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17 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I was asking when the positive percys begin to question. Perhaps it is never - you can just stick your head in the sand instead. Attack the poster instead of answer the questions 

Accepting mediocrity and sleepwalking to relegation?

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Aside from the obvious and premature ‘I told you so’ original post (sorry DCB, agree with a lot you say), it is interesting why some fans feel considerably more let down than others by the same events and I don’t believe it just comes down to general mindset in life.

for example, @1902 points out like many others that Emi didn’t want to play for us anymore and we had no choice but to sell, but conversely I see the same situation and say Emi wanted better pay for his talents, money they we should have made available by adopting a similar position to 95% of the league in paying star players significantly more than others. 
 

I think most of the reason boils down to two things, firstly where you feel our club belongs in the pyramid (top 17, top 20, 26?) and secondly if the owners are guardians showing the world how to overcome the odds or championship owners now holding us back. Those that have faith in the owners and top 26 aspiration will see the last two results as positive steps forward, those that have lost faith and think we are a top 17 club see a very achievable 4 points dropped. Which begs the question who is a pessimist and who’s the optimistic.

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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I’m not wanting to ask who is big enough on paper- I am questioning at what point of failure fans are allowed to criticise? Given that many on here are very aggressive if anyone dares do that despite the very bleak backdrop 

Well, given that you only ever appear to whinge and criticise, you seem to have already decided.  But it’s probably for that very reason people don’t take you very seriously. 

It is fair to ask questions and have inquests, but only once we know the outcome.  No one expected anything from the first 4 games of the season and since then you’d have to be blind not to see some progress; but for some 50:50 var calls we may have managed more points (Arsenal, Leicester, Watford, Everton), but the season is 38 games long, not 8 (or fewer) as you appear to believe.

Edited by Branston Pickle

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

No idea what a 'clapper' is beyond someone who supports their team but either way you're absolutely tragic.

What you actually said on 31st August was:

You said it was the best transfer window you can remember.

Let's not pretend you had some insight beyond everyone else because we all know that's false and proven above.

To be fair, he didn't expect to see £20m worth of wingers on the bench and the first XI fitting a wingerless system.

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1 minute ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

To be fair, he didn't expect to see £20m worth of wingers on the bench and the first XI fitting a wingerless system.

Yeah, but that's the probably the only thing he hasn't complained about, so I'm guessing that bit isn't a problem for him

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1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, but that's the probably the only thing he hasn't complained about, so I'm guessing that bit isn't a problem for him

Fair enough, you do have him bang to rights.

Although £25m of our transfer outlay being stuck on the bench is my concern at the moment, will be interesting to see whether the system continues to evolve. I'm seeing the last two games as a project reset, going back to basics to show they players that they aren't terrible, now we need to work out how we evolve from here to become more dangerous in the final third (and quickly).

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36 minutes ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Aside from the obvious and premature ‘I told you so’ original post (sorry DCB, agree with a lot you say), it is interesting why some fans feel considerably more let down than others by the same events and I don’t believe it just comes down to general mindset in life.

for example, @1902 points out like many others that Emi didn’t want to play for us anymore and we had no choice but to sell, but conversely I see the same situation and say Emi wanted better pay for his talents, money they we should have made available by adopting a similar position to 95% of the league in paying star players significantly more than others. 
 

I think most of the reason boils down to two things, firstly where you feel our club belongs in the pyramid (top 17, top 20, 26?) and secondly if the owners are guardians showing the world how to overcome the odds or championship owners now holding us back. Those that have faith in the owners and top 26 aspiration will see the last two results as positive steps forward, those that have lost faith and think we are a top 17 club see a very achievable 4 points dropped. Which begs the question who is a pessimist and who’s the optimistic.

Excellent post. In essence then it might be that the real pant wetters are the clappers - because they are resigned to being second tier and not competitive at this level and don’t much care about relegation. Whereas the wetters are actually the positive clappers- because they can seen the potential to push on another level and feel we are being held back unnecessarily. Interesting…

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1 hour ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I was asking when the positive percys begin to question. Perhaps it is never - you can just stick your head in the sand instead. Attack the poster instead of answer the questions 

Believe it or not I actually agree with you on the main point. We are paupers at a billionaires banquet. Until we change our ownership model it is going to be somewhere between incredibly difficult to impossible to establish ourselves in the Premier League.

