Jerome

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

Pinkun article with him speaking and saying he is fearful for his job prospects as a coach etc due to the colour of his skin.

If we're talking about coaching roles etc, then in terms of addressing this we are speaking about a very small number of people surely.

Who, at any one club, would be in charge of appointing (for someone in their initial post) what would be a rather low-key appointment? Technical Director? Director of Football? Possibly manager? Unlikely owners would be too involved. Imagine board members would have to sign off.

At any one club we're talking about a small number of individuals and 92 league clubs.

If candidates are being unfairly discriminated against based on the colour of their skin alone, then it shouldnt be too hard to find the culprits. The whole thing would surely be transparent.

Jerome's skin colour has not prevented him from forging a successful playing career, his football has done the talking. He could find prejudice in the way of getting an opportunity, but success is money, and I cant imagine too many money men would ignore a top coach/manager on the basis of the colour of their skin if they stand to make money from it.

With the small numbers of individuals in charge of appointments, this process could easily be made very transparent.

[cambridgeshire canary 7,778]

Well, I doubt his skin colour has much to do it with it I would imagine his lack of experence as a coach probably has more of an impact

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,758]

13 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Pinkun article with him speaking and saying he is fearful for his job prospects as a coach etc due to the colour of his skin.

If we're talking about coaching roles etc, then in terms of addressing this we are speaking about a very small number of people surely.

Who, at any one club, would be in charge of appointing (for someone in their initial post) what would be a rather low-key appointment? Technical Director? Director of Football? Possibly manager? Unlikely owners would be too involved. Imagine board members would have to sign off.

At any one club we're talking about a small number of individuals and 92 league clubs.

If candidates are being unfairly discriminated against based on the colour of their skin alone, then it shouldnt be too hard to find the culprits. The whole thing would surely be transparent.

Jerome's skin colour has not prevented him from forging a successful playing career, his football has done the talking. He could find prejudice in the way of getting an opportunity, but success is money, and I cant imagine too many money men would ignore a top coach/manager on the basis of the colour of their skin if they stand to make money from it.

With the small numbers of individuals in charge of appointments, this process could easily be made very transparent.

I saw this on TV . He referenced Lampard and Gerrard walking into top coaching jobs with big playing budgets  . And Sol Campbell starting at the bottom with Macclesfield and Southend. 
Cam spoke very well - an articulate guy. 
 

I recall the night the Leeds player abused him. That was swept under the carpet from memory .

Edited October 8, 2021 by Graham Paddons Beard

[Chelm Canary 404]

There was a time when it would have been very difficult for him but not so much now I would like to think. We've come a long way. 

Having said that I don't believe racism will ever be completely wiped out unfortunately. There will always be some. 

I can see this topic going about 20 pages long so I won't be commenting beyond this. 

 

Edited October 8, 2021 by Chelm Canary

[Baracouda 47]

coaching and management, I think is all very hit and miss. How many 'up and coming' managers have disappeared from the game in the last decade aka Lambert. Some get a job it goes well and everyone is tipping them for the top and then move to a side like Villa, Everton, Tottenham where the expectations are so high and realistically unattainable then have their careers destroyed.

Few managers/coaches have the 20 year reign in the game (at least at the very top). 

As for cam's comments about Lampard and Gerrard, sure most of that is to do with their reputation and ability to sell a plan in an interview setting and/or having the right agent to open doors.

[If wed kept Howie.. 298]

i love Cam Jam... but i saw him being interviewed, but he lost credibility by mentioning Sol Campbell..

I agree with that he is saying, but Sol Campbell? is he really a good example? I thought the view was that Sol isn't very serious about being a manager, just like he wasn't serious about being the major of London..

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

23 minutes ago, Baracouda said:

coaching and management, I think is all very hit and miss. How many 'up and coming' managers have disappeared from the game in the last decade aka Lambert. Some get a job it goes well and everyone is tipping them for the top and then move to a side like Villa, Everton, Tottenham where the expectations are so high and realistically unattainable then have their careers destroyed.

Few managers/coaches have the 20 year reign in the game (at least at the very top). 

As for cam's comments about Lampard and Gerrard, sure most of that is to do with their reputation and ability to sell a plan in an interview setting and/or having the right agent to open doors.

 

We all thought Mike Walker was the chosen one. So did Everton. We hailed him as the messiah on his return. He wasnt.

My opinion on Walker now is that he inherited a very good squad who most likely did their own thing. A bad manager could have scuppered that, but I think that period was about the players as a group rather than Walker's talent and he was just rather fortunate.

Lambert I do think was a very good manager, but Villa was the wrong move for him. He actually did a good job there under the circumstances, but as always, Villa's expectations were unrealistic.

I think he is guilty of having taken the wrong jobs. Though we all tried to tell him this at the time, but he had to have his big move.

 

Lots of clubs fall into the trap of thinking great footballer means great manager. In the same way players who were once youth products at Man U will be able to trade off that their entire career (some desperate team with no money will always take a punt) clubs will continue to make great players managers, in the hope of stumbling on the next big thing.

