The real problem

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

Indeed, Badger. If I could be bothered I could draw up a plan of campaign which might not succeed in forcing S&J to sell up but which would at least provoke a serious public debate on the way forward for the club. As opposed to what there is now, which is an incestuous and circular argument among some fans (and probably a small percentage of the total) in cyberspace.

But it would be totally wasted. Any campaign would require a good deal of time and effort from those wanting change, and a well-run organisation to make it work. I have never seen any sign that those clamouring in cyberspace would be remotely willing or able to do that.

Edited September 24, 2021 by PurpleCanary

[essex canary 496]

7 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Indeed, Badger. If I could be bothered I could draw up a plan of campaign which might not succeed in forcing S&J to sell up but which would at least provoke a serious public debate on the way forward for the club. As opposed to what there is now, which is an incestuous and circular argument among some fans (and probably a small percentage of the total) in cyberspace.

But it would be totally wasted. Any campaign would require a good deal of time and effort from those wanting change, and a well-run organisation to make it work. I have never seen any sign that those clamouring in cyberspace would be remotely willing or able to do that.

We should be careful what we wish for and Badger's observations on Derby v Leicester etc are relevant.

Then again I watched a TV article 6 weeks or so ago about a Swansea fan looking forward to Russell Martin's brand of football complete with mention of how Russ had posted a picture  on the wall at MK Dons when his team had scored a goal to conclude a 55 pass move. I wonder how that Swansea fan is feeling now?  Perhaps Swansea will make the national news when they score a 93 minute winner following a 93 pass move? Then again Russ maybe a free agent again soon when Swansea fall below a maximum points haul of 93 for the season? 

Hopefully we can have our debate before then? We could ask at the AGM.

[Danke bitte 965]

8 hours ago, Badger said:

1. I can't say that you are wrong - a Hughtonesque style or Pulis ball might improve our chances of staying up. We certainly had one good season under Hughton. However, it was never very popular with the fans and talk of "the Norwich way" came to the fore. Would they be prepared for the pragmatic style now? I wouldn't like it, but others might.

2. The problem is when trying to switch from the pragmatic to something more attractive after a few years. Palace tried this with de Boer but sacked him after 5 games! It is one of the interesting things to see this season with Viera - can he succeed where De Boer failed? Post-Pulis Stoke got relegated etc

3. The third problem of resorting to hoof ball is that if we are relegated again it may make if harder to get back up again. We will just be another pragmatic championship team. You won't be able to transform the pragmatic bruisers you have bought for Pulis ball into possession dominating thoroughbreds.

I would be against a reversion to Hughton-style pragmatism myself, but it is only an opinion: others might welcome it

I appreciate your view! You’re right, look at that second season under Hughton. It’s tough, and I think it’s either you have the cash to buy the players to implement that new system or you do it incrementally. 

Equally, I’m not suggesting we go full Hughton or Dyche when I say ‘more pragmatic’ but I’m frustrated to see that we are weak in midfield again and bite in the tackle. The club put 19/20 under the microscope and realise bite was severely lacking yet… here we are again.

Please don’t think I’m a ‘Farke Out’ guy, I want him more than anyone to succeed but if results don’t pick up then Webber has to act. 

[ron obvious 1,502]

I think Daniel is capable of a pragmatic approach. I seem to remember, after a poor start, us going a record number of games without conceding in his first season? Hopefully he'll deploy the same sort of tactics shortly to get us up & running; I think with PLM, Normann, Andrew,  Kabak, Max & Williams we have the players to do it - but he has to train the daft mistakes out of them. I remain optimistic that he can.

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

On 23/09/2021 at 15:06, By Hook or Ian crook said:

How much did Brentford pay for Ivan Toney? I think there are always gems in the right places if you know where to look. 

More than we paid for Pukki.

[Badger 2,405]

17 hours ago, essex canary said:

We should be careful what we wish for and Badger's observations on Derby v Leicester etc are relevant.

Then again I watched a TV article 6 weeks or so ago about a Swansea fan looking forward to Russell Martin's brand of football complete with mention of how Russ had posted a picture  on the wall at MK Dons when his team had scored a goal to conclude a 55 pass move. I wonder how that Swansea fan is feeling now?  Perhaps Swansea will make the national news when they score a 93 minute winner following a 93 pass move? Then again Russ maybe a free agent again soon when Swansea fall below a maximum points haul of 93 for the season? 

Hopefully we can have our debate before then? We could ask at the AGM.

I would emphasise that it is not just Derby, they are just the most egregious example. There are a whole load of other examples where the gamble has failed & the money has been turned off as the rich owners get sick of throwing good money after bad and the owners start looking to get out with as  small  loss as possible. 

