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Ken Hairy

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Just watched the Normann interview.  Kinda back to where i was after Watford now lol.  He has absolute belief and talked really well.

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I hate that every comment on here that i'm posting is so negative now but I give Farke the Burnley game and if still nothing then get rid, I have no Farkin clue who we could get but it's driving me up the wall to see this team underperform week in week out at this level, I just want to see someone else have a go at this point, we're heading downwards anyway at this rate anyway unfortunately.

Edited by robertociNCFC

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I don't believe firing Farke is the way to go, at least not right now. Hiring a new coach will not work wonders. Maybe a small morale boost (probably for the fans rather than the players). I think the most important question is not if the fans think Farke is the right man for the job. It is whether the players believe it or not. A series of tough games is behind us and an improvement both in performance and in results should be expected. A decision to sack a headcoach should only be taken after some serious consideration and not in the heat of the moment.

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40 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

No, we cannot afford £80K for one player a week, which is his new wage at Villa. If we paid him that, you can safely bet we'd have to up the wages of practically everyone else in the team otherwise the team spirit

Matching Villa is not something we would've had to do though, just give him what he's worth here and keep him happy.

Plus he's on around £65-70k not £80k if you look at statistic tables and not initial reports which are always rounded up to sensationalise moves.

That's practically the same as what we're paying Brandon Williams.  So your point falls down a litte.

Even if we added 25k/Week EXTRA it's only 1.3m for the season.. That's absolute peanuts, we could've tripled his wages when you have 100m+ pay cheque coming in for survival.  Plus it's proven fact how we routinely fail to win when he's out.

£1.3m We've probably spent that on signing/agent/medical/travel/legal fee's on other signings.  Think of the numerous signings coming in.  You don't think Kabak is on at least 60k? Normann?  Sargent?  There's transfer fee's and additional wages, not to mention the absolute carnage it's done with our squad balance and finding out who's most suited.

40 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Relegated clubs selling their best players is nothing new. A promoted club selling their best player is unusual, mainly as usually their best player got sold before that point.

But the reality is we've sold our greatest player (potentially ever!) when we could've just paid him what he's worth and it would've been a drip in the ocean vs prem money.  He has no allegiances to Villa, it was just to progress his career/raise income. He could be free to leave at the end of the season if we can't afford his wages - that's how the system usually works as you've stated above.

The point is, what vibes are we sending out to wantaway players, fans, media and pundits when they all appear to believe that we have little ambition to survive in this league.  I'm asking as those promoted around us are holding their assets AND still able to build. 

Brentford spent a little more than us, Watford less. But the difference is they have a mentality to give this league a go, and get at teams with belief.  They were both promoted with a squad committed to the cause yet we decided to sell , dismantle and are still rebuilding five games within the season.

Even after winning the league last season, fan attentions turned on Aarons, Emi & Cantwell wanting away and whether we could keep them.  That's not a good sign at all.

There's two ways you self fund, one's by turning out 30m players every couple of seasons and flickering between the divisions.  The other is to hold on to them, pay them the going rate and have routine prem league revenue flowing into our pockets. 

Youth is so much easier to gather when you hold a reputation in the top leagues too, and we can start loaning them out to lower leagues to increase their experience.

Then, There's always the safety that you can sell high wage/high value players to make the difference if you fail.  Or you sell for much greater profits as we having a higher bar ourselves.   Maybe that's too simplistic... and I'm rambling now as it's late.  lol 🙂

Edited by Google Bot

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6 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Matching Villa is not something we would've had to do though, just give him what he's worth here and keep him happy.

Plus he's on around £65-70k not £80k if you look at statistic tables and not initial reports which are always rounded up to sensationalise moves.

That's practically the same as what we're paying Brandon Williams.  So your point falls down a litte.

Even if we added 25k/Week EXTRA it's only 1.3m for the season.. That's absolute peanuts, we could've tripled his wages when you have 100m+ pay cheque coming in for survival.  Plus it's proven fact how we routinely fail to win when he's out.

£1.3m We've probably spent that on signing/agent/medical/travel/legal fee's on other signings.  Think of the numerous signings coming in.  You don't think Kabak is on at least 60k? Normann?  Sargent?  There's transfer fee's and additional wages, not to mention the absolute carnage it's done with our squad balance and finding out who's most suited.

