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TeemuVanBasten

Webber Out

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Just now, Commonsense said:

FFS is that the best you’ve got!!!

I didn't think it was bad off the top of my bonce.

Lampard struggled with big money egos towards the end with Chelsea, but no danger of encountering any of those at Norwich.

He excelled at bringing through domestic youth players, several of them now playing for England! 

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1 minute ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Apologies if I’m wrong but I thought you’d brought into it a few months ago. 

I've been pretty f*cked off since we sold Buendia for less than he is worth, to a mid-table side.

 

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Yes Buendia was our best player last season, so why did we sell him to Villa?

A: He wanted to move on

He’s had attitude problems in the past and had we not let him go I think we would probably have ended up paying the consequences of doing so

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This bloke Webber - loves getting the attention when we are promoted, grabbing as much of the credit he can, but when the team's in trouble fades away into the woodwork leaving DF to take the hammering. Selling Buendia  for peanuts and not renewing Vrancic's contract and the clueless on here think posters are beating the club with a stick ! Webber has sold our biggest player and spent all the money we got for him on" lemons" ! Rashica is OK but the others are average footballers - "a dime a dozen" .

Reminds me of the dark period after the successful 1992-94 team - the lights of Mark Robins, Ekoku, Sutton, Fox were sold and were replaced by players like Mike Milligan and Mike Sheron. We went top of the premiership to lower championship in one season and stayed there. DF can only do the best he can with the resources he's given. Matter of fact DL has done better than expected. Brentford & Watford have not sold their best players - we got rid of our x-factor players. Webber to blame. Can't replace him ?! there are pretty of good footballing brains out there if you look hard enough.

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Webber made a decision. He should be judged on the basis of it. The oft-repeated line about "he wanted to leave and therefore we had to sell" is just a convenient excuse. We know it's not that simple, and there are many examples to the contrary. 

Let's face it, it's looking increasingly like the board just sold our best player and then p*ssed the proceeds up the wall, leaving us with a worse squad than last season. That should not go without scrutiny. 

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8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

How is Farke supposed to lose his best player, his only top 6 quality player, our talisman, somebody critical to everything that we did on the pitch over the past three years, and then get us winning in the top tier with either a 19 year old or a recently relegated Kosovan as his replacement. 

How is he supposed to integrate a defensive midfielder brought in at the end of the transfer window, essential first XI players need to be through the door by early July for the full pre-season. Defensive midfield was our absolute number 1 priority position, it had to have been, and Webber has just done the whole of the pre-season without one.

Same with the centre back, failure to land Ajer out of stubborness has seen us panic and loan a youngster again, with no time to integrate. Terrible transfer window, some players brought in far too late, giving Farke no time whatsoever to get them ticking as a team.

This constant desire to impress the outside world by being 'left field' and pretentious all the time, why do we buy from Germany and France instead of from the Championhip? 46 games in the Championship last season and we found nobody to bring up with us? Signing from the lower league in this country is the Norwich way; we've always bought from the Championship when in the Prem, and from League One when in the Championship. 

Stringer, Walker, Worthington, Lambert. This is the Norwich way. Our business from Germany has, on the whole, been atrocious. 

Why are we blaming the head coach for failure to recruit well? Farke does not sign the players

 

God your boring 

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On 21/09/2021 at 22:23, Commonsense said:

FFS is that the best you’ve got!!!

BTW, I voted not to sack Farke, and this thread is mine and is called 'Webber Out' and defends Farke. 

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On 22/09/2021 at 06:05, Jsim1986 said:

God your boring 

I get to decide whether you make it to heaven though, and it is getting a bit crowded up here so I don't fancy your chances. 

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I still think it's way too early to react. Webber knows what is at stake - if he fails this season, where does he go, to another Champs club to do the same thing again? He failed to establish Huddersfield; if he fails to establish Norwich too, where does his big job come from? Likewise Farke. Fail this season to stay up and he's forever known as the coach who couldn't hack it in the EPL.

We have to give them time before we throw either or both under the bus. We don't owe them anything - it's just the right thing to do, given the position we are in. 

