Where are the goals supposed to come from?

[tea total 79]

42 minutes ago, Petriix said:

Yes, the 4-3-3 was awful. The 5-3-2 is defensively solid. That's a good start. But where on earth are we going to find the goals?

All our attacking threat is on the bench. It's the most negative system I've ever seen Norwich play.

...but we had the chances to score...just didn't take them!

Edited October 16, 2021 by tea total

[Jambomo 215]

6 minutes ago, tea total said:

...but we had the chances to score...just didn't take them!

That’s part of the problem though. In this formation you won’t get a lot of the ball or a whole lot of chances. If you have strikers that take 5/6 chances to convert to a goal then unless you hope to get 0-0 draws every week, the system won’t work. I think it said there was 3 shots in target, it’s not going to be good enough at that rate.

Defending well is the absolute basic essential but scoring is up there as well. He’s made progress in stopping the rot but it will be interesting to see 1) how well this holds out against bigger teams such as Chelsea away next week and 2) how he makes the transition from this Uber-defensive set up to something that allows for more attacking football and creating more chances. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Jambomo

[Petriix 2,835]

11 minutes ago, Jambomo said:

That’s part of the problem though. In this formation you won’t get a lot of the ball or a whole lot of chances. If you have strikers that take 5/6 chances to convert to a goal then unless you hope to get 0-0 draws every week, the system won’t work. I think it said there was 3 shots in target, it’s not going to be good enough at that rate.

Defending well is the absolute basic essential but scoring is up there as well. He’s made progress in stopping the rot but it will be interesting to see 1) how well this holds out against bigger teams such as Chelsea away next week and 2) how he makes the transition from this Uber-defensive set up to something that allows for more attacking football and creating more chances. 

We had 3 shots on target. One was a tame header straight at the keeper, one was a speculative punt from 25 yards by our centre back. The one that should have gone in was a calamitous error by their keeper rather than good play on our part.

It was a decent away performance. We let them have the ball and tried to hit them on the break. We were hard to break down but created very little. Exactly what you would expect with that line-up.

I'd be happy playing like this against Chelsea. But we need to be winning against the Burnleys and Brightons of this league. If we'd have won and lost rather than two draws then we'd have one more point.

[Petriix 2,835]

22 minutes ago, tea total said:

...but we had the chances to score...just didn't take them!

We had *a* chance. That came from a defensive error. We created very little.

[tea total 79]

Pukki chance, Sargent x2...Dunno how many chances you think we're going to get realistically at the moment. The minimal chances we get at the moment have to be taken. If one of those chances was taken then we'd have said it was a solid defensive display and we took our chance when it came! Think people want too much! But I do think that the forwards need a goal very very soon!

[Ward 3 372]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

Ok, the plan is starting to emerge: hoof it up there then hunt for scraps. It's actually sort of working. It's not pretty though.

I think this is known as ' The Stoke Way ' 🤣🤣

[hogesar 9,658]

20 minutes ago, Petriix said:

We had *a* chance. That came from a defensive error. We created very little.

No, we had one chance where there wasn't even a goalkeeper. Sargent had another chance which was one on one but his touch was poor and Pukki equally had a one on one which he lobbed the keeper but went wide.

That we kept defensively solid as we did against Burnley but this time created 3 chances (which are generally taken at Prem level,  thats our biggest concern right now) as well as 10 or so other more speculative shots suggest we are able to create with this shape, and this is against a better team than Burnley

 

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

Some excellent chances today which most teams would have taken at least one.

Loving the new style of 'Farkeball' though, keep tight at the back, then lump the ball over the top for Pukki and Sargent to run on to. Certainly overcomes the loss of Emi and his creativity.

Thank God we ditched the tippy tappy playing out the back. It's not pretty but effective but if you want entertainment 'Strictly; is on soon.

Onwards and er upwards.

[hogesar 9,658]

7 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

Some excellent chances today which most teams would have taken at least one.

Loving the new style of 'Farkeball' though, keep tight at the back, then lump the ball over the top for Pukki and Sargent to run on to. Certainly overcomes the loss of Emi and his creativity.

Thank God we ditched the tippy tappy playing out the back. It's not pretty but effective but if you want entertainment 'Strictly; is on soon.

