Where did it all go wrong Daniel, Stuart, Delia?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

“I am totally, totally convinced in the way that the club develops, what we are doing and I am fully convinced of what I do, otherwise I would do it in a different way,” he said.

“Maybe it is the price you have to pay for some good work and for success because then the expectations rise. The demands are just higher.  

“When I remember the situation four years ago when I walked in, let’s be honest, we were in no man’s land in the Championship."The squad was too old, too expensive. We were under unbelievable financial pressure and the infrastructure was not great. We were working more or less with a gun to our head due to this financial pressure.

Now we are in the Premier League and there is moaning we are bottom. Several other clubs would be happy if they would be in this situation.  

“We have none of those financial pressures, even in the worst pandemic in a century, and a squad with many younger players, and most under longer term contracts.

"In the last three years, two of those we have played in the Premier League.

"This club has won the Championship three times in history, twice of those under me. If you would have predicted this four years ago everyone would have probably replied, 'Not in our wildest dreams.' But it’s not enough.

"We all want to be successful on Premier League level and we’re totally heading in the right direction, at every level of the club. We don’t want to be bottom.” 

As a neat conclusion to this thread, this is entirely a correct and fair response from Daniel Farke. I certainly accept all of it. 

Nevertheless complaining about raised expectations is complaining about success itself. This - trotsdem Daniel - is the driver, catalyst and raison d’être that made all things possible to this point. 

This is the life we have chosen. 

Parma 

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

41 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

“I am totally, totally convinced in the way that the club develops, what we are doing and I am fully convinced of what I do, otherwise I would do it in a different way,” he said.

“Maybe it is the price you have to pay for some good work and for success because then the expectations rise. The demands are just higher.  

“When I remember the situation four years ago when I walked in, let’s be honest, we were in no man’s land in the Championship."The squad was too old, too expensive. We were under unbelievable financial pressure and the infrastructure was not great. We were working more or less with a gun to our head due to this financial pressure.

Now we are in the Premier League and there is moaning we are bottom. Several other clubs would be happy if they would be in this situation.  

“We have none of those financial pressures, even in the worst pandemic in a century, and a squad with many younger players, and most under longer term contracts.

"In the last three years, two of those we have played in the Premier League.

"This club has won the Championship three times in history, twice of those under me. If you would have predicted this four years ago everyone would have probably replied, 'Not in our wildest dreams.' But it’s not enough.

"We all want to be successful on Premier League level and we’re totally heading in the right direction, at every level of the club. We don’t want to be bottom.” 

As a neat conclusion to this thread, this is entirely a correct and fair response from Daniel Farke. I certainly accept all of it. 

Nevertheless complaining about raised expectations is complaining about success itself. This - trotsdem Daniel - is the driver, catalyst and raison d’être that made all things possible to this point. 

This is the life we have chosen. 

Parma 

So, in brief, we  are where we are and it is what it is.

[komakino 272]

31 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

“I am totally, totally convinced in the way that the club develops, what we are doing and I am fully convinced of what I do, otherwise I would do it in a different way,” he said.

“Maybe it is the price you have to pay for some good work and for success because then the expectations rise. The demands are just higher.  

“When I remember the situation four years ago when I walked in, let’s be honest, we were in no man’s land in the Championship."The squad was too old, too expensive. We were under unbelievable financial pressure and the infrastructure was not great. We were working more or less with a gun to our head due to this financial pressure.

Now we are in the Premier League and there is moaning we are bottom. Several other clubs would be happy if they would be in this situation.  

“We have none of those financial pressures, even in the worst pandemic in a century, and a squad with many younger players, and most under longer term contracts.

"In the last three years, two of those we have played in the Premier League.

"This club has won the Championship three times in history, twice of those under me. If you would have predicted this four years ago everyone would have probably replied, 'Not in our wildest dreams.' But it’s not enough.

"We all want to be successful on Premier League level and we’re totally heading in the right direction, at every level of the club. We don’t want to be bottom.” 

As a neat conclusion to this thread, this is entirely a correct and fair response from Daniel Farke. I certainly accept all of it. 

Nevertheless complaining about raised expectations is complaining about success itself. This - trotsdem Daniel - is the driver, catalyst and raison d’être that made all things possible to this point. 

This is the life we have chosen. 

