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Emi on the bench yet again!

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Twoddle. People just compare his Champioship goals and assists record and compare it with his one Premier League season and simplistically say, "he was rubbish".

Buendia created more chances than all bar three players in the Premier League that season, beaten only by De Bruyne, Alexander-Arnold and Jack Grealish. But if you apply a different metric and look instead at chances created to minutes played, Buendia is only beaten by De Bruyne, with our Emi creating a chance just under every 30 minutes he plays. For a team that finished rock bottom of the Premier League with a meager points haul of 21, that is a phenomenal effort.

I said at the time that I didn't think Villa was the right move for him and that he'd possibly live to regret it. Another season with us, playing as well as he has done throughout his Norwich career, and I think a bigger fish, with a better manager more capable of getting the best out of him like Farke, would have come and snaffled him.

Sorry but this isn't correct. 

The premier league website has it's own stats system.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created - Emi is joint 18th for that season for big chances created. Interestingly though, he is joint 11th on assists

Squawka, a source a few folks on here seem to like, don't have him in the top ten: https://www.squawka.com/en/most-chances-created-premier-league-2019-2020/

There was only one source, that I can no longer find, that put Buendia up in the top five in terms of chances created, but it looked like it had frozen part of the way through the season as it was incredibly short for De Bruyne's total compared to all of the better known sources for footy statistics.

Edit: turns out Squawka was one of the one or two sources I found last time which had Buendia inside the top five, in reality, the vast majority did not.

Edited by chicken

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2 minutes ago, chicken said:

Sorry but this isn't correct. 

The premier league website has it's own stats system.

https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/big_chance_created - Emi is joint 18th for that season for big chances created.

Squawka, a source a few folks on here seem to like, don't have him in the top ten: https://www.squawka.com/en/most-chances-created-premier-league-2019-2020/

There was only one source, that I can no longer find, that put Buendia up in the top five in terms of chances created, but it looked like it had frozen part of the way through the season as it was incredibly short for De Bruyne's total compared to all of the better known sources for footy statistics.

Chicken, have a little click on your own sqwawka link 🤦

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Chicken, have a little click on your own sqwawka link 🤦

😂

Ok so squawka was perhaps the one I found before, I'll edit it. Honestly though, of all the official stat sources I have found, Buendia is rarely in the top 5.

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1 minute ago, chicken said:

😂

Ok so squawka was perhaps the one I found before, I'll edit it. Honestly though, of all the official stat sources I have found, Buendia is rarely in the top 5.

A chance is a chance. A "big" chance us much more subjective and less useful a stat if truth be told. But even if it wasn't, 18th in the "best league in the world" in a team that finished rock bottom is might impressive, yes?

They mentioned it on MOTD one week toward the end of the season to, the 4th most chances created. Not sure what data source they used.

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5 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

A chance is a chance. A "big" chance us much more subjective and less useful a stat if truth be told. But even if it wasn't, 18th in the "best league in the world" in a team that finished rock bottom is might impressive, yes?

They mentioned it on MOTD one week toward the end of the season to, the 4th most chances created. Not sure what data source they used.

Hahaha, no, they are either both subjective or neither of them are. Especially if you can't describe the difference. And as with all journalists, I would worry that they were cherry picking the source that backed up what they were trying to say.

I have a pet hate with chances created, as I do with a lot of stats to be fair. A "chance created", for most of the sources recording them, is a ball that is played that results in a shot. With someone like Oliveira in your team who will happily shoot on site from 30yards, means you could get some outstanding stats for chances created if you get the ball to him enough. Equally, not all passes or balls are intended to result in a shot but do because of a bit of movement or a play decides to smash a Tettey-esque hit and hope.

Unfortunately, like a Tettey-esque hit and hope, and the vast majority of Oliveira's ranging efforts, most are more likely to spoil a half time beverage in the stands than burry themselves in the back of the net.

