Norwich City…..business plan?

[Bradwell canary 109]

Seems to me that it’s simple.

The clubs mantra is based on buying young cheap players, on the hope that some may come good, then sell at huge profit.

it can’t be to stay in the PL, can it?

if that were true why would you constantly sell your very best players if you really want to stay in that exclusive club?

We have had more promotions than most clubs could ever dream of, therefore more opportunities to stay there, but once there have shown little effort in staying up.

So it come down to one thing, is it possible to become a regular member of that club on a self funding club model? I think that once again this season will prove it can be done!

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

During all of this process the team has improved year on year, surely the hope is that we eventually get to a point where the players don’t need or necessarily want to leave.

There remains plenty of potential.

No doubt we can survive and thrive at this level.   It’s going to take time and fan patience though.
 

 

[komakino 272]

6 minutes ago, Bradwell canary said:

Seems to me that it’s simple.

The clubs mantra is based on buying young cheap players, on the hope that some may come good, then sell at huge profit.

it can’t be to stay in the PL, can it?

if that were true why would you constantly sell your very best players if you really want to stay in that exclusive club?

We have had more promotions than most clubs could ever dream of, therefore more opportunities to stay there, but once there have shown little effort in staying up.

So it come down to one thing, is it possible to become a regular member of that club on a self funding club model? I think that once again this season will prove it can be done!

 

As I've consistently posted elsewhere, the clubs position is much as a moral one, as financial. Their heart isn't really in the EPL, so apart from taking T.V money and parachute payments, they are comfortable being a second tier team - whether the fans like that, or not. They know the fans won't stop going, so in that respect, Norwich City heavily take their fans for granted. 

There is nothing wrong with selling players for a profit - all teams do it - but once the parachute payments run out, selling our best players may not be enough. The club is totally compromised by Smith & Jones ownership and ethos and we are currently playing out an extremely long end game that will not end well. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

Very few teams can have that business model and still stay in the premier league the only one I can think of is Southampton who’ve done it like that. However when they invested their money they brought in more proven players but simply promoted youth too. 

their mantra sees to be promote youth to sell and buy proven players to keep you in the league who then also have the potential to add extra value too.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

10 minutes ago, komakino said:

As I've consistently posted elsewhere, the clubs position is much as a moral one, as financial. Their heart isn't really in the EPL, so apart from taking T.V money and parachute payments, they are comfortable being a second tier team - whether the fans like that, or not. They know the fans won't stop going, so in that respect, Norwich City heavily take their fans for granted. 

There is nothing wrong with selling players for a profit - all teams do it - but once the parachute payments run out, selling our best players may not be enough. The club is totally compromised by Smith & Jones ownership and ethos and we are currently playing out an extremely long end game that will not end well. 

What does much as a moral one as financial mean?    Particularly referencing the ‘moral’ bit!    Who said their heart isn’t really in the EPL?

We are (and have to) do it our way.  Exactly how is the club compromised by S&J?   This should be good!     Not expecting a response but fair play in advance if you can offer constructive reasoning!

Would also like to ask what the end game is you refer to as I’m thinking there is no intentional end game, the philosophy is just to improve and see where it leads.   

Edited September 26, 2021 by ged in the onion bag

[komakino 272]

2 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

What does much as a moral one as financial mean?    Particularly referencing the ‘moral’ bit!    Who said their heart isn’t really in the EPL?

We are (and have to) do it our way.  Exactly how is the club compromised by S&J?   This should be good!     Not expecting a response but fair play in advance if you can offer constructive reasoning!

Would also like to ask what the end game is you refer to as I’m thinking there is no intentional end game, the philosophy is just to improve and see where it leads.   

One of the criticisms of NCFC is that they don't really want to be in the EPL. That has built up over the years, especially after the infamous Times piece with Smith & Jones are few years back. The cat was out of the bag. Their view of football is very parochial, though they are not totally alone in that respect. 

Because S&J do not invest or attract investment, the club is financially compromised. This season is no exception. We needed to buy less, but buy better to give ourselves a better chance of staying in the league. Our net spend was probably circa £20M when it needed to be nearer £50M. I'm not saying they should spend it out of their own pockets, but if you cannot attract outside investment either, than you should not be anywhere near a football club, particularly an EPL/Championship one. 

The end game is that 'going down and then back up again' is not really sustainable. When the parachutes payments have dried up, we will heavily have to rely on player sales - and what if we don't have that much to sell?'. Financially, the club would be in the manure and would have to downsize, meaning the likelihood remaining a 2nd or even dipping into the 3rd tier again. EPL football would be unlikely unless a group of cheap youngsters/journeyman could get you up. 

