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1 minute ago, 1902 said:

My major quibble with that would be that given the carrousel of managers, most clubs throw out a 60 year old white manager every 12 months. 

its understandable to a degree... how many supporters/owners demand an 'experienced' manager. 

But added to the mix, its not just a British problem. But how many Bame managers exist in Europe. Many of the PL managers seem to come from Spain, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, France. 

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29 minutes ago, 1902 said:

My major quibble with that would be that given the carrousel of managers, most clubs throw out a 60 year old white manager every 12 months. 

A professional playing career lasts 18-35

A professional managerial career might last 35-70

That's 17 years, versus 35 years.

Its more about how many managers exit the profession / retire / become unemployable isn't it? To shrink the pool? 

Looking at like 4000 professional players in England right now, and 92 managers jobs, regardless of colour, and sometimes former players sound like they are a bit entitled - Sol Campbell was one of them. The "pathway" is to get a coaching job, then first team coaching job, then assistant manager or technical director, like Tim Sherwood did. And even then, where's Tim Sherwood now? 

He's got a point about Lampard and Gerrard but they are talisman, natural born leaders, and I don't think Sol Campbell ever was. When it comes to Sol Campbell he seems barely able to hold a coherent conversation

One black player who I did have that charisma and natural ability to lead an inspire, as well as an obvious footballing intelligence, and I think it is a shame didn't go into management, was Dion Dublin. Could really have seen him in the job. But guess what, he's in a boardroom instead... the board of a professional football club, which is also good to see. 

 

 

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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17 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I saw this on TV . He referenced Lampard and Gerrard walking into top coaching jobs with big playing budgets  . And Sol Campbell starting at the bottom with Macclesfield and Southend. 
Cam spoke very well - an articulate guy. 
 

I recall the night the Leeds player abused him. That was swept under the carpet from memory .

Sol Campbell is perhaps not the best example as he has proved quite clearly in his managerial career why big clubs didn't give him a chance. 

I'm really not sure about racial bias when it comes to managerial and coaching jobs. Most owners are so mercenary that I doubt they give a damn as long as someone gives them a winning team.  

There is clearly no bias in player recruitment so before I made a judgement I'd like to know how many black players have made the effort to obtain coaching qualifications. I think the answer to that may be low which is a huge shame. If it is the case that they don't bother then the question becomes why they don't. The answer to that may be that they don't see the point which is depressing but would make this problem a self fulfilling prophecy. 

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18 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Well, I doubt his skin colour has much to do it with it I would imagine his lack of experence as a coach probably has more of an impact

I don't know the answer for certain but would hazard a guess that he percentage of non white managers in the Football League/ EPL is lower than the percentage of non white players. If I am correct, is there another explanation that you would like to suggest other than discrimination?

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4 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Sol Campbell is perhaps not the best example as he has proved quite clearly in his managerial career why big clubs didn't give him a chance. 

I'm really not sure about racial bias when it comes to managerial and coaching jobs. Most owners are so mercenary that I doubt they give a damn as long as someone gives them a winning team.  

There is clearly no bias in player recruitment so before I made a judgement I'd like to know how many black players have made the effort to obtain coaching qualifications. I think the answer to that may be low which is a huge shame. If it is the case that they don't bother then the question becomes why they don't. The answer to that may be that they don't see the point which is depressing but would make this problem a self fulfilling prophecy. 

I don't disagree with this.

It would be good to see how many BAME players gain their badges. 

Whether Campbell is or isn't a good manager is open to debate, but Jerome made a specific point that Lampard was given a big budget (and failed - I added this bit!) whereas  Campbell could only get a job with Macclesfield. Both I assume had the required pro licence and both played to a decent level. If Campbell had have been given the apparent competitive advantage that Frank Lampard's Derby had , his CV may have read differently, but we will never know. 

(I  just googled and it seems that Gerrard got the Rangers job before he had gained  level 5 qualification which is interesting too) 

 

As with most , its a complex subject . 

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30 minutes ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I don't disagree with this.

It would be good to see how many BAME players gain their badges. 

