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By Hook or Ian crook

Defensive coach?

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As a possible solution to our situation why do we not look at adding a new Defending coach to our set up. Farke from what I gather has very little input on actual training other than instructions and tactics so why not add a new defensive coach to try and tighten up this leaky ship. 
 

Aston Villa did it with John Terry, Arsenal did it with Steve Bould. Surely someone could add some much needed organisation to our back line. Perhaps someone like Sol Campbell who has managerial experience? 
 

Conversely I’d say if we are consigned to relegation we must keep Farke as he has a proven track record of getting out of the championship. So adding a new member to the backroom team might save the need to sack him and still go down with a potentially less suitable man to get us back out of the league. 

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I would have thought a defensive coach would be the obvious solution (or attempt) to solve our issues. Someone who understands how we want to play and can bring the best out of the players. We have Goalkeeping coaches, so why not. 

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100% yes.  It's not even up for debate as far as I'm concerned, it's needed or the Manager is losing his job which will be a shame as he's clearly got far too many positives going for him for this area to drag him down without support.

As it stands there's no track record there to show that we can defend at this level on an organisational/system level... It's not just individual player mistakes, it's now at epidemic levels in the squad.

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I'd have to agree with something along these lines, even if short-term and DF would be happy with this. Even someone he may have worked with before.

Maybe chris Houghton! He certainly isn't attack minded!

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First goal from the corner, there are 4 Liverpool players lined up in the centre of the box, we have 3 midfielders marking them, so, they starburst leaving one player essentially free, the eventual goal scorer,  As the corner was taken we had 6, yes six, defenders in a diagonal line across the 6 yard line, in essence marking thin air, or maybe zones.  I’m not sure what this means as I do not have an A badge, but it must mean something, does it mean Klopp new our methods so out thought Farke, or……?

 

Second goal, as the ball is swept to the left by Liverpool, we have seven players in our half, they have eight consequently there is no one to track the overlap, leading to an unchallenged cross?  The cross is over Hanley’s head, however Gibson was behind him, initially tight on Origi but for some inexplicable reason steps back and away from Origi leaving him a free header. Hanley cannot see what is behind him but surely Gibson can see what is in front of him? Again, I’ve no idea!

 

Third goal, we surrender the ball Dowell is goal side of Minamino, who sets off on a run, Dowell stands pretty much stock still, and watches him run passed him, allowing Minamino unfettered access to our box and the rest is history.  Again why?

 

Apart from the three occasions highlighted above, Liverpool did not have a shot on target, we had 60% more with five, they achieved 100% conversion rate we achieved 0%.  Does it mean we did a better defensive job than Liverpool and a better attacking job but a dismal conversion job?  Go figure.

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2 minutes ago, Ray said:

Second goal, as the ball is swept to the left by Liverpool, we have seven players in our half, they have eight consequently there is no one to track the overlap, leading to an unchallenged cross?  The cross is over Hanley’s head, however Gibson was behind him, initially tight on Origi but for some inexplicable reason steps back and away from Origi leaving him a free header. Hanley cannot see what is behind him but surely Gibson can see what is in front of him? Again, I’ve no idea!

I thought for the second goal, Gunn was to blame also. Very poor from Hanley and Gibson one of these should have been marking him tight. But Gunn should have thought he is at the byline and he is going to cross and should be 3 or 4 yards off his line, with the intention of catching the cross. Alternatively Gunn should have been screaming at his defenders to pick up the striker and get tight.

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Unfortunately the majority of the mistakes have been made by Senior players and the nature of the mistakes have been routine. I'm not sure a defensive coach telling them not to watch the ball as it sales into the 6 yard box or let the only striker stand in the middle of your three defenders and have a free shot at goal.

The system is exposing them (wingbacks) and they are making schoolboy poor decisions. I don't think getting a celebrity defender to come in and coach fixes this.

 

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"I don't think getting a celebrity defender to come in and coach fixes this."

Agree, it really should not be needed if Farke is a qualified manager, they are afterall basic issues.

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Since most of us can see it then I can see your point but for me the fact they are not even challenging for the ball suggests we may be playing some kind of very rigid zonal system that needs to change. I get that all defensive/marking systems have to be zonal to a degree but you still need to attack the ball or track your man until you can pass him over to the next defender. We simply don;t do this. They literally mark patches of grass and ignore the attackers movements. 

The system last night was actually quite effective at stopping them running directly at us on the counter which has been our other problem. We were not overstretched too often. However as long as we can do the basics when defending crosses and give the ball away in our own third when pressed everything else is going to be irrelevant. 

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23 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

There are statistics I believe saying teams who make zonally concede less from set pieces than those who man mark. I do believe form memory though there isn’t much in it. 