Onwards and er upwards.

We still passed out from the back and had some good moves from it, but often Brighton were pressing extremely high so the obvious out ball was long, Sargent made good diagonal runs.

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

We still passed out from the back and had some good moves from it, but often Brighton were pressing extremely high so the obvious out ball was long, Sargent made good diagonal runs.

It's good we're using that long ball though, earlier this season we would have still tried to pass through a high pressing team. We're learning not to create other teams chances for them by giving the ball away deep in our own half. Enjoying the more direct style.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

14 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

I really don’t understand the negativity. Can some really not see what Farke is doing, and has been doing for the last year or so?

Last season in the championship was a definite target on being better defensively. We played to our strengths with the formation and bossed the league. This season is a continuation of trying to be tough to beat. The 4-3-3 was to suit the midfielders we had (and which we quickly realised wasn’t enough/or we were just being patient and waiting for our man) and now, to stop the rot, the system has changed and we’ve stopped the sloppy goals that were all too regular in the first games. Farke can’t win - he doesn’t change it and he’s naive, he changes it and we should’ve stuck to ‘our’ formation.
 

Today was far from perfect BUT there’s clear improvement. Chances were made, we grew in confidence and were playing some good stuff. Had Sargent scored one of his chances we’d be talking of a really good overall performance.

So I’m not ecstatic but satisfied because I can see what’s being tried. We were the laughing stock of the league and sooo easy to play against. That some fans expect us to just be able to flip that on it’s head and be defensively solid and score goals, is baffling. It will take a bit of time but the goals will come. They should have today (which is a big improvement on the previous game) but that they didn’t and we didn’t lose is still a massive improvement.

OTBC

Farke is doing nothing more than packing the midfield and defence as a panic measure because he can’t coach them to defend properly in a back 4 and because once again we didn’t buy a proper holding midfielder:

Yes it’s made us more defensively solid (having 9 men behind the ball will do that) but at the expense of almost everything else good about our game/style of play and at the risk of wasting a great deal of attacking talent now stuck on the bench.

ee probably have no choice now but to persist snd try snd evolve into something more threatening but let’s be clear Farke (and to a degree Webber) has made a complete pigs ear of the first quarter of this season. 
 

[komakino 272]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Farke is doing nothing more than packing the midfield and defence as a panic measure because he can’t coach them to defend properly in a back 4 and because once again we didn’t buy a proper holding midfielder:

Yes it’s made us more defensively solid (having 9 men behind the ball will do that) but at the expense of almost everything else good about our game/style of play and at the risk of wasting a great deal of attacking talent now stuck on the bench.

ee probably have no choice now but to persist snd try snd evolve into something more threatening but let’s be clear Farke (and to a degree Webber) has made a complete pigs ear of the first quarter of this season. 
 

Can't disagree with that. 

As a fanbase, we're too easily pleased when there is nothing to be pleased about. 

[tea total 79]

1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Farke is doing nothing more than packing the midfield and defence as a panic measure because he can’t coach them to defend properly in a back 4 and because once again we didn’t buy a proper holding midfielder:

Yes it’s made us more defensively solid (having 9 men behind the ball will do that) but at the expense of almost everything else good about our game/style of play and at the risk of wasting a great deal of attacking talent now stuck on the bench.

ee probably have no choice now but to persist snd try snd evolve into something more threatening but let’s be clear Farke (and to a degree Webber) has made a complete pigs ear of the first quarter of this season. 
 

I really don't know what some supporters want! It's clear that the great football we've played over the past few seasons isn't going to bring success in the "promise land" that is the premier league. Farke has to now find a different approach...It's called evolving! If you think that we can blow teams away with attacking front foot football then you may have to wait a while. We've stopped conceding, we are now beginning to create so what's the problem??? Look at the bigger picture. Way too much negativity on here at times.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

12 minutes ago, tea total said:

I really don't know what some supporters want! It's clear that the great football we've played over the past few seasons isn't going to bring success in the "promise land" that is the premier league. Farke has to now find a different approach...It's called evolving! If you think that we can blow teams away with attacking front foot football then you may have to wait a while. We've stopped conceding, we are now beginning to create so what's the problem??? Look at the bigger picture. Way too much negativity on here at times.

