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Hardhouse44

We haven’t signed good enough players!

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1 hour ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Yeah maybe I was but it was up to him and the club to prove me wrong. It happened from the off! You could see from the off he was a good player. Made intelligent runs, positional awareness. You could see it. I’m yet to “see it” from our latest crop! 

I saw that in Pukki from the off. Even more so Emi who was obviously the real deal. 

Yesterday I was particularly impressed by Sargent, Normann and Kabak who I thought showed real promise. The result clouds everything though. 

The thing that frustrated me most yesterday was taking Normann and Sargent off. Whatever excuse there is for that didn't stop me being disappointed. Our performance after they went off was more like what we saw last time in the PL.

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1 hour ago, The Bunny said:

Fans love to bang on about these signings as to suggest somehow that our recruitment team can do no wrong, and the next signing could be just as good. Let's look at the reality. These successes were a long time ago. The vast majority of our subsequent signings have been nothing like this level of quality. It's been 90% dross, in fact. Most of our signings have struggled to displace first team players. 

There is such a thing as luck, but it balances out in the end. Anomalies are just that. 

So how many had heard of them?

Your reply appears to be to fans banging on or something. But you quoted my post.

 

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37 minutes ago, Virtual reality said:

Valid point but it’s a much different ball game settling in at Premier League level than Championship. The danger we have is that by the time they have settled in we will be cut adrift. Teemu, Emi and the rest had the relative luxury of being able to find their feet at a lower level. We need the new signings to pretty much hit the ground running at this level and that’s a big ask 

So are you writing them off? Based on what?

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1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

I saw that in Pukki from the off. Even more so Emi who was obviously the real deal. 

Yesterday I was particularly impressed by Sargent, Normann and Kabak who I thought showed real promise. The result clouds everything though. 

The thing that frustrated me most yesterday was taking Normann and Sargent off. Whatever excuse there is for that didn't stop me being disappointed. Our performance after they went off was more like what we saw last time in the PL.

Thought Sargent was our best player yesterday. Saw nothing in Kabaks performance, thought he was at fault for their first goal. Normann put the ball through for Pukki but also failed to track the run which lead to their second. Apart from that he was, hmmm average.  
Sargent played ok yesterday but was he at a level that would affect the result of a premier league game. 

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3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I saw that in Pukki from the off. Even more so Emi who was obviously the real deal. 

Yesterday I was particularly impressed by Sargent, Normann and Kabak who I thought showed real promise. The result clouds everything though. 

The thing that frustrated me most yesterday was taking Normann and Sargent off. Whatever excuse there is for that didn't stop me being disappointed. Our performance after they went off was more like what we saw last time in the PL.

I can only assume substitutions were precautionary, with Kabak & Norman playing their first games, and Sargent coming off worse than others with his jet setting.

Shows that when the quality goes the usual suspects start ball watching and we let the usual errors creep in.

Would like Omo to be given a run with Kabak, and if we need to provide protective cover for the back 4, have Normann and PLM/Sorensen, playing as a two DM, but can't see Farke going for that. Would also allow Tzolis, Sargent & Rash playing behind Pukki,

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Genuine question and not being provocative but has anyone seen anything to suggest that results are going to turn in our favour and quickly?

Unfortunately I have not. It's just how it is at the moment and maybe for some time 

 

Edited by Chelm Canary
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33 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Thought Sargent was our best player yesterday. Saw nothing in Kabaks performance, thought he was at fault for their first goal. Normann put the ball through for Pukki but also failed to track the run which lead to their second. Apart from that he was, hmmm average.  
Sargent played ok yesterday but was he at a level that would affect the result of a premier league game. 

What I liked most about Kabak was his strength and determination to step out with the ball to get us up the pitch. It's a different approach for us. Somewhere between passing around our own box and hoofing. Yes he was partly at fault for the goal but if you only remember that you'd be better off watching a highlights reel 🙃 

Normann hade a decent debut and I'm confident will improve. It was a great ball to Pukki for the goal. Yes he didn't track the run that led to the second but the promise outweighs the mistake for me.