What about the stats for teams who mark zonally and don;t challenge for the ball or track runners at all?

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

What about the stats for teams who mark zonally and don;t challenge for the ball or track runners at all?

I don’t think they track them specifically they probably bring the mean average of the whole group down somewhat I’d say 😂

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19 minutes ago, Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB said:

We could start by leaving somebody up on corners, rather than all our players coming back, if nothing else it would deter the opposition from having all of their outfield players in and around our penalty area.........

We can start by leaving our 2 CBs up the pitch.....

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A defence coach isn't going to make any of them taller or stronger.

 

Going into a Premier League season and then complaining that your players are 'inexperienced' is both bizarre and pretty ridiculous.

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11 hours ago, Canary Jedi said:

I’m not, mind giving us the gist please?

The final whistle goes and it’s been another disappointing result for your team. Not only have they dropped points once again, but the opposition have capitalised on more bad defending to increase the goals against column.Every week the same problems appear to be exposed at the back and there are no signs of improvement. Surely something has to change at the training ground?

It’s not as clear-cut as that,” former England centre-back Matthew Upson tells The Athletic. “If I walked into a club, just because I’m a former defender there are no guarantees. If it was that easy, everyone would do it tomorrow. It takes time, a consistent message and the players you’re working with to buy into it.”

Gareth McAuley won 80 caps for Northern Ireland and was a key figure in West Brom’s back line for seven years, all of which were spent in the Premier League.

The 40-year-old doesn’t rule out such a practice becoming more commonplace. He explains: “Before the lockdown I did an event with the Premier League on coaching. There were a few coaches from different sports involved and I think they see coaching going the way of more specialists on the team, as well as your head coach.

“It is a thing, but I think you’re only talking about it happening at the top level, because lower down the pyramid they just don’t have the finances (to have specialist coaches) or the time.

“I never had a defensive specialist. I’ve had coaches who are very good at organising defences — Tony Pulis, Roy Hodgson, Steve Clarke and Michael O’Neill. They were very good on defending with the whole team, to give us a base to play from. People feel that’s how the game’s going to move though, coaching-wise, with a head coach and then unit specialists below that.”

The defending over the last couple of years has been really bad. Not just to pick on Manchester United or Liverpool recently — it’s become almost the forgotten part of the game. The first thing they talk about with defenders is pass completion, but I think that puts certain players in the wrong frame of mind. I’d rather have a defender who can do his job, who has got the right physical capabilities, rather than someone who dribbles or plays out.”

Inevitably there isn’t a common consensus within the sport. For example, this is the view of one backroom staff member of a side playing in the north of the country, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

“I think it’s the most dated and lazy question around,” he says. “Which major winning teams have had a specialist defensive coach? You have staff to cover those bases and the best teams defend from the front throughout the team.

“The most successful managers in the Premier League right now are Jurgen Klopp and Pep Guardiola. Do they need a defensive coach after the start they’ve had (conceding 18 times between them in seven matches)? They conceded lots of goals in their first year at Manchester City (39) and Liverpool (42 — Klopp’s first full season in 2016-17) respectively before they had the quality of players they brought in to complement their style.

It’s lazy to say ‘Choose a former centre-back/specialist’ to solve a team issue.

 

The beauty of the Arsenal back four was that it stayed together for so long that in certain situations around the pitch, I knew what each one of my team-mates in that back four was going to do, and I knew I had to react to that to put myself in a good defensive position.

“Myself, Dixon and Bould were bought within a relatively short space of time and then George set to work. We might do 45-minute sessions two or three times a week. I don’t see any professional in the modern game doing what we did.
Upson, who played under Pulis for 18 months, said: “He would work on the defensive shape every single Thursday. It was mindnumbing at times, especially if you weren’t in the selected XI starting on the Saturday. It would be the first XI vs players out of favour (or) those just not starting. Sometimes he’d bring over some youth players to make up the numbers. It would be scripted. So he would start the ball in certain areas of the pitch or a breakdown in play. The full-backs advanced and then bang, they’d have to defend

He would set the other team up in relation to how the opposition would play on the Saturday. If we were playing a team that got the ball wide for example, he would work on Jermaine Pennant and Matthew Etherington dropping back, both centre-backs tight in the box, both full-backs getting tight, the midfielder coming across. It made us very difficult to beat.

“He didn’t need a defensive coach because that was a skill set of his. He got us to work so much it was a habit, it came as second nature to us. The message was reinforced every week.

“That is the key to a lot of defensive work. The message is about the concentration, the mental aspect of recognising the danger and putting yourself in a position to deal with things. It was a repetitive message.