Parma 

 

While a lot of what Farke says in undeniably true, there is still some points that raise concern to the point of patronising the fan base to keep the status quo. He is clearly under no pressure, which is frankly ridiculous. That doesn't help nobody. 

'Heading in the right direction' is a bold claim to make, given the circumstances and certainly based on optimism, rather than cold facts. If we go down this year, then I cannot see another EPL campaign for the foreseeable future. 

Who wants a well run club (I'd debate that) that doesn't perform?

 

 

 

 

 

[hogesar 9,618]

17 minutes ago, komakino said:

 

While a lot of what Farke says in undeniably true, there is still some points that raise concern to the point of patronising the fan base to keep the status quo. He is clearly under no pressure, which is frankly ridiculous. That doesn't help nobody. 

'Heading in the right direction' is a bold claim to make, given the circumstances and certainly based on optimism, rather than cold facts. If we go down this year, then I cannot see another EPL campaign for the foreseeable future. 

Who wants a well run club (I'd debate that) that doesn't perform?

 

 

 

 

 

Most of your lot said exactly the same a couple seasons ago. Not sure how you would even begin to argue against us being well run as one of the only self funding clubs in the top two tiers, with no large external debt, whilst still massively improving infrastructure such as our training complex,  and continuing to increase the value of our squad.

[Petriix 2,834]

1 hour ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

“I am totally, totally convinced in the way that the club develops, what we are doing and I am fully convinced of what I do, otherwise I would do it in a different way,” he said.

“Maybe it is the price you have to pay for some good work and for success because then the expectations rise. The demands are just higher.  

“When I remember the situation four years ago when I walked in, let’s be honest, we were in no man’s land in the Championship."The squad was too old, too expensive. We were under unbelievable financial pressure and the infrastructure was not great. We were working more or less with a gun to our head due to this financial pressure.

Now we are in the Premier League and there is moaning we are bottom. Several other clubs would be happy if they would be in this situation.  

“We have none of those financial pressures, even in the worst pandemic in a century, and a squad with many younger players, and most under longer term contracts.

"In the last three years, two of those we have played in the Premier League.

"This club has won the Championship three times in history, twice of those under me. If you would have predicted this four years ago everyone would have probably replied, 'Not in our wildest dreams.' But it’s not enough.

"We all want to be successful on Premier League level and we’re totally heading in the right direction, at every level of the club. We don’t want to be bottom.” 

As a neat conclusion to this thread, this is entirely a correct and fair response from Daniel Farke. I certainly accept all of it. 

Nevertheless complaining about raised expectations is complaining about success itself. This - trotsdem Daniel - is the driver, catalyst and raison d’être that made all things possible to this point. 

This is the life we have chosen. 

Parma 

Yes, this is all totally valid; and why we don't need to be calling for his head. But it's still reasonable to ask a few questions about the approach this season, especially why we seem to have diverged from the previously successful path.

It's still fine margins between success and failure. Some of us, rightly or wrongly, think that we could and should be doing a little better at this stage. 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

37 minutes ago, komakino said:

 

While a lot of what Farke says in undeniably true, there is still some points that raise concern to the point of patronising the fan base to keep the status quo. He is clearly under no pressure, which is frankly ridiculous. That doesn't help nobody. 

'Heading in the right direction' is a bold claim to make, given the circumstances and certainly based on optimism, rather than cold facts. If we go down this year, then I cannot see another EPL campaign for the foreseeable future. 

Who wants a well run club (I'd debate that) that doesn't perform?

 

 

 

 

 

Why not? The club is organisationally very stable, financially in a good position, certainly compared to some potential rivals, will have parachute payments, and will presumably keep several of the 11 players who joined us this season, either permanently or on loan.

Added to which the recent history of the Championship is that clubs relegated from the EPL have a very good chance of going straight back up, as we have shown. Early days but WBA are top and Fulham fourth. An objective analysis of the facts would make us among the favourites to be promoted again.

[Taiwan Canary 144]

A paradox that would make Zeno proud. 

Edited October 2, 2021 by Taiwan Canary

[mastoola 183]

On 29/09/2021 at 12:10, kirku said:

You know mastoola whilst i read all your posts it leads me to the old saying "he's so dense light bends around him"

Your understanding of physics is monumental. You are my prime example of **** baffles brains. Your statement is the opposite of physics!!!! dense or what?