Too many people on here are listening to the media garbage and being influenced by the opinions of people who know sweet FA about our club. Either that or they are letting their disappointment get the better of them. The mantra is still the same - Ignore the noise. To that I would add - look at the performance, not the result.

We started badly against Liverpool and we have to learn quickly, but for much of the game we competed quite comfortably. We had more shots on target, lots of chances and on another day would have beaten them.

We have good players who are currently making mistakes and this league is cruel. It will change.

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1 minute ago, sgncfc said:

I still think it's way too early to react. Webber knows what is at stake - if he fails this season, where does he go, to another Champs club to do the same thing again? He failed to establish Huddersfield; if he fails to establish Norwich too, where does his big job come from? Likewise Farke. Fail this season to stay up and he's forever known as the coach who couldn't hack it in the EPL.

This is my thinking too, we all expect him to move on after this season, but if our current trajectory continues for the rest of the season what PL or top level European side is really going to want him?

Yes our overall progress would've still been an improvement under his reign, though you could also argue the midtable championship finishes were the outlier in our recent history; and what we really saw was just a return to the 'norm', with us consistently at the top of the champs and bottom of the prem for the previous 5 years or so prior to him joining.  

Maybe he could find another club similar to ours trying to establish itself in the top league, but I can't imagine much better than that. So will that really be what he wants to do? Particularly if it comes with a giant mess to clean up, I'm not sure why he would want to leave the stability and progress he has established here for a club of slightly better stature that's underachieving and in disarray behind the scenes. Then again he did leave Huddersfield for us when they looked to be in better shape in that moment!

I also don't think he did 'fail to establish Huddersfield'? I though he had jumped ship and joined us just before they got promoted via the play-offs? But maybe not!

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On 21/09/2021 at 21:52, Dean Coneys boots said:

I was flamed for questioning the window all summer - I said we needed grit and physicality and instead they signed more lightweight kids looking to future resale value. It has left us totally uncompetitive- fans deserve better.  

But, you didn't question the window all summer, did you DCB?

What you actually said, once we'd made all our signings, was:

On 31/08/2021 at 07:26, Dean Coneys boots said:

Fair credit to the board. Those two signings have turned this into a very solid transfer window indeed- perhaps the best I can remember on paper. Bravo Webber two days have totally plugged the gaps. My bad for doubting! 

Don’t know much (anything) about Normann but hope he is the CDM we are crying out for. Kabak is a huge signing for us- marquee. 
 

I've put the key bit in bold, just in case you didn't want to read through everything you posted.

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Push him out of the club and the only way is down I'm afraid.  If people are too blind to see that then they need to review where we were vs where we are.   And that's not just league position, but the players that we've developed, facilities developed and the mindset around the club. 

So much has gone into place under his supervision, and they have a huge long-term benefit for us all.  Look at the training facility changes and what that means to players considering a move here.

His background is heading up youth developments and recruitment/scouting at clubs like Liverpool & Wolves.  It's not like he's a chancer who's got lucky, look at Huddersfield where they made it to the top flight for the first since 1970s.  This man is a hard worker striving to be the best, and that's the mentality he's installed at the club.

We were very lucky with the McNally/Lambert combination, and repeated again with Farke/Webber.  Honestly, I think it's pushing our luck to think it'd happen a third time.

For those who need some clarification on how the guy works and his background this is well worth a listen:-

https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrcfT9/

Massive respect to him, and sure there's mistakes made along the way - that's how you learn. 99 points to play for and we're 3 adrift.  Is it really worth ripping all this up and starting again?

Edited by Google Bot
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21 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

He failed to establish Huddersfield

He left to join us when they were promoted, are you suggesting he was moonlighting?! lol

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42 minutes ago, hogesar said:

But, you didn't question the window all summer, did you DCB?

What you actually said, once we'd made all our signings, was:

I've put the key bit in bold, just in case you didn't want to read through everything you posted.

You chose one post of many - plenty of times I bemoaned the lack of physicality and replacement of Skipp- and the selling of Emi. That post you quote was after Kabak and Normann which were, as stated, good acquisitions. I think on paper we did do quite well - but the issues I have consistently raised (Ajer, board limitations, lack of grit etc) alongside that post continue to hamper us. If you doubt me look at the table and goals against column. 