Gerrard and Lampard traded off their reputation and the hope this would command respect from players, fans, pundits and potential new signings alike.

Sol Campbell was a high profile player but he was no Thierry Henry (players wouldnt say 'Wow, Sol Campbell's on the phone!')

Campbell has also proven, like John Barnes, that he wasnt a very good manager. There are plenty of high profile white players Im sure you could cite as having to start in the lower leagues for instance (Paul Lambert anyone?)

[The Great Mass Debater 1,202]

36 minutes ago, Baracouda said:

coaching and management, I think is all very hit and miss. How many 'up and coming' managers have disappeared from the game in the last decade aka Lambert. Some get a job it goes well and everyone is tipping them for the top and then move to a side like Villa, Everton, Tottenham where the expectations are so high and realistically unattainable then have their careers destroyed.

Few managers/coaches have the 20 year reign in the game (at least at the very top). 

As for cam's comments about Lampard and Gerrard, sure most of that is to do with their reputation and ability to sell a plan in an interview setting and/or having the right agent to open doors.

Tim Sherwood anyone?

[By Hook or Ian crook 943]

I think Sol Campbell was a very good defender I think Cam Jam makes good points about his experience at getting into management. At the end of the day there are what 2 managers of colour in the 92 football league clubs. that’s a shocking number given there must be about a 40% make up of the player pool at elite level. Also the ratio of managers of colour is well under what the national average would expect it to be on the basis of the ethnic make up of this country. At some point in the progress of these folks career there is obviously a barrier in terms of racism be that conscious or unconscious. Simply by the fact that clubs see less minority managers, clubs are less likely to take a chance on one when compared to a white manager. Unconscious bias or racism is a huge factor in this country as whole on many subjects. 

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,758]

43 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

I think Sol Campbell was a very good defender I think Cam Jam makes good points about his experience at getting into management. At the end of the day there are what 2 managers of colour in the 92 football league clubs. that’s a shocking number given there must be about a 40% make up of the player pool at elite level. Also the ratio of managers of colour is well under what the national average would expect it to be on the basis of the ethnic make up of this country. At some point in the progress of these folks career there is obviously a barrier in terms of racism be that conscious or unconscious. Simply by the fact that clubs see less minority managers, clubs are less likely to take a chance on one when compared to a white manager. Unconscious bias or racism is a huge factor in this country as whole on many subjects. 

I think this is the point. Give Campbell the same players and budget that Lampard had at Derby , and he may have got Derby into the playoffs . 

[JB 138]

If he has the credentials for a coaching role of his choice, he'll get it.

[Graham Paddons Beard 2,758]

7 minutes ago, JB said:

If he has the credentials for a coaching role of his choice, he'll get it.

I think they mostly all have the Pro Licence don’t they? 

[robert choice 24]

Just more emotional blackmail.

 

Disappointing but all too familiar in this country nowadays.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

At the end of the day there are what 2 managers of colour in the 92 football league clubs. 

Would help if you'd bothered to read the email, which says 7 BAME managers in the top four divisions at current.

 

[norfolkngood 1,172]

2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

We all thought Mike Walker was the chosen one. So did Everton. We hailed him as the messiah on his return. He wasnt.

My opinion on Walker now is that he inherited a very good squad who most likely did their own thing. A bad manager could have scuppered that, but I think that period was about the players as a group rather than Walker's talent and he was just rather fortunate.

Lambert I do think was a very good manager, but Villa was the wrong move for him. He actually did a good job there under the circumstances, but as always, Villa's expectations were unrealistic.

I think he is guilty of having taken the wrong jobs. Though we all tried to tell him this at the time, but he had to have his big move.

 

Lots of clubs fall into the trap of thinking great footballer means great manager. In the same way players who were once youth products at Man U will be able to trade off that their entire career (some desperate team with no money will always take a punt) clubs will continue to make great players managers, in the hope of stumbling on the next big thing.

Gerrard and Lampard traded off their reputation and the hope this would command respect from players, fans, pundits and potential new signings alike.

Sol Campbell was a high profile player but he was no Thierry Henry (players wouldnt say 'Wow, Sol Campbell's on the phone!')

Campbell has also proven, like John Barnes, that he wasnt a very good manager. There are plenty of high profile white players Im sure you could cite as having to start in the lower leagues for instance (Paul Lambert anyone?)

Good Post i makes me think of Farke 

is Championship is Level ?

will he move on to great things ? i

is this the Best he will ever do get us up take us down ?

is this  his time like Lambert ? 

I Have not seen in the PL Farke Turn lesser players into a Team hard to beat so i Believe this is his Level great in Champs Poor in PL I Doubt he will go right to the top 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Tim Sherwood

Tim Sherwood took a job as assistant first team coach at Spurs in 2008, progressed to Technical Director in 2012 and got a crack at the managers job in 2013.

So there was 5 years of work experience and progression at Spurs leading up to that.

 

[CDMullins 498]

4 hours ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Well, I doubt his skin colour has much to do it with it I would imagine his lack of experence as a coach probably has more of an impact

Gerrard and Lampard on the other hand...