But the reality is we've sold our greatest player (potentially ever!) when we could've just paid him what he's worth and it would've been a drip in the ocean vs prem money.  He has no allegiances to Villa, it was just to progress his career/raise income. He could be free to leave at the end of the season if we can't afford his wages - that's how the system usually works as you've stated above.

The point is, what vibes are we sending out to wantaway players, fans, media and pundits when they all appear to believe that we have little ambition to survive in this league.  I'm asking as those promoted around us are holding their assets AND still able to build. 

Brentford spent a little more than us, Watford less. But the difference is they have a mentality to give this league a go, and get at teams with belief.  They were both promoted with a squad committed to the cause yet we decided to sell , dismantle and are still rebuilding five games within the season.

Even after winning the league last season, fan attentions turned on Aarons, Emi & Cantwell wanting away and whether we could keep them.  That's not a good sign at all.

There's two ways you self fund, one's by turning out 30m players every couple of seasons and flickering between the divisions.  The other is to hold on to them, pay them the going rate and have routine prem league revenue flowing into our pockets. 

Youth is so much easier to gather when you hold a reputation in the top leagues too, and we can start loaning them out to lower leagues to increase their experience.

Then, There's always the safety that you can sell high wage/high value players to make the difference if you fail.  Or you sell for much greater profits as we having a higher bar ourselves.   Maybe that's too simplistic... and I'm rambling now as it's late.  lol 🙂

That's rather gone past my point. The point is not that paying Buendia the extra wage is £1.3 million. The point is, if you pay him that, everyone else in the team is going to want a pay rise beyond what's agreed in their contracts otherwise the team spirit is shot (if you've not heard of Adam's equity theory that's probably as good a place as any to start). And none of us know what Kabak, Normann, Sargent are on so we're completely guessing there. That £1.3 million in wages is likely to become £5m, £6m and more very quickly, if not more as everyone else thinks "sure, Buendia deserves to earn more than us as he's our best man, but not a couple of times more than us".

Is there any evidence that Williams is on close to £80K? Spotrac has him on what looks like £65K a week, and we don't even know if we're covering all the wages.

Youth is easier to gather if you have a clear path to first team football if they're willing to work. Sure, it's probably easier to get the genuine star prospects if you're constantly in the top flight, but that still hadn't stopped us getting the likes of Maddison or indeed Lewis, Godfrey and Aarons cheaply as youngsters too. And Omobamidele's constantly spoken of the pathway created for younger players.

Lastly, as Schalke have found out, selling high wage players isn't always that easy if the shoite hits the fan. Hence why we've got Kabak on loan. And Bremen found that out by selling us Rashica for far less than the £25m they quoted Villa the season before.

Norwich City F.C. 2021-22 Payroll Table | Spotrac

 

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2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's rather gone past my point. The point is not that paying Buendia the extra wage is £1.3 million. The point is, if you pay him that, everyone else in the team is going to want a pay rise beyond what's agreed in their contracts otherwise the team spirit is shot (if you've not heard of Adam's equity theory that's probably as good a place as any to start). And none of us know what Kabak, Normann, Sargent are on so we're completely guessing there. That £1.3 million in wages is likely to become £5m, £6m and more very quickly, if not more as everyone else thinks "sure, Buendia deserves to earn more than us as he's our best man, but not a couple of times more than us".

Is there any evidence that Williams is on close to £80K? Spotrac has him on what looks like £65K a week, and we don't even know if we're covering all the wages.

Youth is easier to gather if you have a clear path to first team football if they're willing to work. Sure, it's probably easier to get the genuine star prospects if you're constantly in the top flight, but that still hadn't stopped us getting the likes of Maddison or indeed Lewis, Godfrey and Aarons cheaply as youngsters too. And Omobamidele's constantly spoken of the pathway created for younger players.

Lastly, as Schalke have found out, selling high wage players isn't always that easy if the shoite hits the fan. Hence why we've got Kabak on loan. And Bremen found that out by selling us Rashica for far less than the £25m they quoted Villa the season before.