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1 minute ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

You chose one post of many - plenty of times I bemoaned the lack of physicality and replacement of Skipp- and the selling of Emi. That post you quote was after Kabak and Normann which were, as stated, good acquisitions. I think on paper we did do quite well - but the issues I have consistently raised (Ajer, board limitations, lack of grit etc) alongside that post continue to hamper us. If you doubt me look at the table and goals against column. 

Now hold on a minute. You can't post what you did at the end of the window and then claim you still hold the previous criticisms you posted beforehand. You yourself said, "my bad for doubting". I'm afraid, that rules out all the previous stuff you posted.

So, no less than 23 days ago you credited the board for one of the best windows we've ever had and Webber for plugging all the gaps.

Skip back to present time, only a mere 23 days later, and you've gone full circle and basically agreeing that Webber should be sacked. 

That is the literal definition of petty, pant-wetting and flippant rubbish.

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7 hours ago, Google Bot said:

He left to join us when they were promoted, are you suggesting he was moonlighting?! lol

Yeah, I'm not sure its fair to level that at Webber either.

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On 21/09/2021 at 21:49, TeemuVanBasten said:

A mid-table Championship side selling their best player is completely different from a newly promoted side selling their best player and immediately waving goodbye to any chance they have of carrying momentum and a winning mentality into the top tier. 

Now, let me set you a challenge. You give me one example of a similar thing happening in the top tier of English football at any time since the formation of the Premier League and I'll decide whether you've even got any credibility to lose. 

Because I've actually looked into this and could only find one example, it was when Derby County sold Seth Johnson to Leeds. Then they got relegated. 

Sadly, there is a good point hidden amongst the part I emboldened. What you have done though, is butchered that good point, quite horrendously.

Emi Buendia was about as far from representative of our winning mentality and carrier of momentum as you could find in our squad. He wanted gone last summer. Various sources have now supported this and made it relatively clear that whilst there was no official agreement there was some sort of mutual acceptance that he would leave at the end of last season. The deal itself was being orchestrated many months before May, when he moved.

There are two frequent failures in this argument in that usually players are sold upon relegation. And the club could have buckled and sold him last summer. This would have made returning to the premier league much more difficult. Even if we had received a similar amount of money for him, the calibre of player we could bring to the club in the Championship with ease would be vastly different to when in the premier league. Put another way, players that are potentially worth £10-£20m plying their trade in the German, French, Dutch, Italian or even Greek top leagues are not going to see themselves as championship players. Giannoulis, for example, came to us in January because he could see with some confidence that we would be promoted. He also had the security of it being a loan and that he would not have been signed if we did not gain promotion.

So when argued "no clubs sell their best players upon promotion" the reality is we fought to keep him to get the promotion we sold him after. If anyone was to have given most of us the choice of promotion or selling Buendia last summer which would we have taken? Promotion every time without fail. I don't want any player here that doesn't want to be. They become a rot that then sets in amongst the rest of the squad.

But lets go back a few steps. The emboldened bit. Specifically "carrying momentum and winning mentality". We had that in abundance in our last premier league campaign. A team buzzing and full of characters who may not have been the best footballers and so appreciated the feat they had managed of a championship title when very few had them down for a top 6 finish let alone No.1 spot.

Fast forward to this summer. On 1st August we had yet to sign 5 players - Sargent, Williams, Tzolis, Normann and Kabak. We had lost Stiepermann, Tettey, Vrancic, Leitner, Trybull, Klose, Drmic and were to lose Hernandez, Martin and Hugill on loan in addition. 10 players in and around the first team picture. 5 of them at least who had experienced the first promotion. Others whom were said to be big orchestrators of the dressing room positivity like Hernandez and Hugill, for example.

So, Sargent signed on the 9th August, the others all signed after him, though Tzolis closest to him on the 12th. Those two were therefore with the club for 6 weeks as of the Monday just gone. Two of those 6 weeks were spent away on international duty. So in reality have had four weeks training with the squad. Kabak and Normann signed at the end of August, not yet 4 weeks ago and again, both were away on international duty for two weeks meaning they have only spent just under two weeks training with our squad. Williams wasn't involved in international duty but was signed a month ago today.