[kenfoggo 247]

This is the kind of statement when a Head Coach feels so secure in his position he does not need to be concerned that he may not be on the right path. No wee niggley , naggely doubts. Sheer arrogance that he is the best coach this club has ever had. But the facts are that out of 7 games and a possible 21 points, we have accrued 1 point. We have only scored 2 goals (only one from open play and one penalty).  Whichever excuse you may wish to try to make, those are facts. Nobody connected with the Club should accept this as an adequate performance. We are not heading in the right direction, yet. We have too many squad members who are clearly not Premiership standard. Farke may have lost touch with reality or has been listening to his own press. How many Head coaches have been relegated from the Premiership with the same club? 

[sgncfc 1,223]

58 minutes ago, kenfoggo said:

This is the kind of statement when a Head Coach feels so secure in his position he does not need to be concerned that he may not be on the right path. No wee niggley , naggely doubts. Sheer arrogance that he is the best coach this club has ever had. But the facts are that out of 7 games and a possible 21 points, we have accrued 1 point. We have only scored 2 goals (only one from open play and one penalty).  Whichever excuse you may wish to try to make, those are facts. Nobody connected with the Club should accept this as an adequate performance. We are not heading in the right direction, yet. We have too many squad members who are clearly not Premiership standard. Farke may have lost touch with reality or has been listening to his own press. How many Head coaches have been relegated from the Premiership with the same club? 

Or could it be that he is actually doing the job he was asked and expected to do, and is doing it well? If you seriously can't see progress over the 4 years he has been here, you cannot understand what it is he is trying to achieve. 

7 games ago he was the best manager we'd ever had according to some on here. Our performances are improving and we will get better because we have good players. You need to stop listening to Talksport, watching MOTD and reading the Sun.

Have some bloody faith in your team and it's manager. The team and the manager who have given you some of the best days to be a Norwich fan in our history over the last 4 years.

[Tzol Machine 27]

10 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Or could it be that he is actually doing the job he was asked and expected to do, and is doing it well? If you seriously can't see progress over the 4 years he has been here, you cannot understand what it is he is trying to achieve. 

7 games ago he was the best manager we'd ever had according to some on here. Our performances are improving and we will get better because we have good players. You need to stop listening to Talksport, watching MOTD and reading the Sun.

Have some bloody faith in your team and it's manager. The team and the manager who have given you some of the best days to be a Norwich fan in our history over the last 4 years.

Best manager do not throw under the bus their best young players like he did for Tzolis. Adam is completely worthless and yet he gets prime opportunities he does not deserve. 

Farke is probably great for Champ but he clearly is getting exposed in the PL. 

[kirku 1,332]

9 hours ago, mastoola said:

Your understanding of physics is monumental. You are my prime example of **** baffles brains. Your statement is the opposite of physics!!!! dense or what?

Feel free to add it to the seemingly long list of things you have absolutely no knowledge of but hold very strong opinions on

[komakino 272]

8 hours ago, sgncfc said:

Or could it be that he is actually doing the job he was asked and expected to do, and is doing it well? If you seriously can't see progress over the 4 years he has been here, you cannot understand what it is he is trying to achieve. 

7 games ago he was the best manager we'd ever had according to some on here. Our performances are improving and we will get better because we have good players. You need to stop listening to Talksport, watching MOTD and reading the Sun.

Have some bloody faith in your team and it's manager. The team and the manager who have given you some of the best days to be a Norwich fan in our history over the last 4 years.

If you think Farke has given us some of the best days in our history, you haven't supported us for very long. The club has had many managers that have achieved more, because they didn't take us down to the second tier. He is no Walker, Stringer, or Lambert. He could turn it around, but there is still no evidence - yet - that he will. 

[Gordon Bennett 780]

8 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

Best manager do not throw under the bus their best young players like he did for Tzolis. Adam is completely worthless and yet he gets prime opportunities he does not deserve. 

Farke is probably great for Champ but he clearly is getting exposed in the PL. 

I don't think Tzolis was 'thrown under the bus' at all, DF was asked about the penalty by the media that night and answered honestly and in a fashion where Tzolis learned a big lesson. I thought he handled it well. In addition Idah is absolutely not worthless otherwise he wouldn't be here getting his opportunities. Easy to say a striker looks poor when he is feeding off scraps.

