DF and Tzolis

[lake district canary 4,531]

6 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

You're trolling, I get it.

?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

2 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

You realise that in our squad of 25 players, 24 of them cost less than Tzolis to acquire and the other one is Tzolis? 

You do realise that you're wrong and that we paid more for Rashica than Tzolis?

And you do realise that by your absurd 'logic' we should be playing Gunn instead of Krul and Mumba instead of Aarons because they cost more? 

(How are Lee Camp and Lewis Travis getting on by the way? 🤣😂). 

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 hours ago, lake district canary said:

?

Dowell, McLean, Mumba and Hanley worth as much, or close to as much, as Tzolis.

This has to be trolling. No one with the ability to operate a device that enables you to post on here could possibly think that.

[hogesar 9,615]

9 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

You do realise that you're wrong and that we paid more for Rashica than Tzolis?

And you do realise that by your absurd 'logic' we should be playing Gunn instead of Krul and Mumba instead of Aarons because they cost more? 

(How are Lee Camp and Lewis Travis getting on by the way? 🤣😂). 

😅😅

[lake district canary 4,531]

45 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Dowell, McLean, Mumba and Hanley worth as much, or close to as much, as Tzolis.

This has to be trolling. No one with the ability to operate a device that enables you to post on here could possibly think that.

Dowell could well be worth that. He cost us quite a bit from Everton and is a very good player.

Mumba is highly rated and has the potential to become a £10m plus player.  

I'll give you Mclean may not be worth that, partly due to his age, but as I said he was one of our best players last season and any championship team would be pleased to have him.

You underate Hanley too. At his peak age, proving himself to be a very good player at the top level. Might not get £10m if we sold him, but we couldn't replace him easily for £10m.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

12 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

I never said a ‘lot’. But can you not see the focus has been getting the back line right? The demand from some fans for immediate success  is just detached from reality. Those first few games we played Rashica, Cantwell in a formation that failed miserably. It can be argued Tzolis could have played in place of one of those for one of those games but the end result would more than likely have been the same due to the massive defensive issues. Since then the focus has been defensive solidity and using our two strikers on the break and with longer balls upfield. Those attacking players won’t be so easy to fit into that system and so haven’t got as much time on the pitch. It’s resulted in two draws and clean sheets.

If our attacking line up continues to solely consist of Pukki and Sargent then yes, questions will need answering. If we had created nothing yesterday that I could almost understand the negativity. But taken in context I can fully understand why we went with the 3 in midfield and Sargent/Pukki up top for the last 2 games.

This is just another example of ‘football manager’ fan opinion. Success is just a few clicks away. Thankfully Farkes in charge and he’s building something in the real world. His record of bringing new players, and young new players at that, through to the first team (not to mention this is the PL rather than the much easier championship) has been pretty exemplary and until there’s an obvious time when Tzolis should have at least been tried, we should all just trust and wait.

Absolutely spot on, Zac. How on this earth people can’t see that drawing rather losing whilst conceding *nothing* is not a step in the right direction is quite beyond me! The team are starting to gain confidence from this, which is kind of important, and the goals will come as said confidence grows. We most certainly are heading in the right direction. We are starting to look a solid unit now and expecting us to go from haemorrhaging goals to thrashing teams overnight simply isn’t realistic. 

12 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

We've stopped shipping goals but the rot is not winning games, which we objectively have not stopped, at all.

No, the rot was losing every single game whilst conceding far too many goals. Sorting out the back line was always the first mission. Credit to Farke, he’s clearly addressed that aspect first and foremost, as any smart coach or manager would. That is the necessary middle ground we have to go through. Brentford for instance certainty do not have a better team than us but they are picking up results because they are playing with confidence. Confidence is everything and knowing we are defensively sound is the foundation to moving forward to where we want to be. 

[yellowrider120 761]

6 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Absolutely spot on, Zac. How on this earth people can’t see that drawing rather losing whilst conceding *nothing* is not a step in the right direction is quite beyond me! The team are starting to gain confidence from this, which is kind of important, and the goals will come as said confidence grows. We most certainly are heading in the right direction. We are starting to look a solid unit now and expecting us to go from haemorrhaging goals to thrashing teams overnight simply isn’t realistic. 