It’s really not clear at all. Good football and not making defensive errors are not mutually exclusive.

The big picture is 2 points from a possible 24 and 18 defeats from our last 20 premier league games. 
 

Yes we are getting better defensively which is good. 

[komakino 272]

5 minutes ago, tea total said:

I really don't know what some supporters want! It's clear that the great football we've played over the past few seasons isn't going to bring success in the "promise land" that is the premier league. Farke has to now find a different approach...It's called evolving! If you think that we can blow teams away with attacking front foot football then you may have to wait a while. We've stopped conceding, we are now beginning to create so what's the problem??? Look at the bigger picture. Way too much negativity on here at times.

Nobody is taking about 'blowing teams away', but we live in a results business and Farke doesn't get results at the top level. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. He hasn't and isn't 'evolving' the squad, he's almost starting again and lost all momentum from the previous season. 

All the evidence so far suggests that we will get the worst top flight points total in our history and the worst goals total in our history. I said at the start of the season that I couldn't see where the goals are going to come from and so far I'm right. 

Five at the back is fine against Chelsea, but not at home against Brighton. Farke picked at team not to lose, so it that sense he got it right - but we want a team to win. And we need to win games like these to stay in the EPL, though that will not be of interest to some of our fanbase and our hapless majority shareholders. 

I want Norwich City to stay in the EPL and anyone who shares that view has every right to be critical of the club. 

 

[Mullet 293]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

I genuinely have no idea how this lineup is supposed to work. How are we going to carry any attacking threat?

This is the least creative Norwich team I've ever seen. Reassure me. Tell me what the actual plan is. Where are the goals supposed to be coming from?

I think Farke's main aim after Watford Everton was to stop gifting goals away. After Everton we were already getting cut adrift. Two clean sheets has given him something to build on but we don't have a goal scorer at this level. We are kind of now witnessing a slow death this season rather than the quick death of the previous 5 games.

[horsefly 4,298]

16 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

I really don’t understand the negativity. Can some really not see what Farke is doing, and has been doing for the last year or so?

Last season in the championship was a definite target on being better defensively. We played to our strengths with the formation and bossed the league. This season is a continuation of trying to be tough to beat. The 4-3-3 was to suit the midfielders we had (and which we quickly realised wasn’t enough/or we were just being patient and waiting for our man) and now, to stop the rot, the system has changed and we’ve stopped the sloppy goals that were all too regular in the first games. Farke can’t win - he doesn’t change it and he’s naive, he changes it and we should’ve stuck to ‘our’ formation.
 

Today was far from perfect BUT there’s clear improvement. Chances were made, we grew in confidence and were playing some good stuff. Had Sargent scored one of his chances we’d be talking of a really good overall performance.

So I’m not ecstatic but satisfied because I can see what’s being tried. We were the laughing stock of the league and sooo easy to play against. That some fans expect us to just be able to flip that on it’s head and be defensively solid and score goals, is baffling. It will take a bit of time but the goals will come. They should have today (which is a big improvement on the previous game) but that they didn’t and we didn’t lose is still a massive improvement.

OTBC

Spot on assessment!

[horsefly 4,298]

18 hours ago, Petriix said:

I genuinely have no idea how this lineup is supposed to work. How are we going to carry any attacking threat?

This is the least creative Norwich team I've ever seen. Reassure me. Tell me what the actual plan is. Where are the goals supposed to be coming from?

Your comment would have purchase if it wasn't for the fact that we created 3 very clear cut chances. That's where the goals will come from if and when when our striking players find their shooting boots.

[tea total 79]

17 minutes ago, komakino said:

Nobody is taking about 'blowing teams away', but we live in a results business and Farke doesn't get results at the top level. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. He hasn't and isn't 'evolving' the squad, he's almost starting again and lost all momentum from the previous season. 

All the evidence so far suggests that we will get the worst top flight points total in our history and the worst goals total in our history. I said at the start of the season that I couldn't see where the goals are going to come from and so far I'm right. 