Norwich City F.C. 2021-22 Payroll Table | Spotrac

 

We cashed in. It’s easier to accept by spinning it as we had no choice but it boils down to cashing in. The argument  that other players would be upset if we paid Emi 75kpw holds little water, other teams manage to have a wide disparity within the team, Brighton and Palace have individuals on 3x others. Also they are grown men with ambition and must realise they have better chances of playing PL with higher wages with a player like Emi than without. Players then only outgrow us when clubs in Europe competitions want them not mid table also rans. Failure to adapt a championship model to the PL is a mistake the board/Webber must own. If we go down and have to slash the wage bill then we sell, painful as that is but what do people really expect at the end of this season anyway.. Todd, Arrons, Normman Rashica, Tzolis, they will all want away at the first sign of interest.

 

All crying over spilt milk now, but I wonder if there are some that were happy to back the sale are now having second thoughts and if not fine, I still hope some of the new players will shine but it was a choice and haven’t heard anything to convince me otherwise

Edited by Son Ova Gunn

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8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's rather gone past my point. The point is not that paying Buendia the extra wage is £1.3 million. The point is, if you pay him that, everyone else in the team is going to want a pay rise beyond what's agreed in their contracts otherwise the team spirit is shot (if you've not heard of Adam's equity theory that's probably as good a place as any to start).

We're already paying Brandon Williams near that though, so that logic falls down.  And everyone benefits when there's players who hold you in the higher echelons of football - as their wages and exposure increase by default.

There's a reason players were pushing him forwards in the carpark to the fans asking us to sing for him to stay after we won the league.

6 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

That £1.3 million in wages is likely to become £5m, £6m and more very quickly, if not more as everyone else thinks "sure, Buendia deserves to earn more than us as he's our best man, but not a couple of times more than us".

Ok, so extreme/worse case scenario we pay our players the going rate in this league and it costs us £5-6m - We're bringing in 20x that via revenue, instead we're wrecked as a team and no longer have one the greatest players to wear a shirt.  

'Not' willing to pay the going rate is a large of part of why players want to get out as soon as the chance presents itself.  Again, we give off these vibes to media, players, pundits, fans.  It's not something I'm making up as the facts exist, as does our zero point tally.... AGAIN, no coincidence vs teams in a similar position who DO hold their players.

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Is there any evidence that Williams is on close to £80K? Spotrac has him on what looks like £65K a week, and we don't even know if we're covering all the wages.

Well Emi is listed at 75k and you're taking that for granted as saying he's earning 80k, if we question the figures they're still incredibly close however you want to look at it.  Plus the likes of Normann/Kabak are not going to be far off either - so highly suggestive that we are paying those wages now, but not willing to put it into one of our greatest players.  

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/aston-villa-fc/payroll/

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Youth is easier to gather if you have a clear path to first team football if they're willing to work. Sure, it's probably easier to get the genuine star prospects if you're constantly in the top flight, but that still hadn't stopped us getting the likes of Maddison or indeed Lewis, Godfrey and Aarons cheaply as youngsters too.

Only one of those players exist today and he's wanting out.. Again, what does that tell you about our ambition?  Youth is pointless if you plough years into training and developing them and they spend 1-2 seasons and are gone.  It's just a complete white flag on the field and intent to compete in the higher league.  All your examples, to me, demonstrate a lack of ambition and further supports the trend of wantaway players even when we're promoted.

Being in the top league we can bed players out in lower leagues and still earn money from them and establish regulars in our squad.  When you sell it's for far greater value too as it's proven assets - not potentials.  With the players we had, that was a very viable option - instead we've thrown it away and trying to build mid-season, just to save a few million, which will ultimately cost us getting in a new manager, a new set of players, and restructure at boardroom level.

8 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Lastly, as Schalke have found out, selling high wage players isn't always that easy if the shoite hits the fan. Hence why we've got Kabak on loan. And Bremen found that out by selling us Rashica for far less than the £25m they quoted Villa the season before.

So we should cash in our greatest players rather than paying them a few million extra cause it a) upsets other players in the team, and b) we're scared that we can't sell them if we go down?  Can't you see how incredibly the negative that is - it's no wonder players want out and everyone says we lack ambition, if that indeed is the clubs thinking.

Personally, I think the club started believing their own hype and that they could repeat unearthing gems like Emi at cut-down prices than paying them the money they deserve.

