Norwich City are a metaphor

[The Real Buh 3,765]

With all our woes recently I can’t help but just view our club as a metaphor, a shining example, why elite football in this country just doesn’t work
 

We’ve been stuck in this championship/premier league purgatory and it doesn’t really have an end in sight. Or is there? The way out, in my opinion, is the European super league. Although it was oh-so-grand to see Gary Neville (who by the way has funded a club that has artificially blasted its way up the league unfairly because of a cash injection) and the rest crying their eyes out and going on about the “beautiful game” “anyone can be a Leicester” the bottom line is they are keeping us, and clubs like us, around for cannon fodder for the big clubs. An opponent to show the new customers on Far East Asia.

Sure, you can be plucky Brentford, or even plucky Bournemouth… for a while. Even we did it! But this league catches up with you. It eats you up and spits you out.

it doesn’t last, even when you think it will. 

this season is just a metaphor for me that we need the European super league as soon as possible so the remaining clubs can go from cannon fodder for billionaire criminal plaything clubs to creating our own brand of football.

btw this is not withstanding the fact we’ve been abjectly awful in pretty much all areas since the start of this season. This isn’t that hard to explain btw. emi out, skipp out = we can’t play. 

[Essjayess 307]

I do agree with you quite a lot in parts Buh, but i dont know if a Euro super league would be  an answer. For sure there is a definite pattern to how the Prem works season on season. Below the elite super rich are clubs that survive for quite a few seasons...the current examples  like Palace, Soton, Burnley etc..but yes, eventually they succumb and drop down. Some get stuck in the Champs for many seasons...Stoke, Derby etc...others fall even further and find it hard to even get back into the Champs, never mind the Prem...Sunderland, Portsmouth and so on.

Then there are a few specialists who are the yo-yo type...City and WBA...both of whom have had a few short runs in the Prem but often  get relegated first season, Fulham another who are quickly  becoming similar. Its just that in recent seasons City are taking this yo yo situation to ultimate extremes...how can a club romp the Champs twice...with 94 and 97 points..but be utter failure on their Prem return..21 points last time out and this time?..even 21 points seems a very long point to reach right now.

I actually have some reservations about your Buendia / Skipp thoughts...mine being that do we really think City's current plight would have drastically  changed if those two were still playing for us?...i dont think that it would have that much.

It feels like a mix of quite a few reasons why we are where we are right now but i certainly dont feel its that all the new guys are just plain not good enough. With so many new guys it sure needs about half a season at least...yes that much...to develop and learn and gel into a team capable of turning DF's way of wanting to play as a team to produce a regular enough amount of points to survive in the Prem..which of course leaves us to far behind to  make catch up succeed.

And conversely, it feels like DF's demand for City to play in a certain way is another major factor in our current  situation..its the ultimate good / bad, right / wrong, dark / light scenario..awesome for storming the Champs but derisive for staying in the Prem. Many fans feel his demand for zonal defense allied with the softly passing routine of posession starting from Krul onwards is our downfall...well, its DF's job to make that work or adopt a new approach  that will work..and yes hes on borrowed time...perhaps a bit longer than most managers we usually have...but ultimately if nothing works the Board will act.

[Norfolk Dan 336]

So remove the top 6 or 8 into a euro super League. 

You then have 18/20 teams in the top national division. We will still be in the bottom half and still have to manage the same risks. 

If we want this to change then the whole game has to change, rules of salary etc. Currently we have the same model as F1. More money the more wins. 

We will need to go to a place where the only advantage is your commercial activity and that will still lend itself to the club's with the big grounds and London based. 

Suggest we just accept what we have and understand that life is about cycles and seasons... This is clearly a stormy winter... 

[komakino 282]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

With all our woes recently I can’t help but just view our club as a metaphor, a shining example, why elite football in this country just doesn’t work
 

We’ve been stuck in this championship/premier league purgatory and it doesn’t really have an end in sight. Or is there? The way out, in my opinion, is the European super league. Although it was oh-so-grand to see Gary Neville (who by the way has funded a club that has artificially blasted its way up the league unfairly because of a cash injection) and the rest crying their eyes out and going on about the “beautiful game” “anyone can be a Leicester” the bottom line is they are keeping us, and clubs like us, around for cannon fodder for the big clubs. An opponent to show the new customers on Far East Asia.