Whether Campbell is or isn't a good manager is open to debate, but Jerome made a specific point that Lampard was given a big budget (and failed - I added this bit!) whereas  Campbell could only get a job with Macclesfield. Both I assume had the required pro licence and both played to a decent level. If Campbell had have been given the apparent competitive advantage that Frank Lampard's Derby had , his CV may have read differently, but we will never know. 

(I  just googled and it seems that Gerrard got the Rangers job before he had gained  level 5 qualification which is interesting too) 

 

As with most , its a complex subject . 

Perhaps Patrick Vieira at Palace may help. I hope so. I've seen Campbell once or twice on TV and wasn't impressed.

I think Lampard was fast tracked by Chelsea as they discovered he had an IQ of over 160 which puts him in the top 0.1% of the population. He may of course still turn out to be a success and I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the England job one day. 

The other thing that would help is having black people in senior positions elsewhere in football. The current PFA guy is hopeless and I think Jermaine Jenas would be the best person for that role, regardless of colour or ethnicity. 

PS. I was already angry about Gerrard before you told me that!  All I can say is that he and Rangers are perfect for each other......

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10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Perhaps Patrick Vieira at Palace may help. I hope so. I've seen Campbell once or twice on TV and wasn't impressed.

I think Lampard was fast tracked by Chelsea as they discovered he had an IQ of over 160 which puts him in the top 0.1% of the population. He may of course still turn out to be a success and I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the England job one day. 

The other thing that would help is having black people in senior positions elsewhere in football. The current PFA guy is hopeless and I think Jermaine Jenas would be the best person for that role, regardless of colour or ethnicity. 

PS. I was already angry about Gerrard before you told me that!  All I can say is that he and Rangers are perfect for each other......

Its important we don't focus on individual situations either.

Sol Campbell could interview terribly. His limited punditry never impressed me.

Lampard could interview fantastically. He also had other advantages. A bigger name than Sol in English Football and on top of that, family with lots of contacts who also happened to be an ex manager.

I did read about the lack of black ex footballers actually taking their accredited coaching courses. That needs to be the first hurdle to overcome and if its down to previously held views that their race would stop them getting a job out of it then it needs players to be educated before they retire that these pathways are available to them.

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4 hours ago, hogesar said:

if its down to previously held views that their race would stop them getting a job out of it then it needs players to be educated before they retire that these pathways are available to them.

Are they though? 

https://www.canaries.co.uk/football-staff

https://www.canaries.co.uk/club/fans/academy-staff

Devil's advocate, but since Adrian Forbes left to get a more senior role at Luton, do we have any black coaches? 

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What is it that drives the difference between playing and coaching though? If the people running football clubs are all racist, why are they happy to employ Campbell as a player, but not as a manager? It makes no business sense to let talented black men be players, but not talented black men be managers?

Talented players win games. Talented managers win games. Winning games breeds success and earns money. So why the discrepancy?

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2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

What is it that drives the difference between playing and coaching though? If the people running football clubs are all racist, why are they happy to employ Campbell as a player, but not as a manager? It makes no business sense to let talented black men be players, but not talented black men be managers?

Talented players win games. Talented managers win games. Winning games breeds success and earns money. So why the discrepancy?

For similar reasons to those forty years ago when there were few black footballers in the UK, chiefly visibility. If no-one playing football, or managing football clubs now, looks like you, you are unlikely to try and do it, and people are unlikely to consider you to do it. Which is why players like Cyrille Regis and Laurie Cunningham were such important trailblazers in their time and the few black managers in the game are trailblazers now.

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On 09/10/2021 at 11:20, Badger said:

I don't know the answer for certain but would hazard a guess that he percentage of non white managers in the Football League/ EPL is lower than the percentage of non white players. If I am correct, is there another explanation that you would like to suggest other than discrimination?

It probably is low but your assumption is flawed. What’s the average age of a manager? Then go and look at what the ethnic diversity of English football was when they were playing.

The ethnic diversity of the current players is only relevant to compare to management diversity when they reach management age. These things don’t change instantly, it needs a pipeline of players>coaches>managers.

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9 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Broadening the debate a little, am I right in thinking that the number of black spectators is still proportionally very low?