I don't blame Daniel Farke, I don't blame Stuart Webber, I don't blame zonal marking at corners, I don't blame the timing of our substitutions, I don't blame playing 5-3-2 instead of 4-2-3-1, I don't blame Lukas Rupp, Todd Cantwell or Adam Idah or whoever this week's scapegoat happens to be, I don't blame not picking Christos Tzolis, I don't blame the pre-match music and I don't blame the Soccerbot.

The Premier League is a vile entity in many, many ways, but what is indisputable is that every season the standard of the teams on the pitch increases rapidly.

Along with Ricardo and many others on this board I'm happy with the yo-yo. Quite frankly our recent seasons in the Championship have been far more fun than those in the Premier League. 

It's a free country and you can criticise away ad-nauseum on this board if you wish to, but as Wcorkio has pointed out above you're just pi$$ing into the wind unless you're prepared to get off your 'arris and do something to change our ownership model.

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6 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Believe it or not I actually agree with you on the main point. We are paupers at a billionaires banquet. Until we change our ownership model it is going to be somewhere between incredibly difficult to impossible to establish ourselves in the Premier League.

I don't blame Daniel Farke, I don't blame Stuart Webber, I don't blame zonal marking at corners, I don't blame the timing of our substitutions, I don't blame playing 5-3-2 instead of 4-2-3-1, I don't blame Lukas Rupp, Todd Cantwell or Adam Idah or whoever this week's scapegoat happens to be, I don't blame not picking Christos Tzolis, I don't blame the pre-match music and I don't blame the Soccerbot.

The Premier League is a vile entity in many, many ways, but what is indisputable is that every season the standard of the teams on the pitch increases rapidly.

Along with Ricardo and many others on this board I'm happy with the yo-yo. Quite frankly our recent seasons in the Championship have been far more fun than those in the Premier League. 

It's a free country and you can criticise away ad-nauseum on this board if you wish to, but as Wcorkio has pointed out above you're just pi$$ing into the wind unless you're prepared to get off your 'arris and do something to change our ownership model.

It's shows how different the fan base is from say, the 1990's. Nobody wanted to get relegated then. 

 

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12 minutes ago, komakino said:

It's shows how different the fan base is from say, the 1990's. Nobody wanted to get relegated then. 

 

I don't think it's the fan base that's changed - it's the whole set up of football. The advent of the Premier League has completely changed the financial relationship between the top two divisions.

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16 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I don't think it's the fan base that's changed - it's the whole set up of football. The advent of the Premier League has completely changed the financial relationship between the top two divisions.

Nobody fought to get Robert Chase out to get relegated and nobody was happy being in the second tier. We no longer - for some no longer - have the aspiration for the top tier and it is of no co-incidence that the majority shareholders are less than savoury for it. I'm not a yo-yo-ist and the EPL will cut the strings sooner or later. 

The EPL has got richer, but it was always going to. That's why it was created. I never wanted Chase replaced by amateurs, I wanted the club to be taken to the next level or at least to keep up with the EPL. But it didn't happen. 

Edited by komakino

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2 minutes ago, Leedscanary said:

Only a Devine Intervention can save us this season I reckon 

It will take a biblical effort to get DCB to believe we can turn it around. 

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18 minutes ago, komakino said:

Nobody fought to get Robert Chase out to get relegated and nobody was happy being in the second tier. We no longer - for some no longer - have the aspiration for the top tier and it is of no co-incidence that the majority shareholders are less than savoury for it. I'm not a yo-yo-ist and the EPL will cut the strings sooner or later. 

The EPL has got richer, but it was always going to. That's why it was created. I never wanted Chase replaced by amateurs, I wanted the club to be taken to the next level or at least to keep up with the EPL. But it didn't happen. 

Good grief - every so often they find a Japanese soldier on a remote Pacific Island who still thinks the Second World War is going on. You're the Norwich City equivalent. Robert Chase was removed from our club 25 years ago. You're his last remaining apologist. Probably time to move on. 