Sure, you can be plucky Brentford, or even plucky Bournemouth… for a while. Even we did it! But this league catches up with you. It eats you up and spits you out.

it doesn’t last, even when you think it will. 

this season is just a metaphor for me that we need the European super league as soon as possible so the remaining clubs can go from cannon fodder for billionaire criminal plaything clubs to creating our own brand of football.

btw this is not withstanding the fact we’ve been abjectly awful in pretty much all areas since the start of this season. This isn’t that hard to explain btw. emi out, skipp out = we can’t play. 

An ESL in whatever form will not hide the fact that the ownership of Norwich City is not compatible with top level football, therefore what are they (still) doing here? If they loved the club as much as they make out, why not sell to someone who has greater ambitions? 

The EPL is a cruel place to be when results are going your way, but it is down to the club to stop that. 

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

1 hour ago, The Real Buh said:

With all our woes recently I can’t help but just view our club as a metaphor, a shining example, why elite football in this country just doesn’t work
 

We’ve been stuck in this championship/premier league purgatory and it doesn’t really have an end in sight. Or is there? The way out, in my opinion, is the European super league. Although it was oh-so-grand to see Gary Neville (who by the way has funded a club that has artificially blasted its way up the league unfairly because of a cash injection) and the rest crying their eyes out and going on about the “beautiful game” “anyone can be a Leicester” the bottom line is they are keeping us, and clubs like us, around for cannon fodder for the big clubs. An opponent to show the new customers on Far East Asia.

Sure, you can be plucky Brentford, or even plucky Bournemouth… for a while. Even we did it! But this league catches up with you. It eats you up and spits you out.

it doesn’t last, even when you think it will. 

this season is just a metaphor for me that we need the European super league as soon as possible so the remaining clubs can go from cannon fodder for billionaire criminal plaything clubs to creating our own brand of football.

btw this is not withstanding the fact we’ve been abjectly awful in pretty much all areas since the start of this season. This isn’t that hard to explain btw. emi out, skipp out = we can’t play. 

Norwich gladly take the money each time, go to the champs and storm that. How is that fair on champs teams who don’t get prem money?

[Kenny Foggo 1,194]

Football is definitely not the game I grew to love in the 70s first in the River End and then the Barclay. Its turned into a sanitised version more akin to visiting the cinema. No longer get the rush I use too...

[The Real Buh 3,765]

6 hours ago, Essjayess said:

I do agree with you quite a lot in parts Buh, but i dont know if a Euro super league would be  an answer. For sure there is a definite pattern to how the Prem works season on season. Below the elite super rich are clubs that survive for quite a few seasons...the current examples  like Palace, Soton, Burnley etc..but yes, eventually they succumb and drop down. Some get stuck in the Champs for many seasons...Stoke, Derby etc...others fall even further and find it hard to even get back into the Champs, never mind the Prem...Sunderland, Portsmouth and so on.

Then there are a few specialists who are the yo-yo type...City and WBA...both of whom have had a few short runs in the Prem but often  get relegated first season, Fulham another who are quickly  becoming similar. Its just that in recent seasons City are taking this yo yo situation to ultimate extremes...how can a club romp the Champs twice...with 94 and 97 points..but be utter failure on their Prem return..21 points last time out and this time?..even 21 points seems a very long point to reach right now.

I actually have some reservations about your Buendia / Skipp thoughts...mine being that do we really think City's current plight would have drastically  changed if those two were still playing for us?...i dont think that it would have that much.

It feels like a mix of quite a few reasons why we are where we are right now but i certainly dont feel its that all the new guys are just plain not good enough. With so many new guys it sure needs about half a season at least...yes that much...to develop and learn and gel into a team capable of turning DF's way of wanting to play as a team to produce a regular enough amount of points to survive in the Prem..which of course leaves us to far behind to  make catch up succeed.

And conversely, it feels like DF's demand for City to play in a certain way is another major factor in our current  situation..its the ultimate good / bad, right / wrong, dark / light scenario..awesome for storming the Champs but derisive for staying in the Prem. Many fans feel his demand for zonal defense allied with the softly passing routine of posession starting from Krul onwards is our downfall...well, its DF's job to make that work or adopt a new approach  that will work..and yes hes on borrowed time...perhaps a bit longer than most managers we usually have...but ultimately if nothing works the Board will act.