[Midlands Yellow 4,682]

Henry and Vieira as top, top players walked straight into decent managerial jobs too. 

[cambridgeshire canary 7,778]

24 minutes ago, CDMullins said:

Gerrard and Lampard on the other hand...

Obvious big name bias

[JB 138]

2 hours ago, Graham Paddons Beard said:

I think they mostly all have the Pro Licence don’t they? 

If he wants to do that role, and that's what's needed, then as long as he has it, he's as much chance as anyone else. 

[Michael Starr 571]

Interesting to hear opinions of white middle aged men on the subject but there's a reason why we aren't seeing more black coaches in our game. Racism is still rife within the sport (and the world) unfortunately.

[JB 138]

11 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

Interesting to hear opinions of white middle aged men on the subject but there's a reason why we aren't seeing more black coaches in our game. Racism is still rife within the sport (and the world) unfortunately.

What is this reason you refer to?

[canarydan23 4,749]

Just now, JB said:

What is this reason you refer to?

He answered that in the very next sentence.

[hogesar 10,710]

11 hours ago, norfolkngood said:

Good Post i makes me think of Farke 

is Championship is Level ?

will he move on to great things ? i

is this the Best he will ever do get us up take us down ?

is this  his time like Lambert ? 

I Have not seen in the PL Farke Turn lesser players into a Team hard to beat so i Believe this is his Level great in Champs Poor in PL I Doubt he will go right to the top 

Well he had one season with an incredibly weak squad for prem football and almost no experience alongside a horrific injury crisis, as his only season at the top level.

And this season we arent even 10 games in and are only 3 points from being in the pack with many others.

[hogesar 10,710]

Lampard and Gerrard are simply bigger names and thats why they got the jobs. Henry and Vieira have walked into jobs.

I dont doubt racism still exists in places and will hinder them perhaps at particular clubs but if anything most English clubs would love to hire a black manager or coach, even if its for the wrong virtue signalling reasons. 

Equally, Hughton has always managed to get a job because he's a good manager.

[canarydan23 4,749]

29 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Equally, Hughton has always managed to get a job because he's a good manager.

Don't say that in Nottingham right now.

[1902 1,167]

13 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Would help if you'd bothered to read the email, which says 7 BAME managers in the top four divisions at current.

 

That's still disproportionately low by contrast to professional footballers, though probably not of society as a whole. 

However, it's a relatively recent development. It wasn't that long ago that it was only Chris Hughton amongst the 92. So it's fair to have that concern even if society is in the process of changing.

I wish the best for him (as I'm sure you do Teemu), and I think we will see a lot more BAME managers in the future. However I get why he would be concerned given recent history.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

32 minutes ago, 1902 said:

That's still disproportionately low by contrast to professional footballers, though probably not of society as a whole. 

However, it's a relatively recent development. It wasn't that long ago that it was only Chris Hughton amongst the 92. So it's fair to have that concern even if society is in the process of changing.

I wish the best for him (as I'm sure you do Teemu), and I think we will see a lot more BAME managers in the future. However I get why he would be concerned given recent history.

Of course I wish the best for him, as a Norwich player who worked hard for us and achieved on the pitch, nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

With the 'proportion' thing though, that seems to consider black players now Vs number of black managers. But what's the average age of a manager, should we completely guess at 53? 

So they'd have been half way through their playing careers 26 years ago, that takes us to 1995. Teams looked a lot more white then, it was before the influx of overseas talent and sky money.

Unless you start throwing out all the 60 year old white managers to replace with 40 year old black managers, which is how the BBC do it (so being ageist in order to meet other diversity quotas) then a bit of patience required.

It is the same with number of females in the boardroom. More girls than boys at uni now, but with board rooms full of 60 year olds... and uni's full of 20 year olds... you'll need to wait 20 years to start seeing the major changes in demography. 

 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,328]

2 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

But what's the average age of a manager, should we completely guess at 53? 

Before anybody calls me out for this complete guess, just googled the actual number for average age and at 49.5 I'm not far off! 

[1902 1,167]

3 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Of course I wish the best for him, as a Norwich player who worked hard for us and achieved on the pitch, nothing to do with the colour of his skin.

With the 'proportion' thing though, that seems to consider black players now Vs number of black managers. But what's the average age of a manager, should we completely guess at 53? 

So they'd have been half way through their playing careers 26 years ago, that takes us to 1995. Teams looked a lot more white then, it was before the influx of overseas talent and sky money.

Unless you start throwing out all the 60 year old white managers to replace with 40 year old black managers, which is how the BBC do it (so being ageist in order to meet other diversity quotas) then a bit of patience required.

It is the same with number of females in the boardroom. More girls than boys at uni now, but with board rooms full of 60 year olds... and uni's full of 20 year olds... you'll need to wait 20 years to start seeing the major changes in demography. 

 

My major quibble with that would be that given the carrousel of managers, most clubs throw out a 60 year old white manager every 12 months.