[sgncfc 1,223]

2 hours ago, komakino said:

If you think Farke has given us some of the best days in our history, you haven't supported us for very long. The club has had many managers that have achieved more, because they didn't take us down to the second tier. He is no Walker, Stringer, or Lambert. He could turn it around, but there is still no evidence - yet - that he will. 

No mate, only 60 years or so, compared to you real old timers who are still harping on about the 1959 cup run 😄

2018-19 was probably the best football supporting season in my life. Last season, the way we played against Huddersfield and before Giannoulis was sent off against Bournemouth was probably the best I have ever seen a Norwich team play.

I saw most games in 1992-3, again most games in the Lambert years. We were good, but we didn't play football of that quality even then. The closest was actually under John Bond in the 1970s when we had two or three outstanding players; but even that wasn't as good as the "team play" under Farke.

I guess it depends why you support a football club and what you get out of it. I'd rather watch a 3-3 draw with Nottingham Forest under Farke than a 1-0 win against Hull City under Hughton, but I understand for some people results and achievement are everything.

[sgncfc 1,223]

11 hours ago, Tzol Machine said:

Best manager do not throw under the bus their best young players like he did for Tzolis. Adam is completely worthless and yet he gets prime opportunities he does not deserve. 

Farke is probably great for Champ but he clearly is getting exposed in the PL. 

"Adam is completely worthless". Just read that back to yourself and then ask why anyone should take anything you say seriously. You are poison. Go away.

[wcorkcanary 4,329]

I wasn't aware that it had 'all gone wrong' , just that it wasn't going so well lately.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,219]

19 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

I wasn't aware that it had 'all gone wrong' , just that it wasn't going so well lately.

That question was also inherent in the title @wcorkcanary which is a reference to the apocryphal quote attributed to a journalist who apparently stumbled upon George Best in a hotel room surrounded by champagne bottles and beautiful women…

…George Best was successful, he was brilliant…and yet…and yet…the counter-argument was that he wasted his talent, that he was lost to the game too young..that money, fame, women are ephemeral and trivial and not central to sporting success…and yet…and yet..

This implied circular reference is the point of the title…I do not believe that either ‘side’ is correct, I do think that there is truth from both angles, yet it is entirely right and professional to ask ‘what are the objectives?’ …’what about top level success (or even competing)?’…’what does success look like?’…’who decides that?…why do they decide that?…what are the real drivers, motivations and raison d’être of fundamental stakeholders? …Is it explicit?..known?..acknowledged?…’

Does it synchronise with today’s sporting reality? Does it plough a worthy, important lone furrow? Is it a moral stance? Is it none of those things and just a drifting ‘it is what it is?’…is that enough? Is it exactly as planned?…(a coaching control-the-controllable default to less possession and shutting the spaces away to Burnley?)….Or - as you rightly ask - is it going wrong at all?

George? George…..?

Parma

Edited October 4, 2021 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Red_Spartan 18]

Re Parma's loss of weapons. We have sold one (Emi) but have we acquired two with patient transfer dealing, Normann and Kazak?

[Tzol Machine 27]

6 hours ago, sgncfc said:

"Adam is completely worthless". Just read that back to yourself and then ask why anyone should take anything you say seriously. You are poison. Go away.

You have not seen much football if you think Adam is any good. He's hot trash. Tzolis scored 15-16 goals last year from the left wing. 

The only toxicity here is people like you who have set such low standards for them self that they rejoice when they're served dog **** as their main meal. 

Enjoy it

[FenwayFrank 2,457]

1 minute ago, Tzol Machine said:

You have not seen much football if you think Adam is any good. He's hot trash. Tzolis scored 15-16 goals last year from the left wing. 

The only toxicity here is people like you who have set such low standards for them self that they rejoice when they're served dog **** as their main meal. 

Enjoy it

We all understand that you’re angry. Losing to Accrington Stanley must be very disappointing 

[hogesar 9,618]

6 hours ago, sgncfc said:

No mate, only 60 years or so, compared to you real old timers who are still harping on about the 1959 cup run 😄

2018-19 was probably the best football supporting season in my life. Last season, the way we played against Huddersfield and before Giannoulis was sent off against Bournemouth was probably the best I have ever seen a Norwich team play.