Sargent I enjoyed, think he will become a fans favourite. Not like Emi or Wes, but in many ways he reminded me of Keith Bertschin from days of old. 

 

Edited by nutty nigel
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Anyone under the illusion that these were ready made players are smoking the good stuff.  I remember only a few weeks back people claiming that Farke had no excuses now he has the players - it was just crazy talk.

It's all on Farke's team to turn this into diamonds and he's had so little time to do it.  As i see it, we either write them off and give up the season, or we put some trust in the system and give them time to gel - we're nowhere near seeing the best of them yet, *Tzolis hasn't even started a prem game, Kabak and Normann first game in the yellow shirt. 

Still a long long way to go before i start crapping the bed.  Can't lie, i can feel the bad stomach and wind filling the duvet... But holding it in for a few weeks yet. 😉

* Sorry, got that wrong duh.  Perhaps should've said Tzolis hasn't had a full game yet.

Edited by Google Bot
Tzolis started vs Arsenal
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2 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Anyone under the illusion that these were ready made players are smoking the good stuff.  I remember only a few weeks back people claiming that Farke had no excuses now he has the players - it was just crazy talk.

It's all on Farke's team to turn this into diamonds and he's had so little time to do it.  As i see it, we either write them off and give up the season, or we put some trust in the system and give them time to gel - we're nowhere near seeing the best of them yet, Tzolis hasn't even started a prem game, Kabak and Normann first game in the yellow shirt. 

Still a long long way to go before i start crapping the bed.  Can't lie, i can feel the bad stomach and wind filling the duvet... But holding it in for a few weeks yet. 😉

Tzolis started against Arsenal!
 

First game! When is someone going to have a cracking debut. They do happen you know!

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Why do our players always need so long to gel or adapt? Bailey, Ings and Buendia already scoring for Villa, Edouard goals on debut for Palace, Dennis scoring in multiple games including debut for Watford, Ajer a rock in a Brentford defence that's conceded twice, Gray with a couple for Everton not all them had previous Premier league experience. 

And this is just off the top of my head without delving deeper into summer signing, and of course I've deliberately not included Lukaku or Ronaldo. 

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2 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

Tzolis started against Arsenal!

Damn, you're right.  I thought Rashica started and Tzolis replaced him for some reason - felt like he only had half a game in my head.

Well that's depressed me now, still thinking we had that card up our sleeve. 😞

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2 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I was in the audience Housey. And it was disappointing.

If you had heard of Pukki I expect you were totally unimpressed with his signing.

I’d heard of Pukki and was absolutely buzzing when he signed.

Not a clue about Buendia though. Fell in love with the signing after the substitute appearance at Preston though

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1 minute ago, Dr Greenthumb said:

I’d heard of Pukki and was absolutely buzzing when he signed.

Not a clue about Buendia though. Fell in love with the signing after the substitute appearance at Preston though

So how do you feel about Kabak, Normann and Sargent?

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1 minute ago, Ken Hairy said:

Bailey, Ings and Buendia already scoring for Villa, Edouard goals on debut for Palace, Dennis scoring in multiple games including debut for Watford, Ajer a rock in a Brentford defence that's conceded twice, Gray with a couple for Everton not all them had previous Premier league experience. 

Because they are players peppered around other established/experienced players, our entire squad is pretty much inexperienced at this level so it's not like you have one position to gel into place. 

That's how I read it anyway.  If we only brought in top replacements for Skipp and Emi and then an extra CB I think it'd be more manageable at this point.  

We have key players like Kabak and Normann who've had barely over a weeks to spend with the squad.   Ajer has had, what, 5 weeks?  Most of the above have had at least 4-5 weeks to adapt and fit in too, most were in place in July.  Which is the very definition of 'time'.

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1 minute ago, Google Bot said:

Because they are players peppered around other established/experienced players, our entire squad is pretty much inexperienced at this level so it's not like you have one position to gel into place.