Couple that with the fact that all of those plus Rashica, PLM, Gunn and Gilmore are also new editions this summer and the likes of Omobamidele who was only brought into the first team fold towards the end of last season and Mumba who played a bit part role you very much have a large percentage of players that are fresh to the team in terms of having experienced that championship tilt to carry that momentum and winning mentality.

That is always a huge risk of switching a lot of your players and clearly why Webber and Farke have previously gambled on players a notch or two bellow what they wanted to get them in early and get them bedded into the squad and team much sooner.

This isn't an excuse, it's merely an observation. We are seeing disconnection between players, lack of communication, lack of taking responsibility and leadership, some players waiting for commands rather than using initiative, balls not quite in keeping with the run being made etc etc etc. All signs of players not quite connecting and not quite on each others wavelengths.

Importantly this is also why I feel things are different now to the last ten games of two seasons ago. I don't feel that these are players, perhaps playing above their level not quite having the legs to carry them without the support of 27k fans to back them. What I see are individuals still adjusting to their surroundings and a frustrated coach wanting this much quicker than it's happening whilst also understanding it is a big, big ask.

The key question for me is that this is a new question of Farke. Given time with players he has often done well, getting more from a team than the collection of individuals on paper would suggest he should. He has had very little to no time this summer, either because of covid disrupting friendlies and training or because signings have come in much closer to the deadline and having less time and much more difficult games to get them up to speed with.

You can start four or five new players against Huddersfield in the championship and know that even if they can only give 2nd gear the rest of the team will carry them through. In the Premier League, against Man City, Liverpool, Leicester and even a poor Arsenal, those luxuries are ill afforded.

It's a big question. Farke now has the added pressure of trying to get this team clicking and working together whilst combating the additional stresses and strains of five league defeats in a row.

There isn't anything more to this than that. Is Farke capable of overcoming a scenario he hasn't really faced with us before whilst combating one he has?

The new players, on the whole, are not rubbish. They all have shown glimpses of quality, moments of class and flashes of why they have been brought in to replace those going out, just not consistently and not together as a whole. For me it is a coaching issue, a team issue, not one of players signed.

And our signings since Webber has come in have on the whole been a success. You can't expect them all to go well but we have had a high percentage of successes. 

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*Oh, also, we sold Bradley Johnson on promotion... not that it really proves it's a good idea... but he was one of our better players at the time as well.

One or two teams have sacked their manager on promotion too. I think there are a few examples of promoted teams selling good players. Bournemouth sold us Grabban, I think they sold Ritchie to Newcastle as well and he was solid for them.

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As far as I can work out when we signed players over the past three transfer windows they had 10 PL defeats written into their contracts. A tad unfair but there you are...

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53 minutes ago, chicken said:

*Oh, also, we sold Bradley Johnson on promotion... not that it really proves it's a good idea... but he was one of our better players at the time as well.

One or two teams have sacked their manager on promotion too. I think there are a few examples of promoted teams selling good players. Bournemouth sold us Grabban, I think they sold Ritchie to Newcastle as well and he was solid for them.

So, you make some good points in your long post.

But I don't think you need me to tell you that the sale of Bradley Johnson is simply not comparable in any way to the sale of one of our greatest ever talents.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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49 minutes ago, chicken said:

*Oh, also, we sold Bradley Johnson on promotion... not that it really proves it's a good idea... but he was one of our better players at the time as well.

One or two teams have sacked their manager on promotion too. I think there are a few examples of promoted teams selling good players. Bournemouth sold us Grabban, I think they sold Ritchie to Newcastle as well and he was solid for them.

Bournemouth sold as Lewis Grabban at the end of the 2013/14 season, as a Championship side, and didn't get promoted until the following season. Norwich and Bournemouth were promoted together, Grabban went up with us... via the play-offs. 

Matt Ritchie played a full-season in the Premier League before he was sold to Newcastle.

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7 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

So, you make some good points in your long post.

But I don't think you need me to tell you that the sale of Bradley Johnson is simply not comparable in any way to the sale of one of our greatest ever talents.

