is made to not spend on the field but to secure the finances, tie players down long term, pay off the new training ground and hope that momentum carries us through (momentum worked pretty well for us under Lambert). Instead of that happening everything goes wrong, injuries and then just as things are looking like they could improve a global pandemic.

 

20/21

Unlike 18/19 this season a squad is put together with intent on finishing in the top 2. What did we learn last season? We need to be more physical. A majority of our signings this summer are bigger, faster or stronger than those that are phased out or leave and we play a more defensively secure system. Obviously we then walk the league.

21/22

Only time will tell.

Obviously the big talking point at the moment is Emi Buendia. In my opinion Buendia's sale has allowed us to make more dramatic improvements through the squad than we would have been able to if we had kept him. Would Buendia and smaller improvements to the squad have us in a better place now? Maybe as there would be less need for the team to adapt. I'm not sure he'd have us beating a lot of the teams we've played thus far mind - see 19/20.

 

It's obviously not smooth sailing all of the time but it looks to me as if we're trending upwards. For the most part each unit of the squad is improving year on year. Facilities are constantly improving (at the cost of signing us a few world beaters I'm sure) and the youth pipeline is looking impressive.

Until a billionaire comes knocking I think this probably is our best shot at being massive.

 

 

 

Post of the season . If we're already down, we can have a post of the season.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

2 hours ago, Uncle Fred said:

Look at the points total( I know it's not a total as the season isn't over , but I'm a tw@) the worst in club history may be a more dramatic pant wetting assessment of why sad, sad  people are moaning 

What an end of the bell I am.

😉😇👍 Sorted!!!

Chroisht I enjoyed  that!!

Edited October 19, 2021 by wcorkcanary

[Danke bitte 965]

1 hour ago, Duncan Edwards said:

What do you get out of constantly predicting doom, misery and suffering? 

You recently proclaimed we’d had our best ever transfer window and now we’re poor, you’re already selling players two transfer windows down the line, the players that we signed that led you to conclude we’d had our best ever window (Normann and Kabak) are now viewed as sticking plaster solutions…

Don’t you think you should perhaps have a bit more faith in our recruitment? A bit more faith in your previous assessment? That hallelujah moment when you allowed yourself a momentary glimpse of hope and optimism, did it not fill you with joy?

Are you truly envious of Burnley, Palace and Southampton? I bet you were also envious of Sheffield United, weren’t you? 

To quote someone famous once - “Comparison is the thief of joy.” 

[Son Ova Gunn 165]

39 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

To quote someone famous once - “Comparison is the thief of joy.” 

Bet it was an Ipswich fan who said it 😂. Without wishing to remove anyone’s joy but isn’t  the whole point of competitive sport about comparison?.. football without league tables just wouldn’t be the same.

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Is one goal from open play so far, progress? 

[king canary 7,562]

So if we agree that progression in the quality of the squad is happening then why are we rock bottom and currently wondering if we're going to be troubling the record low points total we set last year?

Is it that we're progressing but other teams are progressing at a greater rate? So we may be progressing vs what we were but in 'real terms' we're actually falling further behind?

Or is it that the coaching team aren't getting enough from what they have?

[hogesar 9,611]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

So if we agree that progression in the quality of the squad is happening then why are we rock bottom and currently wondering if we're going to be troubling the record low points total we set last year?

Is it that we're progressing but other teams are progressing at a greater rate? So we may be progressing vs what we were but in 'real terms' we're actually falling further behind?

Or is it that the coaching team aren't getting enough from what they have?

It's just the nature of the Premier League.

Teams spend £100 million and finish bottom, they'd say they improved the squad etc but it doesn't work out like that. Look at the amount spent on Newcastles squad, the size of the club and the fanbase and they've amassed a point more than us, with an arguably slightly easier fixture list.

Burnley have done what some of our fans crave, simply survive for consecutive seasons in the Premier League. They've had multiple seasons of Premier League income and gradually improved the squad year on year. Again, they've amassed a single point more than us.

Heck, take Leeds who are only four points above us despite having last year in the Prem, more funds, bigger club, more money and more money spent on their squad - with one of Europe's best coaches, apparently.

[TheGunnShow 5,910]

Eight games into a season where we've had to rebuild after selling our best player for a small fortune, where that's been badly hit by Covid relative to other teams, and where we had the opening four fixtures from hell strikes me as far too small a sample size with far too many other mitigating circumstances to draw conclusions.

[yellow_belly 226]

If we have a better squad and we are getting worse results, then something is clearly wrong. Question is… who?

 

(this squad is not very good compared to previous squads under other managers. But I do agree it is a very expensive squad ‘for Norwich’)

[Making Plans 936]

There is an awful lot more to getting better results than just having better players and a better squad on paper.

What we have become better at though is the excuses for why we're not getting better results.

Last time we were in the PL it was injuries in key positions and a lack of cover.

This time it's lack of pre season friendlies, covid, international call ups, new players not gelling and the squad getting used to a different playing system.

