The real problem

[Kenny Foggo 1,116]

Buendia ..us £35k a week... Villa £80k a week.

The email is correct. We don't have the budget for the premiership.

The answer? Who knows. Maybe we could pay £5 each to boo one player... should have billions pretty soon according to the posts on here this week...

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

8 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

That Lambert team would do just as poorly as this team if not worse. The quality of this league is now much higher, there's no one in this league including us who were as poor as Wigan, Bolton, Sunderland, Blackburn, Wolves etc were in that season  and the strategy we took in terms of transfers that summer can't work anymore. There aren't players of the quality of Bennett and Pilkington in L1 anymore, certainly not for 1-3m anyway and you're looking at 10-15m+ for good Championship players now. Steve Morrison would probably cost about 10m in today's market so the 2011 era is pretty irrelevant to our current situation because it's an approach we couldn't have repeated

Yes. And not just transfer fees but wages too. I have seen posts saying we should have kept Buendia and bought some Premier League-hardened defender or midfielder to give us some experience and mental toughness. A nice idea but anyone decent with some years left to play would have cost us our entire transfer budget and probably blown a large hole in our wage structure.

[Badger 2,405]

21 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

That was the next best thing if Delia wasn't going to stump up for EPL wages.

this simply isn't true. We paid more than several other clubs at the time - more than Newcastle, Leicester and more than double Bournemouth and Watford.

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

17 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

That Lambert team would do just as poorly as this team if not worse. The quality of this league is now much higher, there's no one in this league including us who were as poor as Wigan, Bolton, Sunderland, Blackburn, Wolves etc were in that season  and the strategy we took in terms of transfers that summer can't work anymore. There aren't players of the quality of Bennett and Pilkington in L1 anymore, certainly not for 1-3m anyway and you're looking at 10-15m+ for good Championship players now. Steve Morrison would probably cost about 10m in today's market so the 2011 era is pretty irrelevant to our current situation because it's an approach we couldn't have repeated

How much did Brentford pay for Ivan Toney? I think there are always gems in the right places if you know where to look. 

[Thumbbass 318]

The OP is too simplistic a view. Fingers are pointing in the wrong direction. The fault is not with a sustainable model, only with the system that allows/encourages the unsustainable to be successful. It undermines the competitiveness of the game completely. I really hoped we would be a fly in the eye of mega-corp oil barons and oligarchs, we might still be. But the answer isn't to join them. Unfortunately COVID hasn't shaken the system up enough, so here we go again with another year of Globo Mega-corp Utd.

I honestly take pride in what we represent as a club. I couldn't give 2-shoots what any plastic Liverpool/Man u/Chelsea etc fans think about us on the pitch. 

 

[Haus 259]

With ffp, how does every other club in the division manage to pay their players Premier league wages and we can't? 

[robert choice 24]

The season before last we went into the PL and DF compalined that the squad struggled because it was inexperienced. This season DF is once again repeating the same excuse of having an inexperienced squad and that mantra will continue all thay to May.

 

He got away with it first time round but it rings pretty hollow to hear the same thing being trotted out again.

[Thumbbass 318]

8 minutes ago, Haus said:

With ffp, how does every other club in the division manage to pay their players Premier league wages and we can't? 

It all depends upon how the income and expenditure is designated and accounted for I believe. If you have a large corporation then some expenditure can be hived off etc. Ultimately the club is still running at a loss but the books appear to break even.

[Danke bitte 965]

The “problem” is Farke’s playing tactics of a top 6 team with players that aren’t that calibre.

So in a round about way it does come down to £ but equally, to stay in this league, to grind it out, you have to be pragmatic and if that means being ugly so be it. But yet again we’re trying to play top 6 lite football and going in circles.

I admire what Webber and Farke have done but I don’t think it’s working at this level or ever will with this ‘style’ we’ve adopted. 

I’ll happily eat my hat should we actually pull it together but too many changes to our starting 11 and not enough time to bed the new players in has fkd our start. We’re now on the back foot and my sense is fans are losing belief and getting more frustrated as the weeks go by. Whether Webber folds to that and sacks Farke will be interesting as ultimately he’s the man on the touch line giving the orders. 