Good points here

[The Real Buh 3,765]

5 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Norwich gladly take the money each time, go to the champs and storm that. How is that fair on champs teams who don’t get prem money?

Maybe we need a new model? A new way of doing things? Our own brand?

imagine it, genuine clubs, real fans, no VAR, financial responsibility built in. That’s the alternative we should strive for.

[king canary 8,757]

8 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

With all our woes recently I can’t help but just view our club as a metaphor, a shining example, why elite football in this country just doesn’t work
 

We’ve been stuck in this championship/premier league purgatory and it doesn’t really have an end in sight. Or is there? The way out, in my opinion, is the European super league. Although it was oh-so-grand to see Gary Neville (who by the way has funded a club that has artificially blasted its way up the league unfairly because of a cash injection) and the rest crying their eyes out and going on about the “beautiful game” “anyone can be a Leicester” the bottom line is they are keeping us, and clubs like us, around for cannon fodder for the big clubs. An opponent to show the new customers on Far East Asia.

Sure, you can be plucky Brentford, or even plucky Bournemouth… for a while. Even we did it! But this league catches up with you. It eats you up and spits you out.

it doesn’t last, even when you think it will. 

this season is just a metaphor for me that we need the European super league as soon as possible so the remaining clubs can go from cannon fodder for billionaire criminal plaything clubs to creating our own brand of football.

btw this is not withstanding the fact we’ve been abjectly awful in pretty much all areas since the start of this season. This isn’t that hard to explain btw. emi out, skipp out = we can’t play. 

Yeah, I agree football really needs the big clubs to **** off at this point but only if those left commit to creating something equitable out of the ashes.

 

[hogesar 10,765]

9 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Norwich gladly take the money each time, go to the champs and storm that. How is that fair on champs teams who don’t get prem money?

Well its fair because we earn the money by getting promoted in the first place. Its hardly our fault Derby can spend £100 million over a few seasons and not get close to achieving what we have.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,261]

9 hours ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

Norwich gladly take the money each time, go to the champs and storm that. How is that fair on champs teams who don’t get prem money?

I hate this argument. Parachute payments are earned through sporting success. We didn't have parachute payments when we went up in 2018 either. What I don't consider fair is how a club can have a super rich owner who earned his money outside of football and then have that be used to fund a club. There are so many absolutely non-entity nothing clubs having success right now like Palace, Watford, Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth etc and they owe it all to one rich mans money, nothing to do with them as a club, their identity, their fanbase or history as a club, they are just playthings for bored rich people and if it wasn't for their sugar daddies they'd all be scrapping around in the lower leagues getting 10k fans in their stadiums. 

I just don't understand how people can think that money used from parachute payments earned through sporting success are unfair but that money used from say one man exploiting low income workers at Sports Direct or 100's of millions worth of money from a hereditarily rich oligarch royal family from the middle east who have never worked a day in their lives is somehow fair and okay when that money was acquired outside of football. 

Pretty much every other owner in the Championship is 100x wealthier than our owners and they just complain that it's unfair that they can't use money earned outside of the sport to fund success because clubs that have earned their money through sporting success get to spend more. If anything for me FFP doesn't go far enough, look at Derby for an example of why it's not strict enough already

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

11 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Maybe we need a new model? A new way of doing things? Our own brand?

imagine it, genuine clubs, real fans, no VAR, financial responsibility built in. That’s the alternative we should strive for.

Probably best following a different sport then 

[Dr Greenthumb 794]

7 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I hate this argument. Parachute payments are earned through sporting success. We didn't have parachute payments when we went up in 2018 either. What I don't consider fair is how a club can have a super rich owner who earned his money outside of football and then have that be used to fund a club. There are so many absolutely non-entity nothing clubs having success right now like Palace, Watford, Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth etc and they owe it all to one rich mans money, nothing to do with them as a club, their identity, their fanbase or history as a club, they are just playthings for bored rich people and if it wasn't for their sugar daddies they'd all be scrapping around in the lower leagues getting 10k fans in their stadiums. 