Watford have signed the same amount of players as us 🤷‍♂️

If we saying we didn't get them in early enough that's on Webber, but it's the same every season since Webber and Farke have been here, no matter how early in the window we get our business done we always waste the first 1/3 of a season. You can get away with it in the Championship and still mount a promotion but that almost certainly guarantees relegation in the Premier. 

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29 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

Anyone under the illusion that these were ready made players are smoking the good stuff

Fair comment to an extent but we've lost every game so far and a humiliating home defeat against Watford yesterday. 

If they can't perform at this level or need a lot of time to adapt then it's not going to keep us up

This league is absolutely ruthless and it waits for nobody. 

Every lose now is a win or draw needed later and that's assuming our new players are suddenly going to boss the opposition when or if they come good. It's a big ask at this point. A very big ask. 

 

Edited by Chelm Canary

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It will be interesting to see what we do with Gilmour. Pub talk suggests the loan fee is anything between 0 and £6m depending on appearances, where less means more. I've no idea how accurate that is but if it's anything like the latter then we can expect to see quite a bit of him! I want to see the Gilmour that plays for Scotland, not the one we've got. 

Not sure we need both him and Normann on the pitch at the same and if I'm brutally honest Normann did morefor 70 mins  than I've seen from Gilmour all season. Got an assist for the goal for starters.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

If we saying we didn't get them in early enough that's on Webber, but it's the same every season since Webber and Farke have been here, no matter how early in the window we get our business done we always waste the first 1/3 of a season.

He said that mistakes were done previously in them diving in to signings and that to get players on good deals, and they will have to be more patient in this window.  That's just where we find themselves.  Add Covid messing our pre-season, and so many players in tough competitive qualifiers during International break, it's been hard.

When you're then thrown in against Liverpool, Man City in the opening games - It was only the Leicester game that we could review where we are, or getting nearer.

But yes, of course these signings are on Webber - they may all turn out to be flops and we should've bought less of higher quality.  I dare not say what the better tact would've been.  

But there were plenty of supporters saying that there were no excuses and that these players were of enough quality at the start of the month.  And i can see them on here today changing their tune and just pulling down any excuses and pointing a finger as what the reason are.

But they won't accept that there's a need for time still, despite the facts I've listed above.  As i said you ever soil the sheets and give up, or you take it on the chin, roll with it and look forward to Everton.  I haven't a clue if we can turn it around, and I lack the belief too.

But I'm pushing myself to find the positives purely based on what Webber and Farke have delivered previously.  And there are many to be had still.

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10 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

Fair comment to an extent but we've lost every game so far and a humiliating home defeat against Watford yesterday. 

If they can't perform at this level or need a lot of time to adapt then it's not going to keep us up

In which case we go down, and we have to fight to return again.  Doesn't change the fact that they need time before we know for sure - It's not like we can all get together and arrange a refund with the selling clubs and request a bonus transfer window as we've changed our mind.

I don't know what people are expecting today, or what to do.  A few wins and this whole situation rapidly changes and we're all upbeat.

If it carries on, and we've allowed time for everyone to bed in - at that point we're more educated to give a valid opinion. 

After yesterday, I've very little belief left and I've never doubted Farke and his backroom this much before so it's foreign territory for me, but I'm not prepared to accept it as the final verdict at this point.

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3 hours ago, Samwam27 said:

I think it's a little harsh as Nornann & Kabak have only had 1 game. Each [player will get sharper and the team will "gel" per game as the new players get used to each other. 

We've got more new players than we've ever brought in under any other window.

In terms of "gelling" Rashica & Sargent play together as has Tzol & Giann , and the hope, as we've spent approx £8m per player there (& £6m on latter, which is not small fry for us) is we can get all of them in the team pretty sharpish and playing together.

Time isn't with us, but there's a long way to go. Just hope Farke is brave enough to get them in quick  

Yes. We should give them at least TWO games before casting the first stone...