No, the rot was losing every single game whilst conceding far too many goals. Sorting out the back line was always the first mission. Credit to Farke, he’s clearly addressed that aspect first and foremost, as any smart coach or manager would. That is the necessary middle ground we have to go through. Brentford for instance certainty do not have a better team than us but they are picking up results because they are playing with confidence. Confidence is everything and knowing we are defensively sound is the foundation to moving forward to where we want to be. 

Er, I'm sorry but they most certainly DO have a better team than us. Results and performances confirm this. Granted that 'confidence' is a vital component but to suggest they are inferior to us is Happy Clapper land gone mad! 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

8 minutes ago, yellowrider120 said:

Er, I'm sorry but they most certainly DO have a better team than us. Results and performances confirm this. Granted that 'confidence' is a vital component but to suggest they are inferior to us is Happy Clapper land gone mad! 

Nope, the Play Off winners have a more confident team than us, I suspect largely due to the p155 easy start they had, and that confidence is exactly why they are getting the results they are. This is not the first time we’ve seen a side performing above themselves due to the feel good factor (Hello Sheffield United).

Edited October 18, 2021 by Alex Moss

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

11 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

Nope, the Play Off winners have a more confident team than us, I suspect largely due to the p155 easy start they had, and that confidence is exactly why they are getting the results they are. This is not the first time we’ve seen a side performing above themselves due to the feel good factor (Hello Sheffield United).

And the point is? The facts are that despite the apparent hatred of Sheffield Utd, they did manage two seasons and currently Brentford, the new hated, look better than us. Surely you couldn't be impressed with their performance against Chelsea?

Who knows, by the end of the season, we could be safe and them relegated, but for now, give credit where it is due.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

They don’t have better players than us but they are a more confident and cohesive team, playing in a style that they are used to playing and haven’t completely torn up their previous successful formula in order to remedy a tendency to make schoolboy defensive errors. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 hour ago, Alex Moss said:

No, the rot was losing every single game whilst conceding far too many goals. Sorting out the back line was always the first mission. Credit to Farke, he’s clearly addressed that aspect first and foremost, as any smart coach or manager would. That is the necessary middle ground we have to go through. Brentford for instance certainty do not have a better team than us but they are picking up results because they are playing with confidence. Confidence is everything and knowing we are defensively sound is the foundation to moving forward to where we want to be. 

Given our ambition is to stay in the Premier League, "the rot" is defined as anything that gets in the way of that objective. Not winning games is therefore absolutely the rot. Another 30 goalless draws and we are relegated. Without winning games we are relegated. We're still not winning games, ergo the rot continues.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Given our ambition is to stay in the Premier League, "the rot" is defined as anything that gets in the way of that objective. Not winning games is therefore absolutely the rot. Another 30 goalless draws and we are relegated. Without winning games we are relegated. We're still not winning games, ergo the rot continues.

32 points might actually be enough to stay up this season.

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

32 points might actually be enough to stay up this season.

To be fair, you're probably right.

[Hardhouse44 261]

17 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

32 points might actually be enough to stay up this season.

And if it was would you accept that as success?

32 goalless draws I mean!

Edited October 18, 2021 by Hardhouse44

[Ian 1,129]

Just now, Hardhouse44 said:

And if it was would you accept that as success?

32 goalless draws I mean!

I don't think that's very likely, do you?

But what are you really asking - whether staying up at all costs would be considered a success? I don't see how it could be seen as anything else; it would give something to build upon for next season.

[BigFish 1,986]

14 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

Totally Agree if the Boy can skin a Fullback and get the ball in the danger area that is what we need for Pukki

Jeez, have you actually watched any football since the eighties.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

15 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

I do not understand what bedding in is. Talent over tactics when you are as poor as us at the moment.

The boy has played enough football to know what to do. I am bemused with all the spouting about bedding in. Scaring the carp out of defenders suits me over whether he covers for his fullback like the flipcharts say he should.

So you're advocating that we take the same approach that Solskjaer's trying at Man Utd at the moment?

(I'll let you in on a secret - it doesn't work). 

[Hardhouse44 261]

32 minutes ago, Ian said:

I don't think that's very likely, do you?

But what are you really asking - whether staying up at all costs would be considered a success? I don't see how it could be seen as anything else; it would give something to build upon for next season.

Yes I think I am asking that because it feels like some fans are content with what is dished up and will accept anything. 
 