And I still genuinely don’t know where 3 pts is going to come from…

[Badger 2,405]

50 minutes ago, Haus said:

With ffp, how does every other club in the division manage to pay their players Premier league wages and we can't? 

With regards the FFP angle, the simple answer is last year's revenues.

Promoted clubs will almost certainly have made a big loss in getting promotion - bonuses, add ons etc. So although promoted teams get a big financial boost they are starting from a relative negative position.

There is also the issue that you will have players on your books that you suspect that you no longer need and quite likely have to pay them off - I suspect our loans and free transfers will have cost millions.

The big issue is staying up the first year - achieve this and you get extra money. (17th placed team will get about £10 million more than bottom because of performance payments from the Sky Money) and 3 years rather than two of parachute payments giving you time to get more expensive players that haven't worked off the books.

I would challenge "every other club:" nearly all promoted clubs have this difficulty except for obvious exceptions like Villa and Leeds who only visited the Championship because of financial mismanagement in the first place. 

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

31 minutes ago, Danke bitte said:

The “problem” is Farke’s playing tactics of a top 6 team with players that aren’t that calibre.

So in a round about way it does come down to £ but equally, to stay in this league, to grind it out, you have to be pragmatic and if that means being ugly so be it. But yet again we’re trying to play top 6 lite football and going in circles.

I admire what Webber and Farke have done but I don’t think it’s working at this level or ever will with this ‘style’ we’ve adopted. 

I’ll happily eat my hat should we actually pull it together but too many changes to our starting 11 and not enough time to bed the new players in has fkd our start. We’re now on the back foot and my sense is fans are losing belief and getting more frustrated as the weeks go by. Whether Webber folds to that and sacks Farke will be interesting as ultimately he’s the man on the touch line giving the orders. 

And I still genuinely don’t know where 3 pts is going to come from…

Agree. Problem is we only signed players to fit that system…hence I also can’t see where the points will come from. We will be out played by those better at the system and out muscled by the others.

[Uncle Fred 526]

There is an ownership model in place in the premier league that works

we have came in with an alternative model which had proven to be a disaster 

time for Delia to smell the coffee and sell up to a stinking rich Chinese billionaire 

[Badger 2,405]

14 minutes ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

So in a round about way it does come down to £ but equally, to stay in this league, to grind it out, you have to be pragmatic and if that means being ugly so be it. But yet again we’re trying to play top 6 lite football and going in circles.

I can see what you are saying and there is definitely something in it. However, the pragmatic style of say, Hodgson etc, who have kept palace in the PL for so long did not get down well here when we had Chris Hughton. He was not just unpopular at the end when it started to fall to pieces, I can remember people having a go at him for the negative style well before this.

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

The real problem is that the fans  who want a change of ownership spend all their time and effort complaining about the status quo and zero time and effort doing anything to bring that change about.

[Big Vince 318]

2 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

That Lambert team would do just as poorly as this team if not worse. The quality of this league is now much higher, there's no one in this league including us who were as poor as Wigan, Bolton, Sunderland, Blackburn, Wolves etc were in that season  and the strategy we took in terms of transfers that summer can't work anymore. There aren't players of the quality of Bennett and Pilkington in L1 anymore, certainly not for 1-3m anyway and you're looking at 10-15m+ for good Championship players now. Steve Morrison would probably cost about 10m in today's market so the 2011 era is pretty irrelevant to our current situation because it's an approach we couldn't have repeated

Are there not a couple of players on the books at Swansea who could have done a better job for us this season?

It could have been repeated to a lesser degree, instead of going for so many young players, but the point is Webber and Farke don't want to go down this route at all.

[essex canary 492]

4 hours ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

That Lambert team would do just as poorly as this team if not worse. The quality of this league is now much higher, there's no one in this league including us who were as poor as Wigan, Bolton, Sunderland, Blackburn, Wolves etc were in that season  and the strategy we took in terms of transfers that summer can't work anymore. There aren't players of the quality of Bennett and Pilkington in L1 anymore, certainly not for 1-3m anyway and you're looking at 10-15m+ for good Championship players now. Steve Morrison would probably cost about 10m in today's market so the 2011 era is pretty irrelevant to our current situation because it's an approach we couldn't have repeated

Perhaps things have moved on a little. That said one reason why this team overperformed relative to expectations was that players like Holty were grateful for the chance at top level, they would mix up the style of play eg. Holty's goal at Liverpool and older players and younger players complemented each other. Perhaps Brentford will be doing a variation on that theme this season albeit with quite a few Danish players in their squad?  Prices have moved upward because TV revenues have too. How much has really changed all things considered?