I mean all of that is inconsequential. The post is long because it is considered, balanced and reasoned. I know I make good points. Sadly you continue to pursue with the very bad ones and continue to add to them. I tried to show where you were correct and should drive home the point, but in your two responses to me, you failed to pick up on them and run.

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34 minutes ago, chicken said:

I mean all of that is inconsequential. The post is long because it is considered, balanced and reasoned. I know I make good points. Sadly you continue to pursue with the very bad ones and continue to add to them. I tried to show where you were correct and should drive home the point, but in your two responses to me, you failed to pick up on them and run.

I agreed with most of your post.

I'm not sure why you think it was tailored to me though, you talk about the pressures facing Farke several times, I've literally voted in a poll that I created for him to be given more time.... to integrate his new signings, settle the squad and find his best XI and variations thereof. 

So I'm not sure what it is exactly that you've said that you'd think I'd find enlightening. 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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1 hour ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I agreed with most of your post.

1) I'm not sure why you think it was tailored to me though, you talk about the pressures facing Farke several times, I've literally voted in a poll that I created for him to be given more time.... to integrate his new signings, settle the squad and find his best XI and variations thereof. 

2) So I'm not sure what it is exactly that you've said that you'd think I'd find enlightening. 

1) fantastic, well done you. It only forms part of my post though.
2) Probably nothing, you very rarely, if ever, seem to change your point of view on here - I doubt you find much enlightening at all.

However to simplify. You put a lot of stock in Buendia being the centrepiece of all of our recent success. I can throw in popular arguments such as chances created, or assists or other things in our last premier league campaign, but in reality he also gave the ball away a lot, including giving away more goals to opponents than any other midfielder in the PL that season - more than any of our defenders.

His histrionics and petulance no doubt cost us points. He was one of the most disappointing performers in project restart. Often without Pukki ahead of him. The red cards, the yellow cards, the slapping the ground when he didn't pass then tried to take on three or four defenders at once and then tried to argue he had been fouled to cover for a poor decision. He's not top 6 quality either.

And last summer he wanted out. He wanted gone. And you don't keep players that want out.

The biggest reason for our success since Webber's arrival and subsequently that of Farke, has been team spirit. We have often achieved more than expected with the players at our disposal. To the degree that sometimes signings have been left behind due to the speed of the progress. Heisse, for example, was signed as a Championship defender, saw us promoted with a youngster in Jamal Lewis having more than proven  himself as first choice. Our level had quickly outgrown his ability.

I think there are players more worthy of titles like "talisman" such as Pukki. The number of goals he has scored is nuts. He willingly chases lost causes, he led the way for Buendia who appeared to at least take his example to remodel his play and work ethic.

You attributed all of our loss of momentum and winning mentality to one player - which is just so unbelievably wrong. My point wasn't that Farke needs more time - though that is possibly a good argument to draw from it - but that you sort of skimmed the head of the nail before pressing home with entirely the wrong direction that contradicted it. No, my argument was that when you change a squad by as many players as we have, that momentum is gone, that winning mentality muddied.

Yes it takes time for a new rhythm to be found/established. But you can't lose players like Tettey, Stiepermann, Hugill, Hernandez, Vrancic et al as well as Buendia and expect to maintain the togetherness of last season in terms of momentum and spirit. If we had just lost Buendia I doubt we would be having the same squad issues, certainly not anywhere near to the degree we are.

Gunn, Williams, Kabak, Normann, PLM, Gilmore, Tzolis, Rashica and Sargent. Arguably you can throw in Omobamidele who only came into contention at the end of last season so this is his first proper season as part of the first team set up. If you concede these players were bought to improve our side, then you are talking about at least 8 players who are to be considered contenders to genuine regular starts. Ergo, nothing to do with Buendia and everything to do with the amount of changing of the guard.

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22 minutes ago, chicken said:

1) fantastic, well done you. It only forms part of my post though.
2) Probably nothing, you very rarely, if ever, seem to change your point of view on here - I doubt you find much enlightening at all.

However to simplify. You put a lot of stock in Buendia being the centrepiece of all of our recent success. I can throw in popular arguments such as chances created, or assists or other things in our last premier league campaign, but in reality he also gave the ball away a lot, including giving away more goals to opponents than any other midfielder in the PL that season - more than any of our defenders.