I saw most games in 1992-3, again most games in the Lambert years. We were good, but we didn't play football of that quality even then. The closest was actually under John Bond in the 1970s when we had two or three outstanding players; but even that wasn't as good as the "team play" under Farke.

I guess it depends why you support a football club and what you get out of it. I'd rather watch a 3-3 draw with Nottingham Forest under Farke than a 1-0 win against Hull City under Hughton, but I understand for some people results and achievement are everything.

I'm not surprised @komakino didn't bother replying to you on this. Well schooled.

[komakino 272]

7 hours ago, sgncfc said:

No mate, only 60 years or so, compared to you real old timers who are still harping on about the 1959 cup run 😄

2018-19 was probably the best football supporting season in my life. Last season, the way we played against Huddersfield and before Giannoulis was sent off against Bournemouth was probably the best I have ever seen a Norwich team play.

I saw most games in 1992-3, again most games in the Lambert years. We were good, but we didn't play football of that quality even then. The closest was actually under John Bond in the 1970s when we had two or three outstanding players; but even that wasn't as good as the "team play" under Farke.

I guess it depends why you support a football club and what you get out of it. I'd rather watch a 3-3 draw with Nottingham Forest under Farke than a 1-0 win against Hull City under Hughton, but I understand for some people results and achievement are everything.

Farke has to be judged at the highest level and so far at least, he has failed. Lambert, for example, did not try to get the squad to play football it wasn't good enough to play and neither did John Bond. While the football under Farke has been great at a lower level, it has been exactly that. Lower level. 

Football is a results business - you get no marks for trying. 

[Don J Demorr 162]

Perhaps I should start by saying that I know little about football except what I have read in this Forum, which I have done with interest for the last few months. What I do have is a lifetime of work experience in putting together teams of talented people to achieve complex and difficult objectives. What I am seeing here is Messrs Webber and Farke trying to do exactly that and I am very sympathetic to their struggle. I hope I can throw some light on what I see and maybe bring a different point of view to those of you who are quick to criticise.

It is generally accepted in business that the formation of a top-performing team will go through four phases: -

1)    Forming A group of people is brought together to achieve an objective. They begin to establish relationships within the group, to start to become a team. It’s typically a time of great hope and positivity.

2)    Storming This is the most dangerous phase in forming a successful team. Team leaders establish roles for each team member. This can bring out negative aspects of group behaviour. For example, it can lead to interpersonal conflict and “turf wars” as people stake out their part of the project for themselves, possibly to the detriment of others. It can lead to members of the team not understanding each other’s needs. Some people may even resist joining the team at all. This is a point where the newly gathered team is most likely to run into trouble.

3)    Norming This can be a welcome turning point. Team members buy into the process and begin to work together effectively to achieve the objective. They develop trust with each other. The team achieves better cohesion as people find ways to work together, despite any differences.

4)    Performing The team at last begins to excel. Having put the needs of the group ahead of personal needs, the team begins to focus on a shared goal.

In this Forum at least there is a clear division in deciding what your team is aiming to achieve. In business we say that “Quality is whatever the customer wants”. So, who are the customers and what do they want? Let’s leave the owners out of this and accept that the customers are the fans and followers of NCFC.

In this context, one group on this Forum has the idea that the objective must be to remain in the Premier League at all costs. To do this it is quite acceptable, even desirable, to match rival teams in the apparently successful strategy of physical intimidation, brute force and ignorance. My observation of this is that if this is so, Messrs Webber and Farke have picked the wrong people to form the team and it is not going to happen. Get used to it, people.

The second Forum group wish to see the club play good football – but to stay in the EPL. If this happens I’m sure everybody would be overjoyed, but you have to accept that for whatever reason it might not happen. This is always true not just for NCFC this season but for all teams in all seasons in this league.

As for an agreed objective, in business management, one of the most famous examples of a purpose definition is that of a famous US shipyard called for some reason “Newport News” Over many decades this extremely successful organisation had as their objective: -

“We build good ships. For profit if we can; at a loss if we must, but always good ships”

For NCFC this might translate as: -

“We play good football. We will win if we can; lose if we must, but always good football”

I see that this probably resonates with many of you NCFC supporters. Perhaps you might agree if this is true it matters not a jot whether your team is in EPL or the Championship – what you will get and what you will see is what you want, which is good football. You will go home happy.