I'm backing the club/manager to turn this around, but the more I think things over it's become evident that we've made the season a whole deal harder for ourselves, and think we'll be out of time way before we look capable of surviving.

Edited by Google Bot

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7 hours ago, Son Ova Gunn said:

We cashed in. It’s easier to accept by spinning it as we had no choice but it boils down to cashing in. The argument  that other players would be upset if we paid Emi 75kpw holds little water, other teams manage to have a wide disparity within the team, Brighton and Palace have individuals on 3x others. Also they are grown men with ambition and must realise they have better chances of playing PL with higher wages with a player like Emi than without. Players then only outgrow us when clubs in Europe competitions want them not mid table also rans. Failure to adapt a championship model to the PL is a mistake the board/Webber must own. If we go down and have to slash the wage bill then we sell, painful as that is but what do people really expect at the end of this season anyway.. Todd, Arrons, Normman Rashica, Tzolis, they will all want away at the first sign of interest.

 

All crying over spilt milk now, but I wonder if there are some that were happy to back the sale are now having second thoughts and if not fine, I still hope some of the new players will shine but it was a choice and haven’t heard anything to convince me otherwise

That's exactly how it works. Cash in when you think your player's value is at its highest. Emi had a reasonable season in the Premier but was dire after Project Restart. He wanted out all through last season, and had a great season. What I think surprised people was that he actually stayed in the first place to get us back up. (My guess, and it is only a guess, is that his poor performances on Project Restart probably made some clubs think "temperament issues" so Farke's probably told him "buck your ideas up and you'll earn a chance", and no-one can dispute his performances last season.).

Also, do Brighton really have a player as talismanic for them as Buendia was for us? 

Overpaying mid-squad players is precisely how you end up with the likes of Steven Naismith clunking up our wage bill for years after being any real use to the team. In fact, you could still lob that argument at the likes of Drmic and Leitner, or more harskly, Timm Klose.

 

1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

We're already paying Brandon Williams near that though, so that logic falls down.  And everyone benefits when there's players who hold you in the higher echelons of football - as their wages and exposure increase by default.

There's a reason players were pushing him forwards in the carpark to the fans asking us to sing for him to stay after we won the league.

Ok, so extreme/worse case scenario we pay our players the going rate in this league and it costs us £5-6m - We're bringing in 20x that via revenue, instead we're wrecked as a team and no longer have one the greatest players to wear a shirt.  

'Not' willing to pay the going rate is a large of part of why players want to get out as soon as the chance presents itself.  Again, we give off these vibes to media, players, pundits, fans.  It's not something I'm making up as the facts exist, as does our zero point tally.... AGAIN, no coincidence vs teams in a similar position who DO hold their players.

Well Emi is listed at 75k and you're taking that for granted as saying he's earning 80k, if we question the figures they're still incredibly close however you want to look at it.  Plus the likes of Normann/Kabak are not going to be far off either - so highly suggestive that we are paying those wages now, but not willing to put it into one of our greatest players.  

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/aston-villa-fc/payroll/

Only one of those players exist today and he's wanting out.. Again, what does that tell you about our ambition?  Youth is pointless if you plough years into training and developing them and they spend 1-2 seasons and are gone.  It's just a complete white flag on the field and intent to compete in the higher league.  All your examples, to me, demonstrate a lack of ambition and further supports the trend of wantaway players even when we're promoted.

Being in the top league we can bed players out in lower leagues and still earn money from them and establish regulars in our squad.  When you sell it's for far greater value too as it's proven assets - not potentials.  With the players we had, that was a very viable option - instead we've thrown it away and trying to build mid-season, just to save a few million, which will ultimately cost us getting in a new manager, a new set of players, and restructure at boardroom level.

So we should cash in our greatest players rather than paying them a few million extra cause it a) upsets other players in the team, and b) we're scared that we can't sell them if we go down?  Can't you see how incredibly the negative that is - it's no wonder players want out and everyone says we lack ambition, if that indeed is the clubs thinking.

Personally, I think the club started believing their own hype and that they could repeat unearthing gems like Emi at cut-down prices than paying them the money they deserve.

I'm backing the club/manager to turn this around, but the more I think things over it's become evident that we've made the season a whole deal harder for ourselves, and think we'll be out of time way before we look capable of surviving.