Some will equally argue that it also will include a lot of chances that are guilt edged and that players didn't get on target when they should have done. Additionally, shots on target is a funny one as I believe to count either the keeper has to save it or a player on the line. So if the shot was on target, say, from the edge of the box but is blocked by a defender it will go down as a chance created rather than a shot on target. Thus we get games where goals are peppered with shots but have such a seemingly low number of shots on target.

A great many of these stats are subjective. As a result - one could argue that perhaps "big chances created" portrays a more genuine statistic - as in, a pass that led to a genuine chance of scoring?

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At least he will be playing PL football next season, even if it’s only occasionally.

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2 minutes ago, chicken said:

A great many of these stats are subjective. As a result - one could argue that perhaps "big chances created" portrays a more genuine statistic - as in, a pass that led to a genuine chance of scoring?

Again, define genuine chance of scoring. Do you factor in how good the goaly is? Whether you played a through ball to Pukki or Hanley?

At the end of the day, an independent source with presumably equal and consistent benchmarks found that Buendia created the 4th highest number of chances in the league and the 2nd best minutes per chance created in a team that came last.

Yet for some reason several Norwich fans are playing that down and twisting themselves into logical knots to argue it's not that impressive.

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Just now, canarydan23 said:

Again, define genuine chance of scoring. Do you factor in how good the goaly is? Whether you played a through ball to Pukki or Hanley?

At the end of the day, an independent source with presumably equal and consistent benchmarks found that Buendia created the 4th highest number of chances in the league and the 2nd best minutes per chance created in a team that came last.

Yet for some reason several Norwich fans are playing that down and twisting themselves into logical knots to argue it's not that impressive.

What has the goal keeper got to do with chance creation? A chance is the bit before someone shoots. A good chance or a genuine chance would be someone not taking on a pot shot from distance. The point I was making is that you are too readily dismissing information to suit your agenda. You dismissed "big chances created" because you assume it is different to "chances created".

In the same way you are suggesting that the premier leagues own statistics are not "independent" - which is to suggest they are wrong for some reason for being the premier leagues own source of information. The premier league is also independent in this as they have nothing to gain from falsifying or setting criteria different to everyone else... unless you can prove it of course.

All of the questions you fire at the Premier Leagues statistics can equally be fired at squawka. That's why I say you cannot rely on one source of information. You need to look at multiple. Otherwise you have no idea if what you are basing the only evidence you are using, is accurate or not.

I can find multiple that concur with with the premier league and several that have Buendia even further down the list on minutes per chance as he played the vast majority of our premier league campaign. Willian for example, played fewer.

And it's not about playing down his actual achievements, it's about trying to stay within the realms of reality. People over the summer have made claims such as "he is better than Grealish", "he's worth more than £35m", "Pepe for Arsenal cost £70m+, Buendia is better and therefore worth more", "Our board is crap as we sold Buendia for well below his value", "Buendia is a top 6 player", "Buendia is a champions league player", "if we had held out he would have gone to a top six club", "the best player the championship has ever seen", "the best player this club has ever had" etc etc etc.

Sometimes we have to take a step back and realise that whilst a player has been brilliant for us, that doesn't necessarily make them a world beater, or even a player who will stroll through the premier league. I loved Buendia playing for us, especially last season when I think he became probably the most complete wide midfielder we have seen for at least a decade.

But the last premier league season was a real mixed bag for Buendia. The work rate and effort to get back wasn't as consistent or as present as it was last season. He could often be seen slapping the turf in the opponents half having tried to dribble past three players and failed. His decision making wasn't always consistent - see dribble past three players comment. He actually committed more passes resulting in an opponents goal than any other midfielder in the premier league that season, and quite a number of defenders.

That isn't to say he was rubbish, but that he had another side to his game that wasn't the thrilling forward playing and dribbling Buendia. Then there was project restart. Of all the players, he was arguably one of the more disappointing when you consider what we know he is capable of.