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4 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Before we kicked a ball this season I stated my firm belief that we hadn’t learnt any lessons. Our midfield still lacked physicality, we were signing small young players with an eye on future sales rather than making a proper fist of it, and we lacked proven goal scorers beyond an ageing Pukki at this level. I was loudly attacked for being a moaner. 
 

fast forward and everything I predicted has come to pass. But instead of saying / fair enough you had a point / I STILL get attacked for being a moaner/negative!! 
 

So my question is - am I meant to cheer our worst ever start to a season and rejoice in it? Am I meant to delight in having spent a fortune on new players who don’t even get picked come October because they don’t fit the system we are playing.  Or is there a point where criticism of the board is reasonable and, if so, when is that? 

Small players? Kabak, PLM, Normann, Sargent, Williams and even Tzolils has some decent physicality about him. Rashica is quick and will get stuck in. Unless I'm forgetting somebody Gilmour is the only 'lightweight' signing we made. We're not going to overrun team physically but as we've proven in the last couple of games we can stand up to it much better. Players that are both physically domineering as well as technically superior cost a lot more than we have, I'd suggest we've moved towards a happy medium.

We're always going to make signings with one eye on the future because that's the model they're running with. We probably could have improved now by signing the likes of Josh King and Danny Rose but that would have essentially meant giving huge wages and not signing the younger talent.

Look at the squad's development year on year since Farke and Webber got here. It's steady progress and a majority of that is down to developing and selling young players. The plan is clearly to get to a stage where there's less need to sell but that's not now.

Anyway feel free to keep moanin, honestly don't get the enjoyment you seem to get out of it but I'm not here to judge. You do you and all that.

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2 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Good grief - every so often they find a Japanese soldier on a remote Pacific Island who still thinks the Second World War is going on. You're the Norwich City equivalent. Robert Chase was removed from our club 25 years ago. You're his last remaining apologist. Probably time to move on. 

I'm merely pointing out the change in attitude - what the fans accepted then and what they accept now. 

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12 minutes ago, komakino said:

I'm merely pointing out the change in attitude - what the fans accepted then and what they accept now. 

The attitude has changed because football has changed!!  (When the facts change opinions change). 

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1 hour ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Aside from the obvious and premature ‘I told you so’ original post (sorry DCB, agree with a lot you say), it is interesting why some fans feel considerably more let down than others by the same events and I don’t believe it just comes down to general mindset in life.

for example, @1902 points out like many others that Emi didn’t want to play for us anymore and we had no choice but to sell, but conversely I see the same situation and say Emi wanted better pay for his talents, money they we should have made available by adopting a similar position to 95% of the league in paying star players significantly more than others. 
 

I think most of the reason boils down to two things, firstly where you feel our club belongs in the pyramid (top 17, top 20, 26?) and secondly if the owners are guardians showing the world how to overcome the odds or championship owners now holding us back. Those that have faith in the owners and top 26 aspiration will see the last two results as positive steps forward, those that have lost faith and think we are a top 17 club see a very achievable 4 points dropped. Which begs the question who is a pessimist and who’s the optimistic.

I think this is a fair post. I only get annoyed when people claim that they know more than the rest of us or there is an easy solution to the problem.

*Also because it was a Tuesday morning and I didn't want to go work

I agree about that being a possible strategy with the likes of Buendia, but I'm not sure it would have been the right one. I think it would have left lots of gaps in our squad that we would have come to regret.

I actually do believe the wealth of our owners holds us back. I think anyone denying that is absolutely barking up the wrong tree. However, I tend to think they get a lot of other things right, far from perfect, but we wouldn't be where we are if they were running the club badly.

They have their flaws, they have their qualities but I'm not going to pretend that I see more examples of better owners than I see examples of worse. Until someone comes along with a concrete example of a better owner (or potential owner) who we have turned down, then I just don't see any point being disappointed by it all.

In that case top 26 is probably a fair expectation, but I want it to be top 17 and hope to god we can find a way to be that. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

The attitude has changed because football has changed!!  (When the facts change opinions change). 

I think the attitude has changed because the club have been very savvy with PR and sold entering a Ferrari race in a mini metro as being noble and clever. Self sustaining sounds virtuous in a world of shady owners. But go ask any Newcastle fan who would swap places tomorrow and I guarantee you won’t get takers. That is the problem with idealism in a fallen world..the good guys rarely win. 
 