So, back to the beginning, which is what your two managers are doing, and maybe why.

1)     Mr Webber and Mr Farke have slightly different but interlinked objectives. Mr Webber must create a top quality club. Mr Farke must create a top-quality team.

2)     The two of them have gathered an extraordinary group of players. They are of many nationalities, speak many languages and have different cultural backgrounds. This means that the Forming phase will take an unusually long time and indeed it is doing so for this and other reasons. You must be ready for this.

3)     Many of them are young men, not physically mature, not yet as physically strong as they will become and although highly talented (check the international callups) they will have not yet reached peak skills of their craft. You must wait for this, it will come.

What this means in team development terms is that this group of players is destined eventually to make a very highly capable and attractive team. But, you NCFC supporters, you might have to wait for this. In the meantime you might find that your team is relegated from the EFL, but in the great scheme of things does that matter?

It looks to me like W&F are very clever men playing an extremely promising long game. Please be patient. The boys are doing good. You will be proud. One day.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Don J Demorr

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

17 hours ago, Don J Demorr said:

Perhaps I should start by saying that I know little about football except what I have read in this Forum, which I have done with interest for the last few months. What I do have is a lifetime of work experience in putting together teams of talented people to achieve complex and difficult objectives. What I am seeing here is Messrs Webber and Farke trying to do exactly that and I am very sympathetic to their struggle. I hope I can throw some light on what I see and maybe bring a different point of view to those of you who are quick to criticise.

It is generally accepted in business that the formation of a top-performing team will go through four phases: -

1)    Forming A group of people is brought together to achieve an objective. They begin to establish relationships within the group, to start to become a team. It’s typically a time of great hope and positivity.

2)    Storming This is the most dangerous phase in forming a successful team. Team leaders establish roles for each team member. This can bring out negative aspects of group behaviour. For example, it can lead to interpersonal conflict and “turf wars” as people stake out their part of the project for themselves, possibly to the detriment of others. It can lead to members of the team not understanding each other’s needs. Some people may even resist joining the team at all. This is a point where the newly gathered team is most likely to run into trouble.

3)    Norming This can be a welcome turning point. Team members buy into the process and begin to work together effectively to achieve the objective. They develop trust with each other. The team achieves better cohesion as people find ways to work together, despite any differences.

4)    Performing The team at last begins to excel. Having put the needs of the group ahead of personal needs, the team begins to focus on a shared goal.

In this Forum at least there is a clear division in deciding what your team is aiming to achieve. In business we say that “Quality is whatever the customer wants”. So, who are the customers and what do they want? Let’s leave the owners out of this and accept that the customers are the fans and followers of NCFC.

In this context, one group on this Forum has the idea that the objective must be to remain in the Premier League at all costs. To do this it is quite acceptable, even desirable, to match rival teams in the apparently successful strategy of physical intimidation, brute force and ignorance. My observation of this is that if this is so, Messrs Webber and Farke have picked the wrong people to form the team and it is not going to happen. Get used to it, people.

The second Forum group wish to see the club play good football – but to stay in the EPL. If this happens I’m sure everybody would be overjoyed, but you have to accept that for whatever reason it might not happen. This is always true not just for NCFC this season but for all teams in all seasons in this league.

As for an agreed objective, in business management, one of the most famous examples of a purpose definition is that of a famous US shipyard called for some reason “Newport News” Over many decades this extremely successful organisation had as their objective: -

“We build good ships. For profit if we can; at a loss if we must, but always good ships”

For NCFC this might translate as: -

“We play good football. We will win if we can; lose if we must, but always good football”

I see that this probably resonates with many of you NCFC supporters. Perhaps you might agree if this is true it matters not a jot whether your team is in EPL or the Championship – what you will get and what you will see is what you want, which is good football. You will go home happy.

So, back to the beginning, which is what your two managers are doing, and maybe why.

1)     Mr Webber and Mr Farke have slightly different but interlinked objectives. Mr Webber must create a top quality club. Mr Farke must create a top-quality team.

2)     The two of them have gathered an extraordinary group of players. They are of many nationalities, speak many languages and have different cultural backgrounds. This means that the Forming phase will take an unusually long time and indeed it is doing so for this and other reasons. You must be ready for this.

3)     Many of them are young men, not physically mature, not yet as physically strong as they will become and although highly talented (check the international callups) they will have not yet reached peak skills of their craft. You must wait for this, it will come.