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Find it amazing that some fans can slate players after one game although I do agree that we cannot afford a season long bedding in programme like Iwan had if we are to survive this season 

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3 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

So how do you feel about Kabak, Normann and Sargent?

I was very pleased with the Sargent transfer. Seen him a few times and always liked his style. Kabak was hard to tell playing in a Liverpool team who were always on the front foot. 
I can honestly say I had never heard of Normann and he was our best midfielder by a long shot yesterday.

 

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We had half a team of new players on the pitch yesterday compared to almost none 2 years ago.

Perhaps player churn would be better at one quarter of a team per season which will help the gelling and settling in process.

This is vital given there are only 38 matches in the Premier League and something the Club should be managing better.

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3 hours ago, Google Bot said:

It's not like we can all get together and arrange a refund with the selling clubs and request a bonus transfer window as we've changed our mind.

 

But we didn't all get together to buy them. I'm not asking for a refund. It's not working Is the point and you're detracting with a strange logic.

It wasn't my decision or the fans decision to buy these players. This has happened and it doesn't seem to be working.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

But we didn't all get together to buy them. I'm not asking for a refund. It's not working Is the point and you're detracting with a strange logic.

You said this:-

3 hours ago, Chelm Canary said:

If they can't perform at this level or need a lot of time to adapt then it's not going to keep us up

And my 'logic' is that we can't send them back, so we have to go with them and give them time.  It's quite straight forward logic and not at all detracting.

Unless you suggest something else?

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I believe we had 6 new players from last seasons squad starting against Watford. They had 5. You can say we had a few more making their debut  or had been signed earlier  but they looked much more together. They have signed a number of players who are used to this league and we have not. How long will it take them to get used to the league let alone each other is a worry. Sergant  was busy but I really do worry about his goal scoring record. We need to get the team playing as a team ASAP as playing catch up in the Premier league will be very difficult. 

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14 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

You said this:-

And my 'logic' is that we can't send them back, so we have to go with them and give them time.  It's quite straight forward logic and not at all detracting.

Unless you suggest something else?

I never said  anything about sending players back?  That was your suggestion and it was odd.  

Let's ignore that because it's a bit nonsensical and I don't get your point. 

I will ask this this. And I I'm not anti Farke. But it's a frank and honest question...

How many more straight loses would you take before you believe there needs to be a change in management? 

I think 3-4 more consecutive loses and there must be a change. 

Interested on your thoughts on that. 

Edited by Chelm Canary

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10 minutes ago, Chelm Canary said:

How many more straight loses would you take before you believe there needs to be a change in management? 

I think 3-4 more consecutive loses and there must be a change. 

Interesting in your thoughts on that. 

Me personally I think the system and the players are a mess - it's too big a job for him to stick to this ideal AND work on improving players AND picking up points AND turning the tide of such negative records that he's breaking.  I think it's beyond most managers due to the state we're in - On top of that he lacks the aggression to cut the mistakes out, and our coaching team seem to lack the defensive sense to get that right at this level too.

So in my head I'm 70-80% sure the whole coaching team are incapable of making this work and I'd be looking at improvement in the next 3 games and coming to a verdict then, so it's not allowed to stale any longer - I say that as it's a very fresh squad that someone could inherit at this point.  Even though i feel that we owe him loyalty, it just seems quite clear to me that it's out of his depth.

HOWEVER, if I was in charge for real I would give him more time as when making a business decision like that I'd need to make sure it's the right one and not go with emotions after the weekends result. 

There is a very valid excuse that players haven't had time to gel, Kabak and Normann have spent just over a week with the team for example, and Tzolis is being slowly introduced.  If i was the board I'd be thinking formal review in November to give him plenty of time and then taking action in December ahead of the window.

However, if we're too far gone by that point (i.e. 9 pts adrift), you almost have to stick with him due to his championship credentials.  

It's so bloody hard man, I really don't know.  But I'm not discounting that the players need time - they're just so inexperienced personally and as a team.  It's not really fair to fully judge until we can knock that away as an excuse.

Edited by Google Bot
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