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2 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I think this is a fair post. I only get annoyed when people claim that they know more than the rest of us or there is an easy solution to the problem.

*Also because it was a Tuesday morning and I didn't want to go work

I agree about that being a possible strategy with the likes of Buendia, but I'm not sure it would have been the right one. I think it would have left lots of gaps in our squad that we would have come to regret.

I actually do believe the wealth of our owners holds us back. I think anyone denying that is absolutely barking up the wrong tree. However, I tend to think they get a lot of other things right, far from perfect, but we wouldn't be where we are if they were running the club badly.

They have their flaws, they have their qualities but I'm not going to pretend that I see more examples of better owners than I see examples of worse. Until someone comes along with a concrete example of a better owner (or potential owner) who we have turned down, then I just don't see any point being disappointed by it all.

In that case top 26 is probably a fair expectation, but I want it to be top 17 and hope to god we can find a way to be that. 

 

We will never know whether we have - or would have had - good offers for the club, but after Delia's ill-advised Times interview where she came across as arrogant with her 'never sell' and 'we don't even listen to offers' mantra, she has done the club a great disservice instead of being open minded. It doesn't hurt to listen, even if the offer is no good. 

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3 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I think the attitude has changed because the club have been very savvy with PR and sold entering a Ferrari race in a mini metro as being noble and clever. Self sustaining sounds virtuous in a world of shady owners. But go ask any Newcastle fan who would swap places tomorrow and I guarantee you won’t get takers. That is the problem with idealism in a fallen world..the good guys rarely win. 
 

So you think we should abandon trying to be the good guys? That being virtuous is a bad thing? Interesting. 

As an aside, I reckon if you asked Norwich fans if they would swap places with Newcastle and I guarantee that you'd get plenty that wouldn't. 

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5 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You think PLM and Normann are small...... 

Kabak is a MONSTER

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14 minutes ago, komakino said:

We will never know whether we have - or would have had - good offers for the club, but after Delia's ill-advised Times interview where she came across as arrogant with her 'never sell' and 'we don't even listen to offers' mantra, she has done the club a great disservice instead of being open minded. It doesn't hurt to listen, even if the offer is no good. 

Oh come on - of course we would have known!  Some mega rich millionaire/billionaire who really wants to buy the club approaches Delia and Michael. Delia and Michael knock them back.

What to do you think happens next?

A. Millionaire/billionaire disappears without a sound.

B. Millionaire/billionaire lets every media outlet and Norwich City fan group they have made an offer for the club and been rebuffed.

 

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Welcome to the club! I also get attacked for bringing home uncomfortable truths which people don't want to hear. And some of them pay me the ultimate compliment - which is to block my words!

I shall therefore carry on with renewed vigour!

To be fair to Farke in the last two games he has started to do some of the things which I have been calling for for a very long time. He is trying to tighten up at the back and waiting for the right moment to attack rather than just going all-out attack with scant regard for defence. As a smaller and skint club in this league it is essential to play percentage football - there is no other way. Numpty fans will never understand this so it will be interesting to see how this new relationship pans out in the months ahead. I have no doubt that in the fantasy land of Norwich numpty fans they would rather lose every game 8-7 than 1-0. Bond vs Hughton. But the boy Aarons was spot on in his post-match comments - you cannot hope to win games in this league on the basis of conceding loads of goals. You have to keep it tight, earn the right to play and hope to nick a goal at the other end. The reason Stoke stayed up for so long was because they had that solid defence plus a goalscorer to nick a goal or two. The missing link for Norwich is to find that goalscorer - but the boy Webber was adamant during the summer window that they would not buy a £30 million plus striker. So the club remains where it always has been in this league - bottom of the pile and lacking willing owners who want to find a suitable benefactor to take it to the next level. Hogground day.

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9 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

Oh come on - of course we would have known!  Some mega rich millionaire/billionaire who really wants to buy the club approaches Delia and Michael. Delia and Michael knock them back.

What to do you think happens next?

A. Millionaire/billionaire disappears without a sound.

B. Millionaire/billionaire lets every media outlet and Norwich City fan group they have made an offer for the club and been rebuffed.