 

 

[Thingy 36]

Even the smallest PL clubs have amongst the highest playing budgets in the world and  PL clubs  have restricted squad sizes so it should be possible to afford some great players. Plus we have/had the money from Emi.

 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,155]

15 minutes ago, Thingy said:

Even the smallest PL clubs have amongst the highest playing budgets in the world and  PL clubs  have restricted squad sizes so it should be possible to afford some great players. Plus we have/had the money from Emi.

 

You do know that ALL THE OTHER CLUBS in the Premier League have great players - and in most cases lots of them? 

[Big Vince 318]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

I can see what you are saying and there is definitely something in it. However, the pragmatic style of say, Hodgson etc, who have kept palace in the PL for so long did not get down well here when we had Chris Hughton. He was not just unpopular at the end when it started to fall to pieces, I can remember people having a go at him for the negative style well before this.

Well, if the numpty supporters here don't want it then they have to accept that they and the club should stay in the Championship where they belong. If you are not going to adapt to the EPL you might as well be barred from all future promotions.

[hogesar 9,618]

16 minutes ago, Big Vince said:

Well, if the numpty supporters here don't want it then they have to accept that they and the club should stay in the Championship where they belong. If you are not going to adapt to the EPL you might as well be barred from all future promotions.

If only you were around to protest against the sacking of Hughton..

[essex canary 492]

4 hours ago, Badger said:

I can see what you are saying and there is definitely something in it. However, the pragmatic style of say, Hodgson etc, who have kept palace in the PL for so long did not get down well here when we had Chris Hughton. He was not just unpopular at the end when it started to fall to pieces, I can remember people having a go at him for the negative style well before this.

Chris Hughton's CV doesn’t match Roy Hodgsons. Not even close.

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,131]

48 minutes ago, essex canary said:

Chris Hughton's CV doesn’t match Roy Hodgsons. Not even close.

Very different style of football as well. The constant call backs to Hughton really annoy me. Other 'defensive' managers like Hodgson, Allardyce etc do set up their teams defensivly but are lightening quick on the break, under Hughton we moved the ball forward slowly to try to win a set piece and not lose our shape, we didn't really counter attack and that was why fans hated his football so much.

 

If hypothetically we were being managed by someone like Hodgson I don't think fans would have too much of an issue with his style of play because we would create chances and the cpunter attacks would be exciting. 

 

I said on another thread that we're still suffering a hangover from the Hughton era as the club took our dislike of that style of football to mean that we as fans demand that we play like Barcalona or Ajax, like because we didn't like that one extreme must mean that we'll have to go completely in the opposite direction at the expense of results. We as fans don't demand a 'norwich way' or any of that nonsense we just want to see football that gives us the best chance of winning without sticking 10 men behind the ball, never getting forward and playing for set pieces, there's so many different approaches you could take outside of those parameters and it doesn't mean you have to stubbornly lurch to the other extreme end of the spectrum. 

So many people think there are only two styles of football and it really annoys me. You can be effective as a weaker team, defensively solid and create chances on the break and it would look nothing like what we suffered under Hughton. 

[Danke bitte 965]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

I can see what you are saying and there is definitely something in it. However, the pragmatic style of say, Hodgson etc, who have kept palace in the PL for so long did not get down well here when we had Chris Hughton. He was not just unpopular at the end when it started to fall to pieces, I can remember people having a go at him for the negative style well before this.

You’re actually quoting me but I get the sentiment! 😉

I just think getting us where we want to be, wherever that is, requires us to be pragmatic for a few seasons rather than play attractive football just to get relegated again. 

Im not sure what’s worse, consistent embarrassing relegation or ugly football?