With a bit more finance and desire, it could be quite different. But it isn't. 

[Monty13 2,231]

41 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

During all of this process the team has improved year on year, surely the hope is that we eventually get to a point where the players don’t need or necessarily want to leave.

There remains plenty of potential.

No doubt we can survive and thrive at this level.   It’s going to take time and fan patience though.
 

 

That’s fair, maybe it’s the only way we can, but that’s also a very slow and risky way to make the goal of PL survival IMO.

Risky because how do you keep a supporter base content, a manager supported and attract the next players for that model if everyone thinks its a very good chance we will get relegated every time we are promoted.

We are only second season in the PL of this plan and already a good chunk of supporters are restless, and the team looks shot of confidence.

The other risk is a lack of confidence is a killer and the Championship is not a walkover league. Only needs to go wrong once and we don’t bounce back and all the forward momentum in the strength of the team can be lost.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

6 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

That’s fair, maybe it’s the only way we can, but that’s also a very slow and risky way to make the goal of PL survival IMO.

Risky because how do you keep a supporter base content, a manager supported and attract the next players for that model if everyone thinks its a very good chance we will get relegated every time we are promoted.

We are only second season in the PL of this plan and already a good chunk of supporters are restless, and the team looks shot of confidence.

The other risk is a lack of confidence is a killer and the Championship is not a walkover league. Only needs to go wrong once and we don’t bounce back and all the forward momentum in the strength of the team can be lost.

It is slow, but there is still enough evidence of an upward curve since we now have a lot of potential and as you say, confidence is crucial in high level sport.    Disappointed it will take longer than expected but I remain convinced the long road will lead us to EPL consistency even if it takes another relegation.   
The fans need to be patient because any other option has no certainty or commitment but plenty more risk.    
Not saying we would be promoted but think we would have a team to compete and likely to be in the mix.   

[Bradwell canary 109]

45 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

It is slow, but there is still enough evidence of an upward curve since we now have a lot of potential and as you say, confidence is crucial in high level sport.    Disappointed it will take longer than expected but I remain convinced the long road will lead us to EPL consistency even if it takes another relegation.   
The fans need to be patient because any other option has no certainty or commitment but plenty more risk.    
Not saying we would be promoted but think we would have a team to compete and likely to be in the mix.   

“Even if it takes another relegation”.  Think we forget sometimes just how hard it is to get out of the champs.

Took Leeds 15 years, to do it, and like it or not they are a much bigger club than us.

We did it twice in three season, can’t see happening yet again. 

[yellowrider120 762]

4 hours ago, komakino said:

As I've consistently posted elsewhere, the clubs position is much as a moral one, as financial. Their heart isn't really in the EPL, so apart from taking T.V money and parachute payments, they are comfortable being a second tier team - whether the fans like that, or not. They know the fans won't stop going, so in that respect, Norwich City heavily take their fans for granted. 

There is nothing wrong with selling players for a profit - all teams do it - but once the parachute payments run out, selling our best players may not be enough. The club is totally compromised by Smith & Jones ownership and ethos and we are currently playing out an extremely long end game that will not end well. 

Yep - spot on.

If we get relegated at first time of asking (for the third successive time) it stretches credulity almost to breaking point to assume that we will (again) go straight back up. No way would Kabak and Normann be signed permanently for the reported fees. Also I would expect the three 'record signings' to 'want out'. Gilmour returns to Chelsea, Williams to Man Utd. Pukki will be 32 and no way could we realistically expect him to bag ANOTHER 30 league goals! Who could we sell for 'big money'? AO would be main contender. We have no idea what is happening to Cantwell who has been benched even before these 'personal reasons'. Chances of trousering £30M for him are sinking quicker than a winter sunset. Ditto Air Rons. Far more realistic is a drift down to being a mid table Championship club at best.

[KernowCanary 214]

Spend in our means, don’t spend out of your nose hoping to stay up buying loads of players, only to get relegated in debt.

In the 2013-14 season, we were the highest Premier League club in profit by 2 million and only one of two clubs to have in the black figures (Swansea were the other, being one million in profit).

All very well and good, but it don’t seem to be producing results while in the Premier League, especially when in 2013-14 we got relegated.

[ged in the onion bag 855]

4 hours ago, Bradwell canary said:

“Even if it takes another relegation”.  Think we forget sometimes just how hard it is to get out of the champs.

Took Leeds 15 years, to do it, and like it or not they are a much bigger club than us.