Supporting the club is important to all but let’s not forget this is a form of entertainment, and if something I come across rude and aggressive to other as I think I may have done on Saturday evening I apologise but I wasn’t entertained I didn’t see improvement I saw an adaption to prevent lose but with little or no chance of scoring let alone winning. 

 2 goals 1 from open play in 8 matches. That dire and not football as it should be. Its not acceptable and for me it’s very sad to see what we are prepared to accept as a club and a fan base. 
 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

35 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So you're advocating that we take the same approach that Solskjaer's trying at Man Utd at the moment?

(I'll let you in on a secret - it doesn't work). 

Neither are our tactics with the more ordinary players in the side.

Why Manure? Hardly the right comparison.

[norfolkngood 1,086]

46 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Jeez, have you actually watched any football since the eighties.

Ha maybe a Little old school !! Ruel Fox was my Favorite Player !!

But you know what i mean we need that i know we need solid players but we need some flair also 

[The Great Mass Debater 1,076]

Tzolis is a young lad playing for the first time in a foreign country. I've no idea what his level of English is, it might be next to zero. I think Farke is simply protecting him a little and not asking too much of him in these initial stages. Dont underestimate what an adjustment all of that is. Plus we have changed our system and he doesnt really fit in it at present.

Personally I would like to see us stick with what we've done so far, but in the second half, when the game tends to open up a bit to have both Rashica and Tzolis on opposite flanks with a central striker

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

1 hour ago, keelansgrandad said:

Neither are our tactics with the more ordinary players in the side.

Why Manure? Hardly the right comparison.

The point I was making - and I thought it was pretty obvious - was that Man Utd have far more talented individual players than us, but they're tactically clueless. The idea that you can just lump a bunch of talented individuals together without a tactical plan and hope to win games in the Premier League is ridiculous. 

[Alex Moss 2,165]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

And the point is? The facts are that despite the apparent hatred of Sheffield Utd, they did manage two seasons and currently Brentford, the new hated, look better than us. Surely you couldn't be impressed with their performance against Chelsea?

Who knows, by the end of the season, we could be safe and them relegated, but for now, give credit where it is due.

Huh? The point I made couldn’t be clearer. There are not many football fans who don’t believe Brentford are punching above their weight, and I have given credit to them for playing freely with *confidence* which has enabled them to get the results. That’s all it is though, confidence - they aren’t to a man superior to us.

[Alex Moss 2,165]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Given our ambition is to stay in the Premier League, "the rot" is defined as anything that gets in the way of that objective. Not winning games is therefore absolutely the rot. Another 30 goalless draws and we are relegated. Without winning games we are relegated. We're still not winning games, ergo the rot continues.

Hear what you’re saying, and fair enough - I guess it all comes down to what you perceive to be stopping the rot, and ours is obviously not the same perception. Your’s is stopping both losing and drawing games, and mine is simply to start seeing an upturn in results as that can only be described as an improvement.

[Ian 1,129]

1 hour ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Yes I think I am asking that because it feels like some fans are content with what is dished up and will accept anything. 
 

Supporting the club is important to all but let’s not forget this is a form of entertainment, and if something I come across rude and aggressive to other as I think I may have done on Saturday evening I apologise but I wasn’t entertained I didn’t see improvement I saw an adaption to prevent lose but with little or no chance of scoring let alone winning. 

 2 goals 1 from open play in 8 matches. That dire and not football as it should be. Its not acceptable and for me it’s very sad to see what we are prepared to accept as a club and a fan base. 
 

 

I don't think anybody has suggested that results and goals for/against within our first 8 games are acceptable and/or entertaining? If they have, then I apologise, but I can't see any fans who are content with this.

The fact is, it's a long season and things can change very quickly in football. Furthermore we've got to be thinking about the following seasons; if a more defensive outlook over the next set of games is going to help give us something a chance of staying in this division then as a pragmatist, it's something I would accept.

Simply put, needs must at the moment. If Farke thinks that sacrificing his favoured style of football for part of this season, to give the club something to build on next season, I would understand and accept this. If it persists across the entire season OR we get relegated and/or it continues into next season then the club and his staff should be held fully accountable for the obvious change in philosophy.

[TheGunnShow 5,926]

16 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

We've stopped shipping goals but the rot is not winning games, which we objectively have not stopped, at all.