I hope Russ succeeds at Swansea, but it is a big challenge and hopefully he will be given a few years to build. I remember the days of "Why can't we be like Swansea" but that seems to have quietened recently. To be fair on their US investor owners, having messed up big time in their first season (3 managers and relegation) they have been quite sensible. However, they have not behaved as most posters on here think investor owners would behave  -no  big loans or gifts to the club; no big borrowings from banks etc + a determination to cut costs and live within their means. Exerts from the CEO's  comments after the last accounts:

 The accounts "shows a great deal of progress on the road to our overall business model of being financially stable."

“The club’s paramount focus remains being able to be financially stable for the long-term, not just for its supporters but also for its proud community.”

But I don't suppose that this will destroy the myth that investor owners pump in millions every year and two or three ears later you win the Premier league. It does however, suggest that Russ might be given a chance.

[spencer 1970 207]

On 23/09/2021 at 16:39, Uncle Fred said:

There is an ownership model in place in the premier league that works

we have came in with an alternative model which had proven to be a disaster 

time for Delia to smell the coffee and sell up to a stinking rich Chinese billionaire 

This has got me thinking. I wonder how many people on here are Brexit voting, right leaning types who want "Britain to be back British", yet would love us to be sold off to some random "forrin bilyonare" to we can compete finacially in the Prem? 🙃

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

6 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

More than we paid for Pukki.

While this is true the post was about looking for gems from the lower league like lambert did. Brentford plucked Toney from Peterborough for a snip of his current market value. I’d say he’s probably in the 40-50mil ball park now. 

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

3 hours ago, spencer 1970 said:

This has got me thinking. I wonder how many people on here are Brexit voting, right leaning types who want "Britain to be back British", yet would love us to be sold off to some random "forrin bilyonare" to we can compete finacially in the Prem? 🙃

We will never compete financially in the Premier league due to the financial (un)fair play rules that mean clubs can only spend a percentage of their income opposed to previously clubs being able to be bank rolled by rich owners. It’s a sham of a system designed to keep the rich rich and the poor from being taken over and a ton of money invested. 

[wcorkcanary 4,334]

3 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

While this is true the post was about looking for gems from the lower league like lambert did. Brentford plucked Toney from Peterborough for a snip of his current market value. I’d say he’s probably in the 40-50mil ball park now. 

Yeah, my reply was a tad trite, Soz Crooko. I remember  Toney being mentioned on here many times when he was at P'boro. Would be interested  to know if we were ever interested  and if not , why not?

[City 2nd 191]

On 22/09/2021 at 20:49, The Raptor said:

A stinking rich owner solves nothing. Is financial fair play not still a thing?

In the last 35 years or so I've been following football only a handfull have been successful long term. Chelsea, man city and perhaps Leicester. That's it. So many others have ended in failure. What good has it done Derby? Wigan? Bolton? Sunderland? Blackburn. A couple won stuff yeah but then disappeared back into the void. Liverpool spent over a billion on players let alone wages to have the same number of premier League titles as Leicester and Blackburn. 

The finances of the league are a joke. It's pretty much a cartel. Clubs are expected to spend big to overpay average players. Some who prove time and time again they can't cut it in the premier League but move from promote club to promoted club.  And if they don't the media turn against them as it doesn't keep the myth of the premier League alive. The same with the 'managerial merry go round', deadline day hype etc

We have the 5th smallest stadium in the league. Yes we fill it but with a high percentage of season ticket holders I'd say our gate receipts are lower than 5th. Commercial income too. Geographically we're at a disadvantage. We're pretty much doomed.

 

 

And there is your answer. Put a salary cap in place, then the playing field levels. 

[Wilson 62]

We were better two years ago. 
 

Delia would have been better advised investing in the club’s wine cellar.

Webber’s attempt at making us more physical has failed. 

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

On 24/09/2021 at 10:34, PurpleCanary said:

Indeed, Badger. If I could be bothered I could draw up a plan of campaign which might not succeed in forcing S&J to sell up but which would at least provoke a serious public debate on the way forward for the club. As opposed to what there is now, which is an incestuous and circular argument among some fans (and probably a small percentage of the total) in cyberspace.

But it would be totally wasted. Any campaign would require a good deal of time and effort from those wanting change, and a well-run organisation to make it work. I have never seen any sign that those clamouring in cyberspace would be remotely willing or able to do that.

Now's your chance. Instead of whingeing do something about it.

Edited September 25, 2021 by PurpleCanary