What this means in team development terms is that this group of players is destined eventually to make a very highly capable and attractive team. But, you NCFC supporters, you might have to wait for this. In the meantime you might find that your team is relegated from the EFL, but in the great scheme of things does that matter?

It looks to me like W&F are very clever men playing an extremely promising long game. Please be patient. The boys are doing good. You will be proud. One day.

Really interesting post. One problem is that if we get relegated we will probably lose some of these players, and perhaps even coaches and sporting directors. That is not unknown in 'normal' business, of course. Talented members of staff get poached by other companies. But normal companies can generally grow organically and reasonably slowly, and plan long-term with reasonable certainty.

They don't have the short-term imperatives forced on them by the boom and bust cycle of promotion and relegation, with the associated rises and falls in income and expenditure. There is no annual round of promotion and relegation between the Footsie 250 and the Footsie 100.

More broadly, arguments about the Norwich City model are to an extent irrelevant, since it is the only one possible with the current ownership, and there is no sign at all of the slightest impetus or effort from any fans to change that situation. Which is not to say the model won't be altered by the current or future ownership, if not to full-on billionaireship then perhaps to some kind of not-quite-so-poor-but-honest shared ownership/community scheme.

Either way, with or without that kind of change, the kind of organic growth you talk about seems to me the right approach for the club. But it does mean replacing lost talent with new talent, and especially in the highest reaches of the management/coaching structure.

[Don J Demorr 162]

Thank you, Mr Purple and those who have shown support for our conversation. I'd like to take up a couple of points from your interesting and thought-provoking posting.

You say: -

"But normal companies can generally grow organically and reasonably slowly, and plan long-term with reasonable certainty."

In that case I have never worked for one. From apprentice to Director I have spent all my time working on or managing huge projects, involving sometimes thousands of people. Each project is by definition boom and bust in itself and trying to manage a smooth transition of a labour force from one project to the next is even more so. Each project is itself a team and itself contains many smaller teams, each of which goes through the team life cycle as I have described. Boom and bust was my bread and butter.

You raise the question as to whether or not the NCFC team will achieve the desired outcome this season. Of course, if it does it is high fives and trebles all round. But as you say: -

"One problem is that if we get relegated we will probably lose some of these players, and perhaps even coaches and sporting directors."

This is interesting because it is not at all simple.

1. If the relegation is a catastrophic and humiliating disaster then there will be a bloodletting as you describe.
2. If the relegation is an honourable failure where everybody finishes with a good reputation and team spirit remains high then such carnage does not necessarily follow.

In scenario #2  NCFC will not be in the same place to make judgements and take decisions as it is now. All bets will be off and there will be an "agonising reappraisal".

Regardless of any contractual agreements as they exist now (about which I know nothing) some players will want to leave whereas others will be inclined to stay. Whether they do so or not depends at least to some extent on psychology as well as sympathetic management. Given a chance, by that time many of these young and impressionable men will have made themselves a new and happy life in Norwich, whichI am sure you will agree is one of the best places in the world in which to spend your existence. If they are made welcome, are appreciated, given respect and praise they might be inclined to take job satisfaction and life balance as of high value, at least for a year or two.

If, on the other hand they are denigrated, insulted and blamed they will be off like a shot. There are some keyboard bullies contibuting to this Forum who are doing exactly that. Not good, not clever and not helpful. Stop it.

As the man said "Plan for success but prepare for failure".

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Don J Demorr

[ron obvious 1,501]

What a wonderful thread. Makes wading through so much of the opinionated, ego-driven tosh on here worth while.

Beautifully argued (as ever) by Parma, although I'm not sure I agree with all its premisses. Equally good stuff from Mr. Demorr, though he doesn't perhaps take into account the loss of players such as Kabak & Normann upon relegation. Nevertheless the club would continue, its core values & philosophy intact.

What is a football club? See the late, great Brian Walden's interview with Roy Hattersley about his beloved Sheffield Wednesday to see what it isn't.

[Jim Smith 2,314]

On 02/10/2021 at 12:04, PurpleCanary said:

Why not? The club is organisationally very stable, financially in a good position, certainly compared to some potential rivals, will have parachute payments, and will presumably keep several of the 11 players who joined us this season, either permanently or on loan.