I just don't understand how people can think that money used from parachute payments earned through sporting success are unfair but that money used from say one man exploiting low income workers at Sports Direct or 100's of millions worth of money from a hereditarily rich oligarch royal family from the middle east who have never worked a day in their lives is somehow fair and okay when that money was acquired outside of football. 

Pretty much every other owner in the Championship is 100x wealthier than our owners and they just complain that it's unfair that they can't use money earned outside of the sport to fund success because clubs that have earned their money through sporting success get to spend more. If anything for me FFP doesn't go far enough, look at Derby for an example of why it's not strict enough already

“Sporting success”. Getting 4 years of payments for failing to stay in a league is not a success.

[robert choice 24]

Norwich used to be famous for our 'pluckiness' but not anymore. S&J have killed the old Norfolk spirit and replaced it with a homogenous image of squeakiness and an acceptance of being 'inferior'.

 

 

[king canary 8,757]

9 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

I hate this argument. Parachute payments are earned through sporting success. We didn't have parachute payments when we went up in 2018 either. What I don't consider fair is how a club can have a super rich owner who earned his money outside of football and then have that be used to fund a club. There are so many absolutely non-entity nothing clubs having success right now like Palace, Watford, Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth etc and they owe it all to one rich mans money, nothing to do with them as a club, their identity, their fanbase or history as a club, they are just playthings for bored rich people and if it wasn't for their sugar daddies they'd all be scrapping around in the lower leagues getting 10k fans in their stadiums. 

I just don't understand how people can think that money used from parachute payments earned through sporting success are unfair but that money used from say one man exploiting low income workers at Sports Direct or 100's of millions worth of money from a hereditarily rich oligarch royal family from the middle east who have never worked a day in their lives is somehow fair and okay when that money was acquired outside of football. 

Pretty much every other owner in the Championship is 100x wealthier than our owners and they just complain that it's unfair that they can't use money earned outside of the sport to fund success because clubs that have earned their money through sporting success get to spend more. If anything for me FFP doesn't go far enough, look at Derby for an example of why it's not strict enough already

Neither of them are fair.

Parachute payments came in due to the financial incontinence of clubs in the top flight and Premier League greed meaning the gap between the top league and the rest is so wide. All these super rich owners in the Championship are largely a result of the same thing. 

Parachute payments are a **** idea but they also are kind of needed once you put clubs in a position that relegation means a revenue drop of £100m odd. 

[Hank shoots Skyler 2,094]

But why aren't Brentford a metaphor?

[Michael Starr 571]

I like the idea of a large 40 team European Premier League but only if it has 10 relegation slots and possibilities for the 5 main European leagues to gain entry into it by finishing top 2 in their national league. Teams only play each other once. They get 20 home games and 20 away games and it's luck of the draw who you draw where. The national leagues get a restructure as tier 1 to 4. I also love the idea of a MEGA CUP. All professional clubs in the hat around European. Imagine Luton Town drawing Barcelona at home.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Michael Starr

[Badger 2,745]

19 hours ago, Norfolk Dan said:

So remove the top 6 or 8 into a euro super League. 

You then have 18/20 teams in the top national division. We will still be in the bottom half and still have to manage the same risks. 

If you took the top 8 out of the league, we wouldn't be in the bottom half of the of the next 20 teams.

[robert choice 24]

13 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

Maybe we need a new model? A new way of doing things? Our own brand?

imagine it, genuine clubs, real fans, no VAR, financial responsibility built in. That’s the alternative we should strive for.

Get along to watch Wroxham. Great local club with a few NCFC connected people involved.

 

Getting muddy for the joy of it.

[Norfolk Dan 336]

30 minutes ago, Badger said:

If you took the top 8 out of the league, we wouldn't be in the bottom half of the of the next 20 teams.

Care to explain that... Cause reading that we would be 12th and still in the bottom half by my counting. 

[Badger 2,745]

18 minutes ago, Norfolk Dan said:

Care to explain that... Cause reading that we would be 12th and still in the bottom half by my counting. 

I'm using this below from Swiss Ramble. this would have us 10th after the top 8 are removed. I suspect that we would be higher than this as these figures include TV revenue. Ours was lower in this year because we were bottom. 

TBH, if the top 8 left, the TV would change considerably. What we really need is a table of revenue not including TV - do you have one?