I'd be very interested to hear who the "many" are that are worth more than Tzolis in the current market. If he lingers about on the bench for a season that value will drop but right now he is probably one of the most valuable players in our squad. Aarons is ahead of him and arguably Cantwell but I'm not sure who else would attract a higher fee in our squad.

Both Cantwell and Aarons would attract higher bids right now - at least from Premier League clubs - by dint of the fact they are home-grown players with the rules about such in the PL.

[BigFish 1,986]

Supposedly, Farke has been naive and put out teams that were "bullied" at this level. Last EPL season he tried 4231 and didn't have a plan B. This season he tried 433 and we lost 6 on the spin. So now he is putting out what is effectively 352 and we have gone 193 minutes withou conceding a goal. That to me indicates he isn't naive, we have a plan B and we are not going to get bullied. It looks like progress, rot stopping or whatever you care to call it. Whether posters on here find that "acceptable" or not is irrelevent, football is not entertainment, football is sport, it is about results.

[Hardhouse44 261]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Supposedly, Farke has been naive and put out teams that were "bullied" at this level. Last EPL season he tried 4231 and didn't have a plan B. This season he tried 433 and we lost 6 on the spin. So now he is putting out what is effectively 352 and we have gone 193 minutes withou conceding a goal. That to me indicates he isn't naive, we have a plan B and we are not going to get bullied. It looks like progress, rot stopping or whatever you care to call it. Whether posters on here find that "acceptable" or not is irrelevent, football is not entertainment, football is sport, it is about results.

But we've gone even more than that not scoring a goal. We score at a rate of 1 goal every 360mins or every 4 games  stats cant be used only one way. That is Totally unacceptable! As for football not being entertainment that rubbish  if it doesn't entertain people professional football doesn't exist. And your comment about results also is correct in the fact that it is entertaining when you are on the side of a positive result. We are not.

[BigFish 1,986]

26 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

But we've gone even more than that not scoring a goal. We score at a rate of 1 goal every 360mins or every 4 games  stats cant be used only one way. That is Totally unacceptable! As for football not being entertainment that rubbish  if it doesn't entertain people professional football doesn't exist. And your comment about results also is correct in the fact that it is entertaining when you are on the side of a positive result. We are not.

Totally unacceptable, lol, what are you going to do about it apart from accept it and suck it up granddad. Most fans would be perfectly happy if we only scored 12 goals from now until May if they came in 12 scrappy 1-0 wins.

[canarydan23 4,060]

2 hours ago, Ian said:

Simply put, needs must at the moment. If Farke thinks that sacrificing his favoured style of football for part of this season, to give the club something to build on next season, I would understand and accept this. If it persists across the entire season OR we get relegated and/or it continues into next season then the club and his staff should be held fully accountable for the obvious change in philosophy.

The weird thing is, I would have accepted that two seasons ago, but he didn't try anything, he stuck with his favoured approach right the way through to relegation, a 10-game losing streak and a meagre 21 point haul.

However, given the squad we have now created, I don't think it is acceptable. We simply have to stay up this season. I think people are getting a little bit complacent and over-confident with how easy it will be to bounce back, purely because we won the last two attempts at the Championship.

The first title win was immense, but the second title win came after a summer when we only lost Lewis and Godfrey and arguably upgraded them (certainly with Quintilla and Dimi for Lewis). It was a largely unchanged squad.

If we go down this year, we will have a significant rebuild on our hands. It's pretty much a given that Aarons will go, probably Cantwell as well. Normann and Kabak's moves becoming permanent will almost certainly be conditional on us staying in the Premier League, so bye-bye to them. Gilmour and Williams will obviously go back, no great loss to the starting 11 the way things are currently, but definitely holes in the squad. That's already 6 players to replace. And then it is highly unlikely that all of Tzolis, Rashica, Sargent and PLM will stay, so we'll be looking at replacing anything between one or perhaps all four of them as well.

Even if we get the recruitment right, that is a huge turnover of players and a massive job for the incoming players to get used to Farke's way of doing things, which we're told isn't exactly par for the course.

If we're in the Championship next season, I would be much, much less confident that we'll bounce straight back that I was at the start of last season. I genuinely believe that if we want to become established in the Premier League, then we have to stay up this season.

Edited October 18, 2021 by canarydan23