 

More likely C. Millionaire/billionaire doesn't bother making an offer that they would do otherwise as they know it will get rebuffed due to Delia & MWJ's previous comments. 

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2 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

Those that have faith in the owners and top 26 aspiration will see the last two results as positive steps forward, those that have lost faith and think we are a top 17 club see a very achievable 4 points dropped. Which begs the question who is a pessimist and who’s the optimistic.

Possibly some truth in those statements  @Son Ova Gunn but maybe there is another category - who is a realist?

Most on here wouldn't want a dodgy ownership but want to belong to a real community club with the kind of values associated with it yet also realise it's more complicated and difficult to attain a seat at the top table with such a set up. You either support the attempt at doing so (not necessarily whole heartedly but at least you 'support') or become embittered.

Ultimately it all boils down to results as to our short term views. But there are many other pleasures in supporting a club like ours over a lifetime. Taking a much longer term view there has been so much value in being a Norwich City supporter these last 50 years. Maybe even a top ten ride of all clubs that are in the top two divisions? We've had a lot to feel grateful for.

As ever, it's about perspective I think.

Edited by sonyc
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I have been to nearly all the home matches this season and am fed up with all the 'Farke out' comments etc ..... on Saturday it was obvious that improvements have been made by the coaching staff ..... the defence was solid, the midfield played with more cohesion and (apart from some poor finishing) the strikers linked well with that midfield ..... Pukki and Sargent worked their behinds off and with a bit more confidence when it comes to finishing I feel sure goals will come ..... Sargent has received a lot of stick from some keyboard warriors but his performance yesterday was sound ..... he was tireless in his pressing and got into some great positions, I know he missed a sitter but, as I said, with more confidence goals will come ...... the much criticised (by the same keyboard warriors) Grant Hanley also impressed, as did his defensive colleagues ...... Brighton are in the top 4 and in excellent form and it was NCFC who made them look ordinary ...... the team is starting to gel which is why Farke probably played an unchanged side ..... it's all very well saying stuff like 'Gilmour should be in'. 'where's Cantwell?' and 'we miss Buendia' but the situation is as it is ..... the team over the past 2 matches has played well and kept clean sheets ..... also, Buendia has been rubbish for Villa all season according to my mate who is a Villa fan, so the grass isn't always greener ...... City have some good players, they have a good manager and a board that is keeping the club out of the financial mire ..... NCFC may be bottom of the league but that league is the Premier League, not the Championship or League 1 ...... in this age of financial clout being so important in football and of people wanting everything now instead of waiting for things to develop NCFC could have given in and spent multi-squillion pounds on the squad and still ended up bottom of the league ..... be grateful for what you have, a team that is in the Premier League and fighting hard to stay there ..... the last time City went up it was all about Sheff Utd and how great they were ..... this time it's all about Brentford ..... look where Sheff Utd are today, 15th in the Championship ...... who's to say that Brentford won't be in the same position in a couple of years with NCFC back (or still) in the Premier League ..... as the late, great Jimmy Greaves once said ''it's a funny old game is football'' ...... I may be viewed by some as a 'Happy Clapper' but I say keep the faith ..... OTBC 🙂
 
 
 
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7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Possibly some truth in those statements  @Son Ova Gunn but maybe there is another category - who is a realist?

Most on here wouldn't want a dodgy ownership but want to belong to a real community club with the kind of values associated with it yet also realise it's more complicated and difficult to attain a seat at the top table with such a set up. You either support the attempt at doing so (not necessarily whole heartedly but at least you 'support') or become embittered.

Ultimately it all boils down to results as to our short term views. But there are many other pleasures in supporting a club like ours over a lifetime. Taking a much longer term view there has been so much value in being a Norwich City supporter these last 50 years. Maybe even a top ten ride of all clubs that are in the top two divisions? We've had a lot to feel grateful for.

As ever, it's about perspective I think.

Agree with this entirely. Great post

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30 minutes ago, komakino said:

More likely C. Millionaire/billionaire doesn't bother making an offer that they would do otherwise as they know it will get rebuffed due to Delia & MWJ's previous comments. 

Yeah - because millionaires/billionaires got what they are by slinking away the first time they hit an obstacle. 

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