He wasn't particularly a revelation, he didn't rip up trees. As others have said, he isn't particularly fast, he isn't tall and he isn't actually all that strong. He can tackle though and he knows how to spread his weight which can help. He improved all of those aspects of his game last season, and you expect inconsistency from a younger player who would have been 22/23 at the time. That comes with the territory.

That's why I always say he has the potential to be a great player in the premier league - but the work rate and effort we saw last season with such consistency, needs to be replicated at this level for that to happen. A great many things can prevent that, wrong piece of the puzzle for Villa at this time? Hasn't settled? Attitude issues - (and lets face it, we know that he has struggled at times on the pitch with that, and a loss of focus off it)? Who knows. I still hope it works out for him, I'm pretty sure we stand to benefit if he does so I don't know why anyone would want him not to succeed.

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Looking like we're gonna disagree on this post. I hope we can agree that if he plays against Norwich we wind him up enough to get sent off. Shouldn't be that hard.

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48 minutes ago, unique said:

At least he will be playing PL football next season, even if it’s only occasionally.

And loving the 70/80k a week. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Kenny Foggo said:

Well most of the "talent" we bought with Buendia's cash was sat on the bench against Burnley.

What like Sargent, PLM, Normann and Kabak. 

Seriously. Some people will have a moan about anything.

Edited by 1902

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Living in Birmingham, it has to be said Villa fans turn on you quicker than most. I think you will find his biggest problem came when he decided to travel with Argentina. 

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Jeez, how many of you  lot base your views on football based on the last month rather than all the evidence…. Answer, far too many!    
 

Emi is a class footballer, he will be at Villa, he’s simply too good but missed games when he went to Argentina and was stuck in Croatia for 10 days so missed training, then Villa did well so he had to settle for the bench.   Any proper manager would keep the same team if they do well and I think beating Everton 3-0 and Man Utd away 1-0 is exactly that!

The lad deserves our utter respect, can’t blame him if he gets offered £80k a week instead of £25.     Not one person on the forum however yellow you are wouldn’t want the move!   

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21 hours ago, Hucks6 said:

Just a money grabbing so and so. Grass not always greener otbc

Like you wouldn’t be off in a flash with that kind of deal.   Honestly, why bother typing this rubbish!    

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80k a week and massive signing on fee where did it all go wrong Emi ? 

99 % of us on here would do exactly  the same as he did given the chance 

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2 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

That our best player is a bench option for other teams in this division speaks volumes I think 

But you thought he was amazing and let him go on the cheap... 

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1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The lad deserves our utter respect, can’t blame him if he gets offered £80k a week instead of £25.     Not one person on the forum however yellow you are wouldn’t want the move!   

Did the £25 come with a match day program and one of Delia's pies... asking for a friend... 😅

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On 03/10/2021 at 21:48, Hucks6 said:

Just a money grabbing so and so. Grass not always greener otbc

Look at it from Emi's point of view. He's moved to a club on a much bigger salary that we could never afford. The club has arguably much higher EPL aspirations and Aston Villa are far more likely to stay up. We needed the money and his stock was high. so it was a win win. Even if he never performs for Villa, he's set-up for life. 

The only negative is that is that he would have got more playing time at Norwich, but the vast majority of footballers are mercenaries and will go where the money is. Emi is no different. 

Footballers are not really there to be admired as they are so divorced from reality. As long as they do the job on the pitch for us, that's as far as it goes for me. 

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22 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Jeez, how many of you  lot base your views on football based on the last month rather than all the evidence…. Answer, far too many!    
 

Emi is a class footballer, he will be at Villa, he’s simply too good but missed games when he went to Argentina and was stuck in Croatia for 10 days so missed training, then Villa did well so he had to settle for the bench.   Any proper manager would keep the same team if they do well and I think beating Everton 3-0 and Man Utd away 1-0 is exactly that!

The lad deserves our utter respect, can’t blame him if he gets offered £80k a week instead of £25.     Not one person on the forum however yellow you are wouldn’t want the move!   