 

 

 

[king canary 7,562]

35 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Eight games into a season where we've had to rebuild after selling our best player for a small fortune, where that's been badly hit by Covid relative to other teams, and where we had the opening four fixtures from hell strikes me as far too small a sample size with far too many other mitigating circumstances to draw conclusions.

Those four fixtures 'from hell' include teams currently 11th and 12th FYI.

[king canary 7,562]

42 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's just the nature of the Premier League.

Teams spend £100 million and finish bottom, they'd say they improved the squad etc but it doesn't work out like that. Look at the amount spent on Newcastles squad, the size of the club and the fanbase and they've amassed a point more than us, with an arguably slightly easier fixture list.

Burnley have done what some of our fans crave, simply survive for consecutive seasons in the Premier League. They've had multiple seasons of Premier League income and gradually improved the squad year on year. Again, they've amassed a single point more than us.

Heck, take Leeds who are only four points above us despite having last year in the Prem, more funds, bigger club, more money and more money spent on their squad - with one of Europe's best coaches, apparently.

I get it isn't easy but still, I'm not sure our current state is 'the nature of the Premier League.'

I don't think your Newcastle example is really applicable as I'm not sure many of their fans would suggest their squad has been improving year on year. 

The question is why do we have better players but get lesser results every time we get into the Premier League? Personally I think its a combo of the points I made above- we improve but our finances mean we likely improve at a lesser rate than others but also our coaching/tactics is not giving us enough of an edge while also managing to kill our momentum from promotion both times. 

[hogesar 9,611]

8 minutes ago, king canary said:

I get it isn't easy but still, I'm not sure our current state is 'the nature of the Premier League.'

I don't think your Newcastle example is really applicable as I'm not sure many of their fans would suggest their squad has been improving year on year. 

The question is why do we have better players but get lesser results every time we get into the Premier League? Personally I think its a combo of the points I made above- we improve but our finances mean we likely improve at a lesser rate than others but also our coaching/tactics is not giving us enough of an edge while also managing to kill our momentum from promotion both times. 

I'm not sure we killed our momentum 2 years ago. Despite injury problems we only lost 3-1 to Liverpool, beat Newcastle 3-1, and lost 3-2 to Chelsea. We then lost 2-0 to West Ham, but beat Man City 3-2. I'm not sure we killed momentum, we were just quite clearly not good enough, alongside a hideous injury situation in what were already our weakest positions. 

Newcastle fans wouldn't agree because they believe they should be top 6. But they've had repeated Premier League seasons. This season they were able to spent nearly £30 million on Joe Willock, which is above our capabilities. The season before they signed Callum Wilson for £20 million, Ryan Fraser and obviously Jamal Lewis.

The season before that they spent £40 million on Joelinton, £18 million on Saint-Maximin. In those three seasons the only real significant outgoing was Perez to Leicester. That they've only amassed a point more than us despite all the above kind of makes it incredibly applicable to the point i'm making.

Edited October 20, 2021 by hogesar

[BobLoz3 492]

I think this is a good post and also worth noting that we've brought in some really good youngsters too this season and a few of them have already had experience playing at League One (or two) level. Hopefully improves their chances of getting better during their time with us and progressing into the first team set up 

[TheGunnShow 5,910]

54 minutes ago, king canary said:

Those four fixtures 'from hell' include teams currently 11th and 12th FYI.

Which brings us nicely to the sample size. Still far too small.

[king canary 7,562]

13 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I'm not sure we killed our momentum 2 years ago. Despite injury problems we only lost 3-1 to Liverpool, beat Newcastle 3-1, and lost 3-2 to Chelsea. We then lost 2-0 to West Ham, but beat Man City 3-2. I'm not sure we killed momentum, we were just quite clearly not good enough, alongside a hideous injury situation in what were already our weakest positions. 

Newcastle fans wouldn't agree because they believe they should be top 6. But they've had repeated Premier League seasons. This season they were able to spent nearly £30 million on Joe Willock, which is above our capabilities. The season before they signed Callum Wilson for £20 million, Ryan Fraser and obviously Jamal Lewis.

The season before that they spent £40 million on Joelinton, £18 million on Saint-Maximin. In those three seasons the only real significant outgoing was Perez to Leicester. That they've only amassed a point more than us despite all the above kind of makes it incredibly applicable to the point i'm making.

It might be relevant to your point but it isn't relevant to the point you were replying to.

I'm not asking 'why aren't we Newcastle' or similar. I'm asking why do we keep improving on paper while getting worse on the field. What Newcastle, Burnley or Leeds are doing/spending is largely not relevant to the question. 

This squad vs the squad Lambert had, or the one Neil had is, again on paper, unarguably better. Nobody is trading Gibson/Kabak/Hanley for Ward/Whitbred/Barnett for instance. Yet that team comfortably finished mid table and Neil at least was competitive for a large chunk of the season. Yet under Farke, heralded by many as the best manager we've ever had playing the best football we've ever seen, we consistently cannot compete at this level. So is it that Farke is missing something that other managers had? Or is it just the gap has grown so much between the top of the Championship that competing is that much harder? In which case why can Brentford or Sheffield United do it, even in the short term, when we can't?