This ‘ignore the noise’ mantra works but only to a certain extent, Webber and Farke aren’t ingrained in the club like the fans are. For them it’s a passing job. Though I admire the sentiment (again) the noise is getting a little too loud, too close for comfort and whether he likes it or not, Webber’s hand will be forced unless things change. 
 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Danke bitte

[essex canary 492]

Yes absolutely re the last 2 posts. Sure we love to see goals like Redmond at Wembley but we like to see those like Holt's rambo goal at Anfield too. 

Perhaps 10 years ago to a certain extent our risk reward strategy was influenced by a non executive  financial expert in the Boardroom. It should always work like that rather than be dominated by here today, gone tomorrow executives.

[Commonsense 618]

On 22/09/2021 at 22:02, robert choice said:

Unfortunately 'self funding' and 'Premier League' will never belong in the same sentence.

 

Apart from this one.

No need to worry yourself about it, Binner.

Looking dodgy as to whether rich American and League 1 fit together in the same sentence.

[Nuff Said 5,091]

16 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

Agree. Problem is we only signed players to fit that system…hence I also can’t see where the points will come from. We will be out played by those better at the system and out muscled by the others.

Hang on, I thought “the problem” was that we don’t have enough income to pay high enough wages for the quality of players needed for the PL? Now you’re saying it’s that we are too ambitious in our tactics with the players we have?
 

The way you’re going, you’ll soon be arguing that it’s actually a complex problem, there are many different factors at play and simplistic, whining posts that don’t acknowledge the nuanced situation and which ascribe all our woes to the owners are stupid. In which case, I would agree with you.

[Badger 2,405]

16 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

The real problem is that the fans  who want a change of ownership spend all their time and effort complaining about the status quo and zero time and effort doing anything to bring that change about.

They are also in denial about the ownership of other clubs and can't see past Leicester. Two very noticeable trends:

1. "Every PL club can spend more than us..." This is demonstrably not the case

2. New ownership will bring more success - the vast majority of new owners at clubs "our size" fail. (Normal response to this fact is - but we could be Leicester)

However, whenever facts are produced which challenge both vacuous assumptions they proclaim disinterest in any other club other than Norwich. Fair enough, but don't then post claiming to know what other clubs do, or proclaim the supremacy of other forms of ownership - even "stinking rich Chinese investors" have a very mixed record!

 

[Badger 2,405]

18 minutes ago, Nuff Said said:

Hang on, I thought “the problem” was that we don’t have enough income to pay high enough wages for the quality of players needed for the PL? Now you’re saying it’s that we are too ambitious in our tactics with the players we have?

Yes - I think that this could be the new line of attack - "we are too ambitious!"

1. Instead of buying young players with huge potential we should pay massive ages for middle aged has-beens (or nearly-weres) - "too ambitious in who we buy."

2. Instead of trying to play attractive football we should get 8 massive lumps and sit behind the ball, and when we get it kick it forward to the head of a big 'un with a quick 'un nearby. Oh and spend 3 days a week on set pieces. "We are too ambitious in our tactics."

[Badger 2,405]

10 hours ago, Danke bitte said:

I just think getting us where we want to be, wherever that is, requires us to be pragmatic for a few seasons rather than play attractive football just to get relegated again. 

Im not sure what’s worse, consistent embarrassing relegation or ugly football?

1. I can't say that you are wrong - a Hughtonesque style or Pulis ball might improve our chances of staying up. We certainly had one good season under Hughton. However, it was never very popular with the fans and talk of "the Norwich way" came to the fore. Would they be prepared for the pragmatic style now? I wouldn't like it, but others might.

2. The problem is when trying to switch from the pragmatic to something more attractive after a few years. Palace tried this with de Boer but sacked him after 5 games! It is one of the interesting things to see this season with Viera - can he succeed where De Boer failed? Post-Pulis Stoke got relegated etc

3. The third problem of resorting to hoof ball is that if we are relegated again it may make if harder to get back up again. We will just be another pragmatic championship team. You won't be able to transform the pragmatic bruisers you have bought for Pulis ball into possession dominating thoroughbreds.

I would be against a reversion to Hughton-style pragmatism myself, but it is only an opinion: others might welcome it

[Badger 2,405]

12 hours ago, essex canary said:

Chris Hughton's CV doesn’t match Roy Hodgsons. Not even close.

True.