Buendia's on ten grand more than Williams based on the sources we've used, and no-one knows as part of the loan deal if we're even covering Williams' wages in full, or whether it's split so the notion that we're paying him close to what Buendia now has is unproven. You're guessing that Normann and Kabak will be close, but there is no evidence remotely to back this up. We did hear in dispatches that Lees-Melou, a pretty proven solid Ligue 1 operator, still had a pay rise but there are no figures on that source to show what he's currently on. The fact the negotiations went quickly on that as he came clean out of the blue would indicate to me that wages weren't much of a stumbling block and he's probably fitted into our wage structure well.

Had a look at Normann and Kabak out of interest. I am sceptical about the source but can't put a finger on why. However, I will say this: why do you think so many foreign players come to England? TV money and the effect on wages (especially as France's collapsed). So I doubt they're necessarily as highly paid as you appear to think. If these figures are to be believed, Normann is on £23K a week at Rostov, Kabak at £34K a week at Schalke. Even then, we don't know if the loan deal means we're covering all or just part of their wages.

FC Rostov 2021 Wages | Player & Team totals (salarysport.com)
FC Schalke 04 2021 Wages | Player & Team totals (salarysport.com)

Can't disagree more with the comment that developing youth is pointless if you plough training into them and they go two seasons later. That's exactly how we finance, amongst other things, improved training facilities and better squad players (four years ago we were hoping Marley Watkins and James Husband would come good - now our scapegoats are the likes of Kenny McLean and Lukas Rupp - one's won the Champs twice and the other's racked up 100+ games in the Bundesliga).

Don't get me wrong, this is a seriously annoying thing to watch when we won the Champs in style, but it's a very unusual set of circumstances. I guess more than anything, I don't see it as a lack of ambition. I'd say going for greater depth in the style they've done with more theoretical ways of attacking and greater flexibility in games is very ambitious.

What's undeniable is they've not gelled yet.

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1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's exactly how it works. Cash in when you think your player's value is at its highest. Emi had a reasonable season in the Premier but was dire after Project Restart

That's how it works if you're not prioritising on-the-field ambition, you mean?  If you're ambitious (Which is my point) you hold on to players if it's only going to cost you 5m more in a league that pays 100m.  That also ticks the self sufficient box.

The players you can replace, then yes, cash in on them when high.  But it's been abundantly clear for 3 seasons that without Emi we fail to win... If ambition exists, he becomes an exception.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Also, do Brighton really have a player as talismanic for them as Buendia was for us?

Ben White was a very high key departure, but with the money they've signed players on the up. 

We've bought in players such as Rashica and Sargent who have been on the way down for 2 seasons in a row - We've dropped out players riding a wave of success with players who are used to losing.

Brighton as an example have signed from teams like Salzburg, and ex Barca/Getafa.  Either clear winners in their leagues, or top 10. But most importantly, kept to their core progression.  We've completely ripped ours up for the sake of paying a key player the money he deserves.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Overpaying mid-squad players is precisely how you end up with the likes of Steven Naismith clunking up our wage bill for years after being any real use to the team.

Totally irrelevant, "You" made the excuse that we should NOT have paid Emi his worth because it would upset others. 

My point is that they would be accepting that having players of quality ensures everyone gets paid a better wage and exposure by default of competing in the top league.  So you wouldn't need to over-paying mid-squad players.  I'm talking about paying players what they're worth - a big difference in being able to hold on, build and progress as a squad.  I can't believe it's hard to grasp.

The only reason I went with your example was to expand it to a worse case scenario of costing us 5-6m which is peanuts in this league if you're gunning for survival.

You need to be careful that you're not arguing for the sake of being right here, just consider what you're saying.  Do you truly believe that we shouldn't and wouldn't have been better off securing Emi for the sake of a few million each year?  Do you honestly believe that it's a valid excuse that we shouldn't play better plays more money - even though the evidence hints that we're paying two youngsters on loan more than any of our established lads?