Villa fan in peace - this is the right answer. It's a fitness thing (going off to Argentina and not even making the bench wasn't ideal). Add that to the fact that we're switching between a couple of formations after years of being one dimensional + there's been some switching of personal and the midfield 3 were great against Everton and Man U.

Ignire Twitter "fans", it's literally the bottom of the barrel and not the consensus opinion. The vast majority of Villa fans can't wait for him to get back up to match fitness and are fully behind him. We expected to do much worse with both Emi struggling for fitness and Bailey out injured.

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As expected Teemu is missing him.....

“Of course, players of his level are missed. Emi is definitely one of the best I’ve played with,” said Pukki, who is with the Finland squad preparing for Saturday’s World Cup qualifier against Ukraine. “Especially at the level of personal chemistry, our thoughts matched up really well.  

"The ideas with Buendia coincided.  

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Very few of our biggest sales have gone on to be hugely more successful elsewhere, Sutton, Foxy, Redmond, yes, add Godfrey maybe, but jury is still out on EMI and Madders.Another example of shrewd old Nodge in the decades I’ve been following, although many were unlucky with injury, Darren, Bellers, Dean. 

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6 hours ago, Vancvillan said:

Villa fan in peace - this is the right answer. It's a fitness thing (going off to Argentina and not even making the bench wasn't ideal). Add that to the fact that we're switching between a couple of formations after years of being one dimensional + there's been some switching of personal and the midfield 3 were great against Everton and Man U.

Ignire Twitter "fans", it's literally the bottom of the barrel and not the consensus opinion. The vast majority of Villa fans can't wait for him to get back up to match fitness and are fully behind him. We expected to do much worse with both Emi struggling for fitness and Bailey out injured.

Having watched Emi closely and Grealish since the wife is a Villan, Emi has something only the best have, he sees the pass well before he gets the ball but can actually deliver the ball where it needs to be, his weight of pass is brilliant..... Watkins (seems quite similar in style to Pukki) will bag a hatful once Emi gets going.

Personally believe he will prove to be better than Grealish, big call I know, but he is special and as a consequence, an absolute bargain. 

 

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16 hours ago, corbs said:

Very few of our biggest sales have gone on to be hugely more successful elsewhere, Sutton, Foxy, Redmond, yes, add Godfrey maybe, but jury is still out on EMI and Madders.Another example of shrewd old Nodge in the decades I’ve been following, although many were unlucky with injury, Darren, Bellers, Dean. 

Maddison has won the FA Cup, played in Europe, and been capped internationally. 

I'm not sure how that doesn't equate to "hugely more successful elsewhere".

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11 minutes ago, komakino said:

Steve Bruce did rather well I remember. 

Dave Watson won the League, FA Cup and 12 England caps as well

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4 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Dave Watson won the League, FA Cup and 12 England caps as well

Andy Linighan too. Often a forgotten man, but won honours with Arsenal. 

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16 hours ago, corbs said:

Very few of our biggest sales have gone on to be hugely more successful elsewhere, Sutton, Foxy, Redmond, yes, add Godfrey maybe, but jury is still out on EMI and Madders.Another example of shrewd old Nodge in the decades I’ve been following, although many were unlucky with injury, Darren, Bellers, Dean. 

Emi will no doubt become an important part of Villa, can't see how he wouldn't. Yes he's had a very slow start after a decent showing in pre-season, but it will inevitably come. 

Madders has had a bit of a weird trajectory in his career, went to a very good club and seemed to develop very well but hasn't really performance at the highest level for quite a while now, he needs to get his head down and work harder at it if he wants to get into the England squad again.

Norwich have done well in recent years for sales - Pritchard, the Murphy's and Madders all left for decent money to finance our promotion charge/overhaul of the squad. Godfrey and Jamal to finance our second promotional charge and investments for this season (Dimi/Gibson), and then Emi to bankroll our summer investments. Reflecting back it's hard not to be vastly impressed by Webber, you can't argue with his work, he's massively improved us in our time here and done very well at it.

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