BAME people in general are low earners, particularly in London where living costs are high. Perhaps not surprising that they can't afford to pay £80 to watch Chelsea or Arsenal. 

That is very much a generalisation! 

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3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

BAME people in general are low earners, particularly in London where living costs are high. Perhaps not surprising that they can't afford to pay £80 to watch Chelsea or Arsenal. 

That is very much a generalisation! 

Woah, I feel like you should perhaps have done a little bit of cursory research here.

Depends very much on which ethnic classification we are talking about. You are correct if we're talking "black" but you specifically say BAME. 

abcd.JPG.88a3db70e2ae015bdeac043fe8fa0ec0.JPG

When sorting the above by % of households earning £104k a year or more, 'White British' are mid-table! 

I've been to a few Indian weddings in Leicester, and the supercars they turn up in aren't hired for the day (the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities also turn up to weddings in supercars, typically hired for the day).

 

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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44 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Woah, I feel like you should perhaps have done a little bit of cursory research here.

Depends very much on which ethnic classification we are talking about. You are correct if we're talking "black" but you specifically say BAME. 

abcd.JPG.88a3db70e2ae015bdeac043fe8fa0ec0.JPG

When sorting the above by % of households earning £104k a year or more, 'White British' are mid-table! 

I've been to a few Indian weddings in Leicester, and the supercars they turn up in aren't hired for the day (the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities also turn up to weddings in supercars, typically hired for the day).

 

 

Have nots always whinge about not having themselves. It's just that certain have nots look to blame others rather than looking at themselves.

 

The UK is the land of opportunity for those willing to work for it.

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9 hours ago, Monty13 said:

It probably is low but your assumption is flawed. What’s the average age of a manager? Then go and look at what the ethnic diversity of English football was when they were playing.

The ethnic diversity of the current players is only relevant to compare to management diversity when they reach management age. These things don’t change instantly, it needs a pipeline of players>coaches>managers.

It is a legitimate line of enquiry but I suspect that it will produce similar results. British football has been pretty ethnically diverse for at least 30 years. These players will now be largely mid 50s to early 60s which is above the average age of managers.

https://www.national-football-teams.com/country/59/1991/England.html

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/trainer/pokalwettbewerb/GB1

 

Edited by Badger
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A more useful comparison would be that between the % of BAME coaches with the requisite qualifications who are in employment and the % of white coaches with the requisite qualifications who are in employment.

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On 09/10/2021 at 12:05, dylanisabaddog said:

Perhaps Patrick Vieira at Palace may help. I hope so. I've seen Campbell once or twice on TV and wasn't impressed.

I think Lampard was fast tracked by Chelsea as they discovered he had an IQ of over 160 which puts him in the top 0.1% of the population. He may of course still turn out to be a success and I wouldn't be surprised to see him get the England job one day. 

The other thing that would help is having black people in senior positions elsewhere in football. The current PFA guy is hopeless and I think Jermaine Jenas would be the best person for that role, regardless of colour or ethnicity. 

PS. I was already angry about Gerrard before you told me that!  All I can say is that he and Rangers are perfect for each other......

Jermaine Jenas is probably a prine example of the sort of guy who could have been a manager. A top player, very eloquent. Clearly intelligent. Yet he's gone straight into the media rather than pursuing a career in coaching. I find it hard to believe that some club would not have given him an opportuinity had he sought it. 

The truth is it will take time for the number of black coaches and managers to catch up with the demographics of the playing population but in time it will as more and more players retire from playing and look to the next stages of their career. I don't think the Gerrard and Lampard comparison is particularly helpful. Those players were leaders and national icons and probably fairly obvious candicates for coaching or management. You could say the same about John Terry to a degree although he is learning the ropes. And Wayne Rooney even though he's perhaps less obvious a candidate. As has been said, Viera and Henry, similar players in terms of their status to Lampard and Gerrard have been given management opportunities, as was Vincent Kompany and back in the day players like Ruud Gullit. I really think football is the sort of industry where if you are a good manager, clubs will employ you regardless so desperate are they for success.

Cameron Jerome was a leader for us on the pitch who always conducted himself well and although he always appeared quite quiet off it I cannot see any reason why he would not make an excellent coach and manager.

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