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Buendia's on ten grand more than Williams based on the sources we've used, and no-one knows as part of the loan deal if we're even covering Williams' wages in full, or whether it's split so the notion that we're paying him close to what Buendia now has is unproven. You're guessing that Normann and Kabak will be close, but there is no evidence remotely to back this up

Kabak will demanding 60-80k in this league, and being a loan deal we'll definitely be paying that as a short-term desperation signing, there's very little commitment there unless we survive... More hesitation.

Normann you'd expect to be 40k plus?.  Pretty sure you're looking at around 100k for both.  Yet we're not prepared to give a potential legend 75k in case it upsets other players who adore and rely on him?.  It's madness to me, and offers no logic.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Can't disagree more with the comment that developing youth is pointless if you plough training into them and they go two seasons later. That's exactly how we finance, amongst other things, improved training facilities and better squad players

I said it's pointless in regards to on-the-field progression if you're not getting value from them players yourself. You sell them as potentials at 20m as we do, or you establish yourselves and they become Ben White style transfers @ 40-50m.  It's cashing out early, again at the slightest sign of interest which is why there's a mantra that we lack ambition.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's exactly how we finance, amongst other things, improved training facilities and better squad players

I'm not questioning how we finance as improving facilities is obvious in our position, I'm questioning the ambition and why so many players want to get away at the slightest interest - and that can be directly attributed to us unprepared to pay them the going rate for their services at this level.

Financing of the club and building youth is far better done as an ambitious, successful team where you can loan them out to championship clubs as part of their experience. Being in the top tier showing a path to the first team offers you a better selection of youth too.

It's a far better long-term plan than building players and selling them at the first bite and constantly rebuilding.  We're currently replacing young homegrown talent with eastern European hopefuls.  Ripped the heart of the team and will undoubtedly lose at least Aarons & Cantwell at the end of this season as they're want-away players too.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Don't get me wrong, this is a seriously annoying thing to watch when we won the Champs in style, but it's a very unusual set of circumstances. I guess more than anything, I don't see it as a lack of ambition. I'd say going for greater depth in the style they've done with more theoretical ways of attacking and greater flexibility in games is very ambitious.

It's more annoying that I'm individually quoting you line by line when I hate the thought of replying again! lol 🙂

Also, I don't think it is an unusual set of circumstances, it's rinse and repeat for us, yet you see teams like Sheff Utd, Leeds, Brentford all have sparks of success in this league.  We're just absolute whipping boys.

I don't see it as a lack of ambition too - at least not in comparison to the top 26 target.

I'm fully supportive of the club and our objective is a longterm view, not short-term - never expected to survive this season, and it was made more evident with our 'hopeful' signing strategy.  However, reading more opinions that differ from mine, and reviewing with my head, not heart, we had a very good chance to build on what we had here and Webber/Farke have been arrogant thinking that they could unearth gems and make it work.

We could've had more eye on the short-term in making sure the odds were in our favour, all we've done is heaped too much on our manager than he can sensibly deal with.

But my underlying issue is why do players want away so easily, when other teams (Brentford/Watford/Bournemouth) can hold onto their assets?

Why do media and pundits believe we're not trying? 

There has to be something in there... And using Emi as a prime example to focus on, as there's no link to Villa for him other than offering more ambition and higher wages.  Wages, which I believe we could've easily and justifiably matched.

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

What's undeniable is they've not gelled yet.

Of course, but they've got a bigger job after they've gelled to prove they're at this level.  So that's two very large obstacles to overcome.  We laid the second obstacle with our transfer strategy.  It's a complete mess really. 

My hope is resting on what players like Krul and Normann have been saying in post match interviews who seem fully confident in the players ability to turn it around. 

Edit: Jeez mate, please don't reply to this, I'm kinda done with the long replies, keep it short if you do!  haha 🙂  Seriously, it's such a mess that I find it hard to understand where my own mind's at, let alone being able to convey my thoughts easily.

Edited by Google Bot

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Essentially, your argument appears to be buttressed on what looks like a wholly incorrect assumption that Kabak and Normann are on similar money to what Buendia is earning now at Villa, going off what we already know about their wages with their host clubs. and accompanied by an assumption that Williams is having all his wages paid for by NCFC. The former looks totally incorrect going off that source, and the third one is pure guesswork. At most, their wages would be fully covered by NCFC. Going off the trouble Schalke are in with relegation, they could even have taken less just to offset, but we don't know. 