We did it twice in three season, can’t see happening yet again. 

Took Leeds 15 unstable years, a club who left the EPL in financial ruin and who had to sell all their players, come on, that’s a garbage argument.    We are stable, will be next year and (it’s a big and) everyone keeps their head (I’m referring to the fans) we have more chance of doing it again but finally with a central midfield that’s good enough and players ready to step up.    
 

it remains a gradual process.   
 

Sunderland are bigger than us, where are they?    No wonder you can’t see it happening if you can’t find an argument that actually stacks up!   For balance, I definitely can see it happening!   

Edited September 26, 2021 by ged in the onion bag

[robert choice 24]

NCFC is now a glorified cattle market. Bringing in youngsters to fatten up for market is the gameplan and to hell with what goes on, on matchdays.

 

We are the new Peterborough United.

 

 

 

[Big Vince 318]

On 26/09/2021 at 13:47, komakino said:

One of the criticisms of NCFC is that they don't really want to be in the EPL. That has built up over the years, especially after the infamous Times piece with Smith & Jones are few years back. The cat was out of the bag. Their view of football is very parochial, though they are not totally alone in that respect. 

Because S&J do not invest or attract investment, the club is financially compromised. This season is no exception. We needed to buy less, but buy better to give ourselves a better chance of staying in the league. Our net spend was probably circa £20M when it needed to be nearer £50M. I'm not saying they should spend it out of their own pockets, but if you cannot attract outside investment either, than you should not be anywhere near a football club, particularly an EPL/Championship one. 

The end game is that 'going down and then back up again' is not really sustainable. When the parachutes payments have dried up, we will heavily have to rely on player sales - and what if we don't have that much to sell?'. Financially, the club would be in the manure and would have to downsize, meaning the likelihood remaining a 2nd or even dipping into the 3rd tier again. EPL football would be unlikely unless a group of cheap youngsters/journeyman could get you up. 

With a bit more finance and desire, it could be quite different. But it isn't. 

They are typical socialists. They disapprove of other people (clubs in this case) having money, but they are not averse to taking a bit of TV or parachute cash for themselves when the opportunity arises, and especially if it helps them cling on to control.

[lake district canary 4,531]

A few misconceptions and fallacies on this thread. The aim, as @ged in the onion bag said - is to improve year on year and see where it gets us.  That is all any of us should ask for and even in the last relegation year, we strengthened the squad which enabled us to have a great go at getting promotion - which went according to plan.....we improved. 

Once again, we have strengthened the squad for this season with some class players in, whilst getting in very highly rated youngsters too.  I know, it is yet to show it's full potential.....but it will - it will improve.   Whether it is good enough to keep us up no-one - and I mean no-one knows, but if we are relegated again, the plan will continue, we will aim to have a yet stronger squad next season and keep building....building the strength in depth, building the finances by selling on, so we can afford better players and pay higher wages - and do well the following season to get back to the PL.

The main point is that it is progressive - it is leading somewhere - and that is to a bigger and better club. If it carries on like it is, we will eventually get to the point that we are good enough and strong enough to maintain a few seasons in the top flight - yes, it may first mean another relegation and return back to the PL in a season or two, but the policy is still better than all these rich clubs who try - and often fail - to make any impression at all - and those who are scared of going back down, should be encouraged by what we achieved last season - and anyway we should never be scared of anything in football. 

 

[ged in the onion bag 855]

42 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

They are typical socialists. They disapprove of other people (clubs in this case) having money, but they are not averse to taking a bit of TV or parachute cash for themselves when the opportunity arises, and especially if it helps them cling on to control.

Socialists generally like to share the wealth around and would be happier the more of it is available to share.   They don’t disapprove of other people having money.

Are you suggesting that they give the TV and parachute cash back, they have no right to it?    Are you also suggesting that they are trousering it all for themselves?   If the later, any evidence?   Be interested to know!   

[Surfer 1,547]

You can’t see us getting promoted again?

Even allowing for departures via sales or other - 

 

Gunn,

Mumba, Omobamidele, Gibson, Giannoulis 

McLean, Sorensen, Lees-Melou

Rashica    Tzolis 

Sargent

 

Subs

Rupp

Dowell

Idah

 

You don’t think that team would get promoted? 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Surfer

[shefcanary 2,402]

33 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Socialists generally like to share the wealth around and would be happier the more of it is available to share.   They don’t disapprove of other people having money.

Are you suggesting that they give the TV and parachute cash back, they have no right to it?    Are you also suggesting that they are trousering it all for themselves?   If the later, any evidence?   Be interested to know!   