His histrionics and petulance no doubt cost us points. He was one of the most disappointing performers in project restart. Often without Pukki ahead of him. The red cards, the yellow cards, the slapping the ground when he didn't pass then tried to take on three or four defenders at once and then tried to argue he had been fouled to cover for a poor decision. He's not top 6 quality either.

And last summer he wanted out. He wanted gone. And you don't keep players that want out.

The biggest reason for our success since Webber's arrival and subsequently that of Farke, has been team spirit. We have often achieved more than expected with the players at our disposal. To the degree that sometimes signings have been left behind due to the speed of the progress. Heisse, for example, was signed as a Championship defender, saw us promoted with a youngster in Jamal Lewis having more than proven  himself as first choice. Our level had quickly outgrown his ability.

I think there are players more worthy of titles like "talisman" such as Pukki. The number of goals he has scored is nuts. He willingly chases lost causes, he led the way for Buendia who appeared to at least take his example to remodel his play and work ethic.

You attributed all of our loss of momentum and winning mentality to one player - which is just so unbelievably wrong. My point wasn't that Farke needs more time - though that is possibly a good argument to draw from it - but that you sort of skimmed the head of the nail before pressing home with entirely the wrong direction that contradicted it. No, my argument was that when you change a squad by as many players as we have, that momentum is gone, that winning mentality muddied.

Yes it takes time for a new rhythm to be found/established. But you can't lose players like Tettey, Stiepermann, Hugill, Hernandez, Vrancic et al as well as Buendia and expect to maintain the togetherness of last season in terms of momentum and spirit. If we had just lost Buendia I doubt we would be having the same squad issues, certainly not anywhere near to the degree we are.

Gunn, Williams, Kabak, Normann, PLM, Gilmore, Tzolis, Rashica and Sargent. Arguably you can throw in Omobamidele who only came into contention at the end of last season so this is his first proper season as part of the first team set up. If you concede these players were bought to improve our side, then you are talking about at least 8 players who are to be considered contenders to genuine regular starts. Ergo, nothing to do with Buendia and everything to do with the amount of changing of the guard.

Good grief.

I told you that I liked your post and agreed with most of it.

With all these additional paragraphs as you might as well be begging me to suck you off instead.

I think it has quite a lot to do with us losing our talisman, our primary playmaker, the player that almost everything we ever created went through. But it also has a fair bit to do with a failure to land a Skipp replacement early and then get them integrated.

I really have no idea why you are throwing a load of names of new signings at me and listing players who leave. You could easily be arguing that Webber has attempted to change too much in a single window.

Either one of Tzolis or Rashica needs to find their rhythm and deliver the chances we need to win games, to replace what we lost with Buendia, and Norman needs to show himself an adequate Skipp replacement, and if those two things don't happen then the other 8 signings are pointless when it comes to the imperative short term objective of staying in the Premier League this time. We won't achieve that if we don't have a productive playmaker and effective and reliable defensive midfielder.

Jury is still out on the quality of all the signings for me. If you re-read my OP you'd see that I was primarily concerned with how late the more crucial of those signings arrived, particularly the defensive midfielder, but then I suspect you are just being your usual disingenuous self and know this full well; you are now dragging the argument so far away from my actual point that one could be forgiven to think that you are just grandstanding and projecting for the attention that your mummy and daddy never gave you as a child.

You are so dim that you don't realise that you are supporting my own argument, by emphasizing that it takes time to integrate players and find a rhythm, which is precisely why I'm calling Webber out for delivering the DM and CB at the end of the window, when we needed our most important players in through the door at the start of July.

When we sold Maddison and invested to move forward as a club we did the bulk of our business very early to give the bulk of the squad a full pre-season together. They've been deprived of that this time. We didn't act decisively enough, and the decision not to increase our Ajer bid on a point of principle might look like a bad one.  

 

 

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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TLDR: Chicken doesn't particularly rate Buendia (plus usual argument about how he simply had to leave and the board had no choice, etc...).

Not rating the club's standout player the of last 10 years seems a bit of an odd point of view, but I guess he's entitled to his opinion. 

I do wonder if he formed this opinion before or after he left though. 

Edited by The Bunny
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