(I could have gone on, but yeah, I definitely see what you mean by keeping it short, as much as we're clearly trying to engage in good discussion at least! 😄 )

The other thing I'll say (as briefly as possible) is this - this is essentially how our model works:

1. Encourage promising youth in with a clear passageway to the first team with a coach proven to be excellent with young players.
2. When they're at a star level in the team and garnering interest, sell at the best possible price.
3. Use most of that revenue to buy cheaper, experienced pros of a better quality than most of the current squad, whilst keeping some for promising youngsters at lower-division clubs. In theory, their experience and proven skill-set should provide a more solid base for the next batch of youngsters to come into.

Stage 3 is basically in the "stalling the engine" phase at the moment.

(Hope that's short enough mate! 😄

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1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

(Hope that's short enough mate! 😄

Haha, appreciate that. 🙂

I'll keep myself brief, Just to be clear I'm not questioning our model, as I back it, I like the long-term plan and i love the ethics at the club.  And I've been saying it all throughout when people have said that Farke has no excuses this season etc.  In my opinion this is his biggest test yet, and all on him.

So, I can see the model, how it works and what it means.... I also know it needs time.  But most importantly i also know it relies on a lot of belief and confidence that we can pull through as a unit.

However, because I've bought into the model and put faith in Webber and Farke, I'm also worried that I've become too conditioned and bought into the top 26 plan as being the 'only' way.  Especially now we're in a mess and have lost all momentum.  Yet teams like Watford and Brentford who we were ahead of kept hold of players and are progressing better.  Their equivalent losses would be Sarr & Toney and it would seriously hit them.

Stepping back and reviewing things so far, I believe we had a real chance to build around the team AND make money the more I break it down, because as we've discussed giving Emi the money he deserves is the cheaper option and would not have prevented us from bringing in players like Kabak & Normann.  Pukki, Emi & Cantwell is by far a better attacking combo than we have right now, and they're much more experienced as a trio were we to continue it. 

As Buendia is so special to them, I don't think any player would deny him his right to earn the money he deserves, when it also benefits them to play in that squad.

But my biggest concern, and how we got talking on this topic is whether there's ambition at the club that matches our players... Where i've not been clear is that this is totally separate of my expectations and ambitions. 

Cause it seems that every pundit/media/fan chan thinks we're a cash grab joke.  It's silly to not question it really, or you're doing yourself a dis-service.  Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, and to hold my hands up I thought the direction we went was right. 

Yet today I'm thinking fewer more quality signings to add to an established team would've been the better route... Of course, we're all hurting as City fans so much could be that resonating around my head, just need a result this weekend!!

Edited by Google Bot

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11 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Haha, appreciate that. 🙂

I'll keep myself brief, Just to be clear I'm not questioning our model, as I back it, I like the long-term plan and i love the ethics at the club.  And I've been saying it all throughout when people have said that Farke has no excuses this season etc.  In my opinion this is his biggest test yet, and all on him.

So, I can see the model, how it works and what it means.... I also know it needs time.  But most importantly i also know it relies on a lot of belief and confidence that we can pull through as a unit.

However, because I've bought into the model and put faith in Webber and Farke, I'm also worried that I've become too conditioned and bought into the top 26 plan as being the 'only' way.  Especially now we're in a mess and have lost all momentum.  Yet teams like Watford and Brentford who we were ahead of kept hold of players and are progressing better.  Their equivalent losses would be Sarr & Toney and it would seriously hit them.

Stepping back and reviewing things so far, I believe we had a real chance to build around the team AND make money the more I break it down, because as we've discussed giving Emi the money he deserves is the cheaper option and would not have prevented us from bringing in players like Kabak & Normann.  Pukki, Emi & Cantwell is by far a better attacking combo than we have right now, and they're much more experienced as a trio were we to continue it. 

As Buendia is so special to them, I don't think any player would deny him his right to earn the money he deserves, when it also benefits them to play in that squad.

But my biggest concern, and how we got talking on this topic is whether there's ambition at the club that matches our players... Where i've not been clear is that this is totally separate of my expectations and ambitions. 

Cause it seems that every pundit/media/fan chan thinks we're a cash grab joke.  It's silly to not question it really, or you're doing yourself a dis-service.  Obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing, and to hold my hands up I thought the direction we went was right. 

