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Parma Ham's gone mouldy

Where did it all go wrong Daniel, Stuart, Delia?

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3 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

The argument is simple Palace by paying these wages wracked up the 7th highest wage bill in the league and they are backed or underwritten to an extent that if they are relegated they are ok in the short term.

1. They decided that there wage bill wasn't sustainable which is why they let so many players go for free at the end of the season to replace them with younger, cheaper ones.

2. Not quite sure about the how/ whether/ the extent to which they are underwritten. It was stressed that with "the new investment" Steve Parish percentage ownership has not be diluted, suggesting no new share capital. Two directors, Browett and Hosking resigned in July, suggesting that at least some of his investment was in purchasing existing shares, with the rest presumably being loans.

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35 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

The issue we have is that we as supporters seem to no longer be prepared to accept the top 26 model.

 

I don't think that is the case- I just don't think fans are prepared to essentially write off every other season.

There would be nowhere this level of backlash if the team looked competitive. The issue is we came bottom 2 years ago with our lowest top flight points total and right now look on course to do the same or worse this time around. If we had a season where we fought, competed and went down I think most would accept that.

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2 minutes ago, komakino said:

There is an alternative - The majority shareholders sell their shares to a party that will invest and/or attract investment. It won't guarantee success, but it could avoid consistent failure. 

It isn't Smith & Jones or bust. 

Secondly, never believe what any player says. At least until after they are retired. Most footballers are mercenaries and are there to say nice things and take their wages. There is little to zero a player has a genuine affection for, expect maybe for local players who grew up supporting the club. The world has moved on since players retired and ran a Pub or a Post Office. 

Komakino, you've fell into the trap again that it is dead easy for Smith & Jones to sell their shares!  It isn't, any purchaser has to first offer to buy out the other near 40% at the same price offered to S&J.  This takes time, without a guaranteed end result.  In the current market, again as others have said, there is very little chance of any real interest even if S&J were truly looking to sell.  So I'm afraid it is S&J and / or the "community owenrship" approach, although I dare say S&J would say they see the position as the latter anyway!

Now can we stick to how we can move things forward accepting this position.  It is the only pragmatic way to go.  

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Hi guys, back again.

I think bear in mind so many other clubs now, most in the EPL have rich owners, even if those owners are not pumping in 100s of millions they are probably at least ensuring there is no cashflow issues. 

So what I mean is, you get promoted to the EPL, but you dont get any EPL TV money until part way through the season, so if you buying players or increasing wages, that money has to come from existing cashflow.

I think its always going to be hard for Norwich to overcome this with your current ownership.

On your league performances, a change of manager might be prudent, but again I can understand why you would want to not make that move, as your manager has proven already he knows how to get promoted from the Championship.

When you played us two seasons ago vs your performance against us this season, I think you played better two seasons ago, as to the reasons, no idea, as I dont watch you guys other than when you play us.  No doubt at some point you will hit some form, its just a question of when and how long for.

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40 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't think that is the case- I just don't think fans are prepared to essentially write off every other season.

There would be nowhere this level of backlash if the team looked competitive. The issue is we came bottom 2 years ago with our lowest top flight points total and right now look on course to do the same or worse this time around. If we had a season where we fought, competed and went down I think most would accept that.

Completely agree with this. I think we're seeing discontent because of the manner of the performances as much as anything. Just one or two draws in there and it'd be a different landscape.

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37 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Komakino, you've fell into the trap again that it is dead easy for Smith & Jones to sell their shares!  It isn't, any purchaser has to first offer to buy out the other near 40% at the same price offered to S&J.  This takes time, without a guaranteed end result.  In the current market, again as others have said, there is very little chance of any real interest even if S&J were truly looking to sell.  So I'm afraid it is S&J and / or the "community owenrship" approach, although I dare say S&J would say they see the position as the latter anyway!

Now can we stick to how we can move things forward accepting this position.  It is the only pragmatic way to go.  

Yes. I also don't think there is any immediate prospect of this, but just to explain some options and requirements in a takeover bid, given it is not quite as simple as is sometimes painted.

In what generally would be a friendly takeover someone who bought S&J's 53 per cent majority stake would have to offer to buy everyone else shares, and at the price paid to S&J. Which means, and I have often seen this suggested should happen, that if S&J in effect gave their shares away to the buyer at a nominal price of, say, even as much as £1 a share, that is what everyone else would get, even though they had paid £25 or £30 or even £100.

Minority shareholders could refuse to sell, of course, but if the buyer reached 90 per cent then they would be forced to buy the remaining 10 per cent, whether they wanted to, or the owners wanted to sell. And in any event none of this money would go to the club.

In what generally would be a hostile takeover someone who wanted to destabilise the owners' position would start buying up minority stakes until they reached 30 per cent, at which point they would have to offer to buy out everyone else, and at whatever was the highest price they'd paid. So if most had accepted £30 but the owner of one crucial block had got £150 then that is what would have to be offered to the rest, including S&J. And again  no money would go to the club.