Added to which the recent history of the Championship is that clubs relegated from the EPL have a very good chance of going straight back up, as we have shown. Early days but WBA are top and Fulham fourth. An objective analysis of the facts would make us among the favourites to be promoted again.

I worry a bit about what you say in the latter part of your first paragraph Purple as in truth I can see very few of our signings this summer wanting to play for us in the championship next season. I could see it being quite a summer of upheaval. I don’t think Tzolis or Rashica joined to play championship football nor Normann or Kabak. I suppose PLM and Sargent might stick about but there must also be a question mark over whether Aarons and Todd (and possibly Kenny) have the stomach for another promotion attempt or the likes of Dimi. 

I suppose my fear this time is that failure again could have something  of the “end of an era” feel about it and it’s not even clear if Webber will still be around.

Finally, things may pick up this summer if we do go down it could be a heroic failure but there is also a quite real possibility that it could be a long, drawn out relegation in embarrassing circumstances. If that is the case there has to be a limit doesn’t there in terms of how often the fans are able to get themselves motivated for a championship season knowing that even if we go up this is what we have in store? I certainly feel a bit like that at the moment. 
 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

1 hour ago, Don J Demorr said:

Thank you, Mr Purple and those who have shown support for our conversation. I'd like to take up a couple of points from your interesting and thought-provoking posting.

You say: -

"But normal companies can generally grow organically and reasonably slowly, and plan long-term with reasonable certainty."

In that case I have never worked for one. From apprentice to Director I have spent all my time working on or managing huge projects, involving sometimes thousands of people. Each project is by definition boom and bust in itself and trying to manage a smooth transition of a labour force from one project to the next is even more so. Each project is itself a team and itself contains many smaller teams, each of which goes through the team life cycle as I have described. Boom and bust was my bread and butter.

You raise the question as to whether or not the NCFC team will achieve the desired outcome this season. Of course, if it does it is high fives and trebles all round. But as you say: -

"One problem is that if we get relegated we will probably lose some of these players, and perhaps even coaches and sporting directors."

This is interesting because it is not at all simple.

1. If the relegation is a catastrophic and humiliating disaster then there will be a bloodletting as you describe.
2. If the relegation is an honourable failure where everybody finishes with a good reputation and team spirit remains high then such carnage does not necessarily follow.

In scenario #2  NCFC will not be in the same place to make judgements and take decisions as it is now. All bets will be off and there will be an "agonising reappraisal".

Regardless of any contractual agreements as they exist now (about which I know nothing) some players will want to leave whereas others will be inclined to stay. Whether they do so or not depends at least to some extent on psychology as well as sympathetic management. Given a chance, by that time many of these young and impressionable men will have made themselves a new and happy life in Norwich, whichI am sure you will agree is one of the best places in the world in which to spend your existence. If they are made welcome, are appreciated, given respect and praise they might be inclined to take job satisfaction and life balance as of high value, at least for a year or two.

If, on the other hand they are denigrated, insulted and blamed they will be off like a shot. There are some keyboard bullies contibuting to this Forum who are doing exactly that. Not good, not clever and not helpful. Stop it.

As the man said "Plan for success but prepare for failure".

 

Don, your business experience sounds like the Big Bang 'project' world of tech, as opposed to the staid steady-state Footsie 100 company I worked for, but I may be wrong!

To be clear (and this ties in with Jim Smith's post) I deliberately used the word 'some' for the potential departure of players. As you say, it depends what kind of relegation. If I bet on football I would say the likeliest scenario is that we pick up points and get relegated but with a respectable total.

In which case bloodletting would probably be avoided. I can certainly see  some of the players we've brought in this summer staying on for a season in the Championship. But either way, a business analyst would say that the longer-term fundamentals of the club are in good shape.

[Don J Demorr 162]

Thank you again Mr Purple and one and all who have joined this conversation, which has been both civilised and agreeable.

I agree with you about the most likely outcome of the campaign but what do I know? As I stated at the outset, I know very little about football in general or NCFC in particular, so any assessment of mine is based on total ignorance! My contribution was about the psychological and physical process of the development and management of teams, which seems to have landed well with you all.

Thank you all for your interest but at this point I don't think I can contribute anything of further use to this Forum.

Time to check out and go back to lurking.

Best wishes to you all and to your Football Club.

 DJD.