Jump to content

Recommended Posts

6 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, I watched it, although I knew I shouldn't.  Was interested (why, I don't know) to hear what the pundits would say (even though I know they are a waste of space) and even with all that, I was still staggered at the moral ineptitude of Martin Keown's comments.  Wrote is off, dismissed us as a nothing team, not even a comment on the defence, or comments about new players, mistakes that players made etc......just a totally ignorant put down. 

Yes, I know, it's MOTD and what you'd expect and at the time I laughed and let it wash over me. But here's the thing - I woke up at 5.30 this morning and the first thing that came to my head were his words - and then I couldn't get them out of my head and I'm thinking - how is someone allowed to go on a flagship BBC football programme and offer nothing at all?  How morally bancrupt is it to write off a team in the way he did?  Was it just brutal truth - and if even so - is that really what MOTD is there for?  Is it wrong to think that someone who is there to comment on the game should actually do that, rather than just dismiss us in the way he did? 

Nil respect in my book and that was a new low for me. Even Shearer and Lineker are usually a bit more careful with what they say about us and other teams who are struggling - at least trying to offer something to give supporters of those clubs watching their programme a bit of hope or at least something of interest.  I know Keown is known for being like he is, but that was beyond the pale. 

We are down at the moment, but we are not out - and we will improve - but really, the BBC can and should do better.

 

Jenas was better though. He said Norwich weren’t out of the game, but the difference was the quality in attack. And I think he’s right. Put Sarr in our team and it’s a different story. The difference is in the boxes. So many fans are catastrophizing and calling it an abysmal performance but we were well in the game and if we can tighten up the details in the boxes we can turn things around. Some big adjectives being thrown around considering it’s only the 5th game of the season.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Yes, I watched it, although I knew I shouldn't.  Was interested (why, I don't know) to hear what the pundits would say (even though I know they are a waste of space) and even with all that, I was still staggered at the moral ineptitude of Martin Keown's comments.  Wrote is off, dismissed us as a nothing team, not even a comment on the defence, or comments about new players, mistakes that players made etc......just a totally ignorant put down. 

Yes, I know, it's MOTD and what you'd expect and at the time I laughed and let it wash over me. But here's the thing - I woke up at 5.30 this morning and the first thing that came to my head were his words - and then I couldn't get them out of my head and I'm thinking - how is someone allowed to go on a flagship BBC football programme and offer nothing at all?  How morally bancrupt is it to write off a team in the way he did?  Was it just brutal truth - and if even so - is that really what MOTD is there for?  Is it wrong to think that someone who is there to comment on the game should actually do that, rather than just dismiss us in the way he did? 

Nil respect in my book and that was a new low for me. Even Shearer and Lineker are usually a bit more careful with what they say about us and other teams who are struggling - at least trying to offer something to give supporters of those clubs watching their programme a bit of hope or at least something of interest.  I know Keown is known for being like he is, but that was beyond the pale. 

We are down at the moment, but we are not out - and we will improve - but really, the BBC can and should do better.

 

Really. I think you should have gone to bed and slept it all off.

Was Keon erong. I think not. He was spot on. What did Norwich offer. They were calamitous in defence for sure, and very negative in their creation from midfield! He isn’t writing Norwich off, they are doing that themselves!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He literally said he wasn't writing them off. It was a very fair assessment based on our performances thus far. 

I really don't understand the anger being directed at MOTD here. But then, I guess if you refuse to accept that the board, recruitment, manager or players are to blame then you have to direct your frustration somewhere. 

But let's be blunt, you are shooting the messenger. 

Edited by The Bunny

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, SplatCat said:

Put Sarr in our team and it’s a different story. The difference is in the boxes.

As a side note to this, Watford have kept their best player in Sarr while we’ve sold ours. He is the difference for a few reasons. Loves scoring against us too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, The Bunny said:

He literally said he wasn't writing them off. It was a very fair assessment based on our performances thus far. 

I really don't understand the anger being directed at MOTD here. But then, I guess if you refuse to accept that the board, recruitment, manager or players are to blame then you have to direct your frustration somewhere. 

But let's be blunt, you are shooting the messenger. 

He said "I don't want to write them off, but"..... -  the "but" was the important word......and he finished by saying "they don't look like premier league players" - so writing us off hook line and sinker.  The way he said it and if you analyse what he said, it was dismissive and insulting with NO understanding of the background to what we are doing and how we are trying to build. 

A better summing up would have been -  "they were very poor and need to sort out defensive issues" or "need to organise better in defence" or "need to work with the new players to get more understanding" or something that actually means something.  His summing up was just so lacking in understanding and plainly didn't see the match or bother to find out anything about us.