Five at the back is fine against Chelsea, but not at home against Brighton. Farke picked at team not to lose, so it that sense he got it right - but we want a team to win. And we need to win games like these to stay in the EPL, though that will not be of interest to some of our fanbase and our hapless majority shareholders. 

I want Norwich City to stay in the EPL and anyone who shares that view has every right to be critical of the club. 

 

Has Farke been given a chance? Look what he's having to work with!!! Teams like Brighton already have a solid foundation to work from...we don't! And yes he may have picked a team not to lose but we had to stop leaking goals. And the default system was five at the back but it did change at times during the game. You could argue that we were defending with a four with Aarrons etc being detached from the defensive unit at times. I agree that we lack confidence up front though and if you are relying on Idah as one of your players to score in this league then we are in a bad way. Sargent and Pukki need to score pretty soon else we will struggle.

[interwebme 52]

16 hours ago, Petriix said:

I'm not wrong, am I?

35% of possession 

3 shots on target 

That would be ok against one of the big clubs. A decent away performance. Keep it tight and hope for something on the break. 

But we didn't look like winning. Our only real chance came from a mistake. Plenty of endeavour but no real intent.

I'll reiterate: in this system, how are we going to score goals?

When your desperation is so bad you reply to yourself 2 hours later 😂

Edited October 17, 2021 by interwebme

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

19 hours ago, Petriix said:

I genuinely have no idea how this lineup is supposed to work. How are we going to carry any attacking threat?

This is the least creative Norwich team I've ever seen. Reassure me. Tell me what the actual plan is. Where are the goals supposed to be coming from?

At the moment I’d say the bench but they never get more than 10 mins each so probably not likely to do much in their brief cameos or if they come on at all. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

14 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Some excellent chances today which most teams would have taken at least one.

Loving the new style of 'Farkeball' though, keep tight at the back, then lump the ball over the top for Pukki and Sargent to run on to. Certainly overcomes the loss of Emi and his creativity.

Thank God we ditched the tippy tappy playing out the back. It's not pretty but effective but if you want entertainment 'Strictly; is on soon.

Onwards and er upwards.

You’re loving hoofball? Oh god what have we become. In the words of Brian clough “if god wanted football to be played in the air, he’d of put grass in the sky” 

[horsefly 4,298]

27 minutes ago, komakino said:

Nobody is taking about 'blowing teams away', but we live in a results business and Farke doesn't get results at the top level. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. He hasn't and isn't 'evolving' the squad, he's almost starting again and lost all momentum from the previous season. 

All the evidence so far suggests that we will get the worst top flight points total in our history and the worst goals total in our history. I said at the start of the season that I couldn't see where the goals are going to come from and so far I'm right. 

Five at the back is fine against Chelsea, but not at home against Brighton. Farke picked at team not to lose, so it that sense he got it right - but we want a team to win. And we need to win games like these to stay in the EPL, though that will not be of interest to some of our fanbase and our hapless majority shareholders. 

I want Norwich City to stay in the EPL and anyone who shares that view has every right to be critical of the club. 

 

Any one of the 3 clear cut chances taken yesterday and we would have won, that's where the victory would have come from. Frankly you do yourself no favours by claiming, "And we need to win games like these to stay in the EPL, though that will not be of interest to some of our fanbase and our hapless majority shareholders". It's fine to disagree about the tactics being employed to achieve success, but to suggest that there is anyone at the club or among the fanbase who is not "interested" in achieving success is palpable nonsense and unnecessarily insulting.

[Capt. Pants 4,227]

7 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

You’re loving hoofball? Oh god what have we become. In the words of Brian clough “if god wanted football to be played in the air, he’d of put grass in the sky” 

I hate the tippy tappy crap that doesn't get us over the halfway line. Trying to out play teams with a high press is suicide in this league.

A simple ball over the top (hoof from Gibson) makes teams think twice about camping in our half. 

Not pretty I agree, but needs must as we don't have the quality to play through teams.

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

6 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I hate the tippy tappy crap that doesn't get us over the halfway line. Trying to out play teams with a high press is suicide in this league.

A simple ball over the top (hoof from Gibson) makes teams think twice about camping in our half. 

Not pretty I agree, but needs must as we don't have the quality to play through teams.