To put money into the club, the tycoon would have to buy new shares. About 750,000 would provide them with a comfortable majority, given the current overall figure of around 630,000. And there is provision for the club to create such a large tranche of new shares, should this eventuality arise. Another option would be a mix of buying existing and new shares.

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1 hour ago, king canary said:

I don't think that is the case- I just don't think fans are prepared to essentially write off every other season.

There would be nowhere this level of backlash if the team looked competitive. The issue is we came bottom 2 years ago with our lowest top flight points total and right now look on course to do the same or worse this time around. If we had a season where we fought, competed and went down I think most would accept that.

I cerainly would.

 

It is the lack of 'going for it' that destroys matchdays for me. We are used to losing games unlike some in the PL, but there is losing games and losing games and watching us losing so timidly is pretty soul destroying.

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7 minutes ago, robert choice said:

I cerainly would.

 

It is the lack of 'going for it' that destroys matchdays for me. We are used to losing games unlike some in the PL, but there is losing games and losing games and watching us losing so timidly is pretty soul destroying.

You sense that this isn't sustainable - how many "written off" seasons would fans put up with before season ticket sales started dwindling?

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44 minutes ago, kirku said:

Completely agree with this. I think we're seeing discontent because of the manner of the performances as much as anything. Just one or two draws in there and it'd be a different landscape.

I think especially after there was lots of people banging the 'this time will be different' drum in the build up to this season. The idea was 'ok we went down but we bounce back stronger.' So to see the team actually look worse is a huge kick in the nuts to fans who sat back and didn't complain during the last Premier League season. It does obviously raise the question of is this it for us at the top level? If we go down and bounce back up again will it be another season of being the leagues whipping boys? 

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15 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think especially after there was lots of people banging the 'this time will be different' drum in the build up to this season. The idea was 'ok we went down but we bounce back stronger.' So to see the team actually look worse is a huge kick in the nuts to fans who sat back and didn't complain during the last Premier League season. It does obviously raise the question of is this it for us at the top level? If we go down and bounce back up again will it be another season of being the leagues whipping boys? 

It's thoroughly disheartening. Project Restart was bad enough but the early stages of the pandemic killed most of my interest in football for a while. Last season provided great respite from the "outside world" but I already feel numb to this season, in much the same way as I did with PR.

 

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On 26/09/2021 at 13:44, lake district canary said:

Personally am fed up with seeing the name "Buendia" written on here. We move on and we build a team around what we have. If it's not good enough, so be it.  

I'm also a bit fed up of people talking about "failure" too.  The only failure I can see is the lack of patience being shown by some fans to wait and see how things develop - as they will. Failure to get any points? Yes, OK, fair enough, but the season cannot be regarded as a failure after just six games. 

 

 

 

You really don’t do yourself any favours LDC. If you are fed up reading “Buendia” and we should build a team around what we have is an injustice to Buendia. He was what made this team tick.He was the icing on the promotion cake!

And you don’t like the word “failure”. That’s an injustice to the fans who have supported NCFC through thick and thin. How else can the current side be considered? They are poor, very poor, to say the least, and have gone 16EPL matches without a win! That is a failure of the highest degree! They have a manager with an EPL win ratio of 11.3%! That is a failure of the enth degree. It may not be his fault, but Webber hires and fires amongst his many other assets, like the group he runs to find players to bring to the club, which, in essence is “failure” at all points, just like selling your star asset following promotion was “failure”. Are you telling me the non immediate replacement of Skipp wasn’t “failure”?

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3 hours ago, king canary said:

I think most £20m players come with £20m player wage demands and there is the question of how willing are they to sign the relegation wage drop clauses.

I think that it is because of the relegation release clause and the high probability that it will be activated (based on history) is why very few £20 million players move to newly promoted clubs. Moving to a newly promoted team would be the lowest premier league choice (perhaps excluding teams like Villa and Newcastle, who should be established PL teams anyway).

I might be missing lots of £20 million transfers to newly promoted teams in the summer transfer windows in recent years, but I can't think of any.

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1 hour ago, kirku said:

You sense that this isn't sustainable - how many "written off" seasons would fans put up with before season ticket sales started dwindling?

Unfortuntely NCFC has a very easily led support base.

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52 minutes ago, robert choice said:

Unfortuntely NCFC has a very easily led support base.

Is your support base very easily led robert?

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4 hours ago, shefcanary said:

avoid consistent failure. 

Really? Do you really think that we have consistently failed? We have failed to live up to your expectations. 😝

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1 hour ago, robert choice said:

Unfortuntely NCFC has a very easily led support base.

Only if the definition of 'very easily led' is that these fans don't agree with your views and come to different conclusions.

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42 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Only if the definition of 'very easily led' is that these fans don't agree with your views and come to different conclusions.