[Badger 2,745]

52 minutes ago, Norfolk Dan said:

Care to explain that... Cause reading that we would be 12th and still in the bottom half by my counting.

This is a poor proxy for non-TV revenue, but it is the best I can find atm. It is further flawed by the fact that our revenue + that of Villa and Sheffield Utd are all the revenues from the championship not from the PL, so presumably we would be slightly higher.

This would have us 7th, even using the championship figures, if the top 8 are excluded.

I would be interested if you have other figures.

 

[dylanisabaddog 6,147]

Norwich City is singular. Your title should read 'Norwich City is a metaphor' 

[dylanisabaddog 6,147]

5 hours ago, robert choice said:

Get along to watch Wroxham. Great local club with a few NCFC connected people involved.

 

Getting muddy for the joy of it.

They are paid

[robert choice 24]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

They are paid

Yes they are.

[KernowCanary 214]

Back in 2011 we were really establishing ourselves as a Premier League team, then after the 2014 relegation, it’s been bouncing up and down like a basketball between the two leagues. Just where did it all go so wrong?.

I still remember it like yesterday on Friday night, of the opening game of our previous Premier League season and went down to the pub to watch our opener against Liverpool. Unfortunately a lot of the regulars there who took a liking towards me, and inducted me into their social group are Liverpool fans, so more the fool me not staying at home. Every time that ball hit the back of our net, I was like “Well, this is definitely the perfect forecast of our season!”, my friends at the pub said to me like “You are playing the best team in the world right now and the favourites to become champions!”. My reply was “Well, I appreciate everything you are saying, but there is no sign of desire to put up a fight, apart from the goal we got back. Still, at least that Dafabet sponsor looks nice on the new shirt!”.

Then came the win against City and I was optimistic, only for reality to come crashing back down like a ton of bricks.

When we returned to the big time and ended up playing Liverpool as the opener yet again, it felt like Groundhog Day of that night in the pub watching us get soundly beat. Yet again, we shown no fight.

As a Norwich supporter since 1997, I haven’t been around to enjoy our happier times, but all I ask for is for us to play well regardless of the results, as the points needed will soon follow, but right now we couldn’t fight our way out of a paper bag.

Edited September 27, 2021 by KernowCanary

[The Real Buh 3,765]

20 hours ago, Hank shoots Skyler said:

But why aren't Brentford a metaphor?

They just aren’t a metaphor yet. It’s their time and fair play to them.

[king canary 8,757]

10 hours ago, KernowCanary said:

Back in 2011 we were really establishing ourselves as a Premier League team, then after the 2014 relegation, it’s been bouncing up and down like a basketball between the two leagues. Just where did it all go so wrong?.

In my opinion, the gap between the top end of the Championship and the bottom end of the Premier League has grown since then due to the ever expanding finances of the Premier League.

In 2011 you could buy a striker with 15/16 Championship goals in the prime of his career for £3m. Now that sort of player is costing £10m+. We bought Leeds best midfielder in January for about £1m, Brightons best player for £1.5m. A transfer budget of £10-15m stretched so much further then that it does now, yet our parameters haven't moved with it.

 

[hogesar 10,765]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

In my opinion, the gap between the top end of the Championship and the bottom end of the Premier League has grown since then due to the ever expanding finances of the Premier League.

In 2011 you could buy a striker with 15/16 Championship goals in the prime of his career for £3m. Now that sort of player is costing £10m+. We bought Leeds best midfielder in January for about £1m, Brightons best player for £1.5m. A transfer budget of £10-15m stretched so much further then that it does now, yet our parameters haven't moved with it.

 

I agree, but the real wake up call for me was the 19/20 season to realise how big the gulf was.

We went up playing some of the best football i've ever watched at Championship level and were capable of beating teams regardless of their style, press intensity, sitting back in 2 lines of 4 etc etc.

We went up and I had belief that squad was good enough to be really competitive at Prem level; most will remember I was a pretty big fan of signing most of that squad onto new contracts etc. Look how wrong I was - the quality gap is just so big.

And whilst I won't diminish the achievements of last season because it was still a huge ask from Farke and co to pick up and go again with mostly the same players - I do think we'll see more of the same teams going up and down for the most part as no-one at championship level can compete regularly without the Prem money.