 

So we just abandon how we’ve plaid for the last 4 season because we lose a couple of games? I go or watch to be entertained and sometimes that means falling on your sword in my view.

 

I agree about tapping it around at the back but launching it up the other end is not the answer in my book. Also a waste of players playing 5 at the back when most teams play with 1 forward and wingers every game we’ve played with that formation so far our full backs have had massive problems with overlaps and if the midfield go out to deal with that we get huge space outside the 18 yard box. 

[Block Y Seat 176 80]

To survive in the Premiership the Pukki/ Sergent has to provide the goals. Both missed chances yesterday but it was clear to me when Pukki had possession in the Brighton penalty area that “sixth sense” to find your partner in space was lacking. No blame here as it’s their dynamic to resolve.That can only be improved in training and game time but at least there are positives. 
 

At 85 minutes watching the game we seemed mentally any physically spent so a point against a team that was 4th in the league and didn’t score in that period, as they have done to others, is a positive. Positive atmosphere also at final whistle unlike the previous game and on Pinkun website.😬

[hogesar 9,658]

16 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

I agree there were positives and real effort from the lads. I just don’t see anything yet that suggests we will be competitive this season. Forget the next win- the next goal feels almost as big now! 

So were we not competitive against Burnley and Brighton? Both have had multiple Premier league seasons consecutively to strengthen, one had started the season very well in 6th place. 

I guess it's hard for people to accept when the goals don't go in. Had we had the exact same performance but Sargent had hit it slightly harder there wouldnt be any of the 'not creating' 'most negative ever Norwich side' rubbish thats been spouted. Equally had Sargent scored his one on one, or Pukki his, none of this would be said.

Sometimes you have to be able to separate the tactical element of the game from poor finishing. Just because one is right doesn't automatically make the other.

Farke said it perfectly post match. We can be in control of ensuring our performances improve but we can't guarantee we get the result, football isn't that simple.

[hogesar 9,658]

24 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

You’re loving hoofball? Oh god what have we become. In the words of Brian clough “if god wanted football to be played in the air, he’d of put grass in the sky” 

We didnt play hoof ball at all. The stats back that up. We mixed it up more and tried to break the press with balls over the top for Sargent,  that generally worked,  but if people could stop making things up it'd be much easier to have a sensible debate.

[hogesar 9,658]

For what it's worth,  when Cantwell is back I would like to see us try 4-2-3-1 again. I think Hanley and Kabak are capable. I think Normann plus PLM could potentially hold as a two. 

I'm not sure if we will see it soon though. Ignoring Chelsea, if we perform in this formation in the same way against Leeds, defend well but actually take a chance or two I can't see anyone wanting to move away from this shape. Had we took our chances today this thread wouldn't even exist. At the moment, whilst I like @Petriix posts,  he's sort of blaming the tactical shape and formation for poor finishing with this thread.

[komakino 272]

59 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Any one of the 3 clear cut chances taken yesterday and we would have won, that's where the victory would have come from. Frankly you do yourself no favours by claiming, "And we need to win games like these to stay in the EPL, though that will not be of interest to some of our fanbase and our hapless majority shareholders". It's fine to disagree about the tactics being employed to achieve success, but to suggest that there is anyone at the club or among the fanbase who is not "interested" in achieving success is palpable nonsense and unnecessarily insulting.

I've met "Norwich Fans" who did not want us to go up and still want us to go down. I've met Norwich fans who did not renew their season tickets in the past when we went up and said they would renew again once back in the second tier. I'm in a job where I meet a lot of local people and therefore Norwich City fans and all too often there are those that do not want EPL football. I can understand preferring The Championship as a spectacle, but wanting the club you support not to go up/go down is beyond comprehension. 

Then again, should we be surprised? 

Delia has made her views on the EPL perfectly clear  - remember the infamous Times piece in 2016 - and my spouse worked at CR a few years back and it in her opinion there was not the desire for EPL football - maybe because it exposed their financial limitations? 

My view is is the 'Deliaisation' of the club has got a certain section of the fanbase - it's debatable how much - into her parochial nonsense and accepting second best all too often. This season looks like another brief flirtation with the EPL and back into the comfort zone of The Championship which will please some - they do exist - because I've met some of them. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by komakino