If they do "trouser" TV cash, S&J really have pulled the wool over the eyes of fellow board members, senior staff, auditors, taxman and the EPL / EFL.  Ignore Vince, its statements like this that always undermine any argument he presents.  I can only assume at some point he has been deprived of cash through something that S&J were connected to (other than ticket money of course).

[ged in the onion bag 855]

20 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

If they do "trouser" TV cash, S&J really have pulled the wool over the eyes of fellow board members, senior staff, auditors, taxman and the EPL / EFL.  Ignore Vince, its statements like this that always undermine any argument he presents.  I can only assume at some point he has been deprived of cash through something that S&J were connected to (other than ticket money of course).

Fair points!   I wasn’t really expecting anything tangible back!   

[Big Vince 318]

1 hour ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Socialists generally like to share the wealth around and would be happier the more of it is available to share.   They don’t disapprove of other people having money.

Are you suggesting that they give the TV and parachute cash back, they have no right to it?    Are you also suggesting that they are trousering it all for themselves?   If the later, any evidence?   Be interested to know!   

I am saying they are happy to take it for the club, not themselves personally. I am saying even though they disapprove of other clubs having a lot of money, they are more than happy to take the TV cash, parachute payments and the money from player sales as soon as it is offered to Norwich City.

Yeah, socialists like to share wealth around alright - after they have stolen it off the people it belonged to in the first place. France = 70% top rate of tax. Raducanu = 45% of her £1.8 million going to pensioners who think they have a divine right to be looked after by the state until they kick the bucket. Not that they should have made provision for themselves in their old age instead of squandering it on new kitchens, new cars, holidays, clothes, fags, booze, football tickets, cosmetics, etc.

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

21 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

I am saying they are happy to take it for the club, not themselves personally. I am saying even though they disapprove of other clubs having a lot of money, they are more than happy to take the TV cash, parachute payments and the money from player sales as soon as it is offered to Norwich City.

Yeah, socialists like to share wealth around alright - after they have stolen it off the people it belonged to in the first place. France = 70% top rate of tax. Raducanu = 45% of her £1.8 million going to pensioners who think they have a divine right to be looked after by the state until they kick the bucket. Not that they should have made provision for themselves in their old age instead of squandering it on new kitchens, new cars, holidays, clothes, fags, booze, football tickets, cosmetics, etc.

 

 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

On 26/09/2021 at 23:10, robert choice said:

NCFC is now a glorified cattle market. Bringing in youngsters to fatten up for market is the gameplan and to hell with what goes on, on matchdays.

 

We are the new Peterborough United.

 

 

 

Or Chelsea-lite

[robert choice 24]

8 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Or Chelsea-lite

Extremely-lite.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

14 minutes ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Or Chelsea-lite

Or indeed Borussia Dortmund.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Or indeed Borussia Dortmund.

Or virtually  any Club, except those who do not have an academy,  simple though it may sound , nearly all clubs are feeder clubs. 

[sgncfc 1,227]

On 26/09/2021 at 13:24, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Very few teams can have that business model and still stay in the premier league the only one I can think of is Southampton who’ve done it like that. However when they invested their money they brought in more proven players but simply promoted youth too. 

their mantra sees to be promote youth to sell and buy proven players to keep you in the league who then also have the potential to add extra value too.

Sorry, I can't let that go without comment. Badger has pointed out on other threads how much debt Southampton are in plus this Summer they sold their two of their proven players (Ings and Vestergard) for a combined £46m and invested in 4 completely unproven players - Armstrong, Perraud, Lyanco and Livramento. They spent £39m on them, making a net profit on transfers this summer in total of about £12m.

They are currently 4 points ahead of us having also not won a match in the PL this season. They are most definitely relegation rivals and, like others, have a limited life in the PL until it comes crashing down.

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

4 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Or indeed Borussia Dortmund.

I feel we are mixing a lot of Ajax and Chelsea in our methods. Chelsea for the loans and Ajax for the youth development/sales. 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

4 hours ago, robert choice said:

Extremely-lite.

Yes but the idea is there with the mass loaning out we have begun to do

[robert choice 24]

1 minute ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Yes but the idea is there with the mass loaning out we have begun to do

Not many showing promise other than lower league quality unfortunately.

 

 

[Dr Greenthumb 749]

Just now, robert choice said:

Not many showing promise other than lower league quality unfortunately.

 

 

You can’t really write off all our loans when there is around 38 games left for them at this early stage of the season