It is the kind of attitude I expect from some of our fans who just want to be negative about us regardless of any context - and bearing in mind he gets a lot of money for his so called expertise, to come out with what he did only pandered to a totally negative view of us, which is not what punditry is all about - it is about offering something useful to say - like Jenas did. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

He said "I don't want to write them off, but"..... -  the "but" was the important word......and he finished by saying "they don't look like premier league players" - so writing us off hook line and sinker.  The way he said it and if you analyse what he said, it was dismissive and insulting with NO understanding of the background to what we are doing and how we are trying to build. 

A better summing up would have been -  "they were very poor and need to sort out defensive issues" or "need to organise better in defence" or "need to work with the new players to get more understanding" or something that actually means something.  His summing up was just so lacking in understanding and plainly didn't see the match or bother to find out anything about us.

It is the kind of attitude I expect from some of our fans who just want to be negative about us regardless of any context - and bearing in mind he gets a lot of money for his so called expertise, to come out with what he did only pandered to a totally negative view of us, which is not what punditry is all about - it is about offering something useful to say - like Jenas did. 

 

 

Sensible Norwich fans are negative because we’re playing poorly and don’t look like getting a result at the moment. Your just in denial how bad Norwich have played so far this season and can’t hack it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Keown thought we were any good or had a chance of survival he'd have said so.

Clear case of somebody just saying it how it is, and somebody in denial (that's you) not being able to handle the truth.

Nothing to see here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, WD40 said:

As a side note to this, Watford have kept their best player in Sarr while we’ve sold ours. He is the difference for a few reasons. Loves scoring against us too. 

If we had kept Emi we wouldn’t have done the business we did in the window. In that case we would be an even stronger candidate for the drop as Emi alone would not keep us up especially as he would be a very discontented player having wanted to leave. Our club’s self-sustaining policy means we will always have to sell our better players and that’s why it isn’t compatible with competing in the PL.

Edited by Crafty Canary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Sensible Norwich fans are negative because we’re playing poorly and don’t look like getting a result at the moment. Your just in denial how bad Norwich have played so far this season and can’t hack it. 

Rubbish, I know as well as anyone what problems we're having.  Difference is that I can at least see that things will improve as the new players get used to being here and we become a stronger team. Others of you just want to think that because we have been poor so far that we will remain being poor. Whatever floats your boat, but don't tell me I don't know how poor we have been.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

I suspect that Keown knows more about what it takes to compete in the PL than LDC and others on this forum.

If he knows so much more - as he should - he should at least be able to come up with something of interest if he is being paid by the BBC. Stating the bl**ding obvious in disparaging terms is not punditry it is just lazy throw away one liners. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

He said "I don't want to write them off, but"..... -  the "but" was the important word......and he finished by saying "they don't look like premier league players" - so writing us off hook line and sinker.  The way he said it and if you analyse what he said, it was dismissive and insulting with NO understanding of the background to what we are doing and how we are trying to build. 

A better summing up would have been -  "they were very poor and need to sort out defensive issues" or "need to organise better in defence" or "need to work with the new players to get more understanding" or something that actually means something.  His summing up was just so lacking in understanding and plainly didn't see the match or bother to find out anything about us.

It is the kind of attitude I expect from some of our fans who just want to be negative about us regardless of any context - and bearing in mind he gets a lot of money for his so called expertise, to come out with what he did only pandered to a totally negative view of us, which is not what punditry is all about - it is about offering something useful to say - like Jenas did. 

 

 

But…. They don’t look like premier league players. Yesterday emphasised that point startlingly.

They looked weaker, slower, less technical, less physical and like a group of Championship players trying to punch above their weight! 
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Hardhouse44 said:

But…. They don’t look like premier league players. Yesterday emphasised that point startlingly.

They looked weaker, slower, less technical, less physical and like a group of Championship players trying to punch above their weight! 
 

Collectively they did look weak - but the reasons why are not hard to understand, which is why I expect better of the BBC and Keown in particular (and some of our fans for that matter).  Two new players in the heart of the team that barely know the rest of the players - now they could have picked on that and said should Farke have introduced both of them in the same match - at least it would have shown some research was done.

It was a new world - virtually a new team - trying to learn about each other in the most pressurised and difficult of circumstances. The easy answer is just to say we are useless but there reasons for why we are are poor - and the lazy punditry shown by Keown was mind bogglingly inept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

He said "I don't want to write them off, but"..... -  the "but" was the important word......and he finished by saying "they don't look like premier league players" - so writing us off hook line and sinker.  The way he said it and if you analyse what he said, it was dismissive and insulting with NO understanding of the background to what we are doing and how we are trying to build. 

A better summing up would have been -  "they were very poor and need to sort out defensive issues" or "need to organise better in defence" or "need to work with the new players to get more understanding" or something that actually means something.  His summing up was just so lacking in understanding and plainly didn't see the match or bother to find out anything about us.

It is the kind of attitude I expect from some of our fans who just want to be negative about us regardless of any context - and bearing in mind he gets a lot of money for his so called expertise, to come out with what he did only pandered to a totally negative view of us, which is not what punditry is all about - it is about offering something useful to say - like Jenas did. 