That's their problem not mine.

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1 hour ago, wcorkcanary said:

Really? Do you really think that we have consistently failed? We have failed to live up to your expectations. 😝

 

Clapping the team off when they lose badly?

 

So yes.

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22 minutes ago, robert choice said:

That's their problem not mine.

Which I see is your standard response to the idea that your views may not be universally shared by fans. It loses something by blanket repetition:

''If you can't see it that's your problem not mine''.

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7 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

I think we're slightly at cross-purposes here. The question I'm asking is not primarily financial, but why such a player would come to Norwich. Take Armstrong for example. I'm not sure how seriously we were in for him, but if you were him you'd pick Southampton over us at this moment in time, wouldn't you? On a similar note, it seems it took the whole window to persuade Normann and Kabak to come here, and presumably part of that was because they were waiting for offers from more established teams that didn't materialise. The idea that someone better than Normann, Gilmour and PLM combined  would been keen to come when a player of Normann's quality only agreed to sign at the very last minute seems a little unrealistic to me.

So, at the moment, our level is to attract players like Sargent, Rashica and Tzolis, who are further on in their professional careers than, say, Maddison, Buendía or Godfrey were when we bought them, but still far from the finished article. And because they are therefore all a bit of a gamble, you spread your bets by buying a few players of that quality in the assumption that the sale of one of them will eventually pay for what you spent on all of them. In the event that we survive this season (obviously that looks unlikely at the moment, but we can but hope), perhaps then we're in a position to go up a level and start competing for the sort of player you're talking about.

Obviously when you've played six and lost six it's difficult to sense the club is making any progress, but the players we've brought in this summer are a cut above those we brought in last time we were promoted, I would say.

I get your point. You obviously have to draw your shortlist from players who would be willing to sign. Before you even approach their club you have a quiet word with their agent and find out if it's even a possibility.

You have to be the only club willing to pay enough. You're still limited to an extent, but surely you can find a few options if you're willing to throw double the money at the transfer fee.

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2 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Which I see is your standard response to the idea that your views may not be universally shared by fans. It loses something by blanket repetition:

''If you can't see it that's your problem not mine''.

Love the blue crayon work by the way.

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You know Parma whilst i read all your posts it leads me to the old saying "**** baffles brains" and the other that those who can do do. those who cannot teach and those who cannot criticise.   Why dont you phone the club and offer your services cause it obviously so easy to you.  maybe everyone in here

should be less sycophantic. If its so easy why are you not sorting it out?

Edited by mastoola

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No one can say we haven't "progressed" - we are now buying £8-£10m players, and several of them. That's progress from when Farke/Webber arrived, and we're doing it without potentially bankrupting the club with Naismith and Klose type signings.

Whatever happens this season (and remember, we are still only 6 games in, and our manager still believes we will stay up) we will still be in a much stronger poistion at the start of next season than when they arrived. And we will still be top 26.

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12 hours ago, mastoola said:

You know Parma whilst i read all your posts it leads me to the old saying "**** baffles brains" and the other that those who can do do. those who cannot teach and those who cannot criticise.   Why dont you phone the club and offer your services cause it obviously so easy to you.  maybe everyone in here

should be less sycophantic. If its so easy why are you not sorting it out?

You know mastoola whilst i read all your posts it leads me to the old saying "he's so dense light bends around him"

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21 hours ago, Badger said:

1. They decided that there wage bill wasn't sustainable which is why they let so many players go for free at the end of the season to replace them with younger, cheaper ones.

There was good piece in the Athletic before the transfer window started stating how Palace had probably, through sheer dumb luck, ended up at the perfect time to do this. Covid having depressed wages and transfer fees meant they were able to likely improve their squad while probably making a solid dent into their wage bill. 

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14 hours ago, Petriix said:

I get your point. You obviously have to draw your shortlist from players who would be willing to sign. Before you even approach their club you have a quiet word with their agent and find out if it's even a possibility.

You have to be the only club willing to pay enough. You're still limited to an extent, but surely you can find a few options if you're willing to throw double the money at the transfer fee.

I guess Ajer is the best example of this. Obviously it's a bit early to tell if we did better to wait for Kabak, but had we been willing to take the route you recommend we could have had him through the door and in the building, as Paddy Davitt likes to say, in early June. 

Enjoying the civilised discussion, btw. Cheers.

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15 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

In other news a Moldovan side has won 2-1 at Real Madrid in the Champions League. Why can't we be Sheriff Tiraspol.?🤩

Does this mean there is a new Sheriff in town ? 

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Following deeper thought about the OP @Parma Ham's gone mouldy what do you make to the the claims that last season we still didn't perform againt the "prem" teams, Watford, Bournemouth and Brentford.  An anonomly or a useful predictor,  that might have been better heeded by the recruitment team? Maybe there is some blame to be apportioned here?

Edited by Taiwan Canary

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