Yet today I'm thinking fewer more quality signings to add to an established team would've been the better route... Of course, we're all hurting as City fans so much could be that resonating around my head, just need a result this weekend!!

To be fair, I'd say there's a big difference between "the only way", and "the way that best suits NCFC as it is set up with the players they have right now, and with the ownership they currently have". If we had a manager like Tony Pulis in charge, who wasn't exactly known for bringing youngsters through but mainly went for older freebies then I definitely think your last paragraph would be spot on. Farke's always going to be a youth whisperer though - we've seen that through his spells at Lippstadt and Dortmund II. 

As for what the pundits/media think, we've already seen that most of them are full of crap and don't even begin to understand our model. As Webber would say, just ignore the noise. In the light of a sport where Derby just hit administration, Burnley have a takeover where they've just been leveraged for debt and our frenemies down the road are linked with an American pension fund all in the space of a few months, our relative comfort and steady improvement to facilities. 

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the players are still backing him, so there's no need just yet. He knows he is under huge pressure now, with Burnley coming up. Whilst I do think this is taking a bit too long to gel in the PL, he has basically been given XI new players and no pre-season, it was always going to take time, just I think most of us thought we'd be seeing some promising shoots of hope by now but it just isn't working. The one thing I will give him credit for is the fact he is willing to try different things, and different systems. He deserves a bit longer yet, you don't win two titles by accident 

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17 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Only one of those players exist today and he's wanting out.. Again, what does that tell you about our ambition?  Youth is pointless if you plough years into training and developing them and they spend 1-2 seasons and are gone.  It's just a complete white flag on the field and intent to compete in the higher league.  All your examples, to me, demonstrate a lack of ambition and further supports the trend of wantaway players even when we're promoted.

I see the biggest plus of youth team, as squad fillers. If you can have say 18 senior players competing for the first team and a group of u21's who are good enough to come in and play a handful of games (injuries/suspensions). The senior players can be on slightly higher wages and can spend more on transfer fees etc and the youth team costs don't count towards 'FFP'. The added benefit is every now and then, one of those youth players will progress to be a big sellable asset. 

 

Edited by Baracouda

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On 25/09/2021 at 17:42, Christoph Stiepermann said:

If we are to get rid of him I just hope the club is brave enough to make the decision before it gets ugly. We always leave it too late and let things become nasty and spoil the relationship when it's clear as day we need a change. Look at what happened with Worthy, Hughton and Neil, none of them deserved the vitriol they got towards the end, but people just got so frustrated at the club for not being brave enough to make the decision and it spilt over and the managers got abuse and  suffered for it. I think back to the Worthy out posters and Hughton having something thrown at him by the fans and I'm still embarrassed by it but it was the clubs fault it happened. I'm hoping it never gets to that stage with Farke but knowing the club like I do I'm not optimistic to be honest

True enough. Personally given his methodical character, I assume that by now,  Mr Webber and co will already be well on the search on the downlow, for an alternative.
Wouldn’t be surprised if something happens October/November assuming there is no massive turnaround.

Sad to say.

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1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

As for what the pundits/media think, we've already seen that most of them are full of crap and don't even begin to understand our model. As Webber would say, just ignore the noise.

There is that, but when I see generally reasonable fan chans (Such as the Thogdens and Rory from the Kickoff) also dismissing us as a joke and not trying - that tends to hit a little different to me.  It's just everywhere, and the example in Emi is such a major factor in all of this the more I talk it through.  (How much I owe you for this counselling session btw? lol).

Likewise even our 'fans of the season' TNC'er Jack Reeve has seemingly given up on the current cause to me.  Webber can say ignore the noise, and maybe we should ignore Burnley's current success who did keep hold of their assets, and Watford who are mid-table.. again kept their assets.

But aren't we doing ourselves a dis-service by blindly following that this is the only way based on who manages us?  Honestly, I see no reason financially why we had to allow Emi little resistance in leaving.  I think Farke/Webber made a decision that they could build us into a better team without him, and it's perhaps a somewhat false hope that's born from over-confidence in what they achieved previously.

Trouble is, all previous achievements could've actually have been due to his presence on the field.

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