“You felt the benefit of it on the Saturday because you felt more secure. Everyone knew their role and if you didn’t fulfil your role, you got told about it either by your team-mates or the manager. Every successful team has that.”

But just because Pulis had the experience of playing the position, it doesn’t mean all former defenders will manage like he did. Few will argue that Sol Campbell wasn’t one of the best centre-backs England has produced. But when he was in charge of Southend last season, he didn’t make keeping goals out his only focus.

“At Southend I wanted to have a complete overview and not have to concentrate just on defensive duties,” Campbell admits. “So I had Hermann Hreidarsson there with me as well. Another former defender. I’d allow the coaches to do their stuff in their particular areas of expertise – we had Andy Cole taking the strikers – and I’d step in if and when I needed to.

As Winterburn concludes: “I do think the game has completely changed today. There might not be as many good defenders as there were 25-30 years ago but technically, on the ball and going forward, they are a lot better.

“There comes a time when you come up against teams who are as good as you if not better than you, and you need to understand the right to defend, the positions to be in, and not be afraid to also organise the midfield players in front of you.

“It’s important to have a good understanding collectively as a back four, but also work in the midfield players to shield you from the danger. I don’t think a lot of people understand that side of the game from the outside.”

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So it shouldn’t be necessary to have a defensive coach … but that doesn’t seem to help us. 
 

Is it the players, the coaching, or the specific system of zonal marking that we are using?

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I said in a different thread, whilst I appreciate where people are coming from with this there are a couple of things that sort of suggest that it isn't the main issue that needs to be solved. The first is that we saw last season our style significantly tightened up in comparison to the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons. That was due to personnel and a slight change of tactics which showed the management were capable of fixing the problem themselves.

 

That moves us onto this season and the personnel, as so far we have only had one match with our new recognised CDM. We need to see if Normann can help us regain some of the stability that our defensive phases had last season, both as a screen to the CB and also covering the full backs when they get forward. 

 

The other issue I believe is the mistakes we are making, they are there for us all to see... theres nothing too nuanced about them, I mean they could hire me if they want to tell them 'Cut the balls into the box out' 'don't let Jesus have so much space to get in behind our left back' 'Hanley don't head a ball out for a Leicester throw which they score from when it was going out for our own anyway'. Our mistakes aren't because our defenders need to be taught to defend, I think its more the combination of the pressure and almost a desire to over play it. I think the two things that can help with that will be somehow getting a positive result on the board and then also a careful use of rotating players, so as to keep the levels high. Too many mistakes need to see an alternative coming in, its the only way to keep the concentration and desire high as we cant have any automatic starters in a leaky defence.

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9 hours ago, birchfest said:

I said in a different thread, whilst I appreciate where people are coming from with this there are a couple of things that sort of suggest that it isn't the main issue that needs to be solved. The first is that we saw last season our style significantly tightened up in comparison to the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons. That was due to personnel and a slight change of tactics which showed the management were capable of fixing the problem themselves.

 

That moves us onto this season and the personnel, as so far we have only had one match with our new recognised CDM. We need to see if Normann can help us regain some of the stability that our defensive phases had last season, both as a screen to the CB and also covering the full backs when they get forward. 

 

The other issue I believe is the mistakes we are making, they are there for us all to see... theres nothing too nuanced about them, I mean they could hire me if they want to tell them 'Cut the balls into the box out' 'don't let Jesus have so much space to get in behind our left back' 'Hanley don't head a ball out for a Leicester throw which they score from when it was going out for our own anyway'. Our mistakes aren't because our defenders need to be taught to defend, I think its more the combination of the pressure and almost a desire to over play it. I think the two things that can help with that will be somehow getting a positive result on the board and then also a careful use of rotating players, so as to keep the levels high. Too many mistakes need to see an alternative coming in, its the only way to keep the concentration and desire high as we cant have any automatic starters in a leaky defence.

I don’t agree he fixed it last season although admittedly Skipp tightened things up a bit with his tracking of midfield runners. Statistically our defence was a lot better last season but watching the games I never felt it was. There were still 2 or 3 errors per game. The opposition were still getting free headers or men unmarked at the far post. We just got away with it because we dominated the ball in most games, some teams just parked the bus or teams did not have the clinical quality to punish us (remember the chances Wycombe missed or the open goals QPR and Barnsley missed in the last minutes?).

I do think this is by far the biggest issue we have. Yes the playing out from the back and getting Normann settled in front the defence need sorting as well but this inability to defend against crosses and set plays is undermining everything. Tuesday was an even game but every time we looked threatening or like we might get on top we shipped a soft goal. Same with Watford really until they got the second. Goals change games, heads for down. 

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