 

 

I don’t want to right them off, but…..
And exactly how many looked like premiership players?

if you are struggling with an answer LDC, your summing up is a joke. It’s your understanding that is seriously lacking. NCFC have looked very poor over all 5 games and certainly don’t look anything like a premiership side with a premiership manager or premiership players. Why try to gloss over what is staring you in the face, Keown said it exactly as it is!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Playing out of back with Hanley is a waste of time as he does not have the ability to do anything but continually play sideways passes

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just seen the MOTD coverage of our game and the pundits comments and to be fair the whole thing sounded spot on. I really cant see anything to complain about. Keown's comments were fair based on what we witnessed yesterday. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

If he knows so much more - as he should - he should at least be able to come up with something of interest if he is being paid by the BBC. Stating the bl**ding obvious in disparaging terms is not punditry it is just lazy throw away one liners. 

I generally am a half glass full person and often agree with your stance on various aspects. However, consider this.

Keown whether you like him or not was a limited defender and as such would have had to play literally out of his skin every game to make up the short fall in talent to stay in that team. As a result he became an absolute bas74rd on the pitch, worked on his strengths and was part of an extremely successful club.

What does he see with us?

We came up last time, understandably spent only a modest amount before the season and were taught lesson after lesson for most of the campaign (despite our injuries which I acknowledge do not get taken into consideration by pundits) especially after the restart when we actually had a slim chance.

Keown and his ilk now see us again faffing about in the PL and failing in nearly every game to impose ourselves, give it a go, be street wise, take a chance or as he would have done in his day, let the opposition know in no uncertainty they are in a game.   

His comments were far less harsh than they could have been in my opinion, considering the chance we had yesterday. 

We need to be nastier in the right areas on the pitch, change it up and be far more direct when needed for a short period of time during the game and ruthless in team selection. We may change it around but it needs a kick start and that can only be done by a change in mindset and tactics.

I think we have a talented team but am worried teams are going to try an steam roller us as we are seen as a soft touch. I'm off to Goodison and last time I went we scraped a last minute equaliser (Bassong). 

I'd take that right now.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Garth Crooks has had his say again:

"Ismaila Sarr: The movement and anticipation for both his goals was quite outstanding. At 23, Ismaila Sarr has a lot to offer and has a similar game to his Senegal team-mate Sadio Mane. Sarr's performance came against a Norwich side who I said were doomed even after their first game of the season against Liverpool and they have shown no signs of recovery.

Norwich have lost their first five matches under Daniel Farke and a further 10 when they were previously in the Premier League. No-one has lost 15 Premier League fixtures under the same manager, so what makes Farke so special? He's been relegated but has brought them back and now has no points on the board and still has a job? Is that because he is not the real boss?"

A lot of people were upset at the start of the season when he wrote us off but again, he hasn't said anything that isn't right - we are doomed. Well, apart from that "real boss" bit, not sure what he's getting at there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Collectively they did look weak - but the reasons why are not hard to understand, which is why I expect better of the BBC and Keown in particular (and some of our fans for that matter).  Two new players in the heart of the team that barely know the rest of the players - now they could have picked on that and said should Farke have introduced both of them in the same match - at least it would have shown some research was done.

It was a new world - virtually a new team - trying to learn about each other in the most pressurised and difficult of circumstances. The easy answer is just to say we are useless but there reasons for why we are are poor - and the lazy punditry shown by Keown was mind bogglingly inept.

On that research you are on about, he would have had to say that we had 6 new players from last season playing today. Watford had 5. One of their players was signed after ours but is already bedded into their team. The difference is we have signed players who are either very young, have no Premier league experience, no top level European league experience or a combination of the above. Watford signed players for the here and now. Players with lots of Premier league experience. They might not be for the long term but they are ready now. Even if our signings come good after a while we will have a big game of catch up to play. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, alex_ncfc said:

Garth Crooks has had his say again:

"Ismaila Sarr: The movement and anticipation for both his goals was quite outstanding. At 23, Ismaila Sarr has a lot to offer and has a similar game to his Senegal team-mate Sadio Mane. Sarr's performance came against a Norwich side who I said were doomed even after their first game of the season against Liverpool and they have shown no signs of recovery.

Norwich have lost their first five matches under Daniel Farke and a further 10 when they were previously in the Premier League. No-one has lost 15 Premier League fixtures under the same manager, so what makes Farke so special? He's been relegated but has brought them back and now has no points on the board and still has a job? Is that because he is not the real boss?"

A lot of people were upset at the start of the season when he wrote us off but again, he hasn't said anything that isn't right - we are doomed. Well, apart from that "real boss" bit, not sure what he's getting at there.

There’s only one boss at CR, and that isn’t Delia Smith or her cohort. Step up Mr Webber, who hires, fires (to suite the “project”) runs the scouting system (to suite the “project”) deals with contracts (to suit the “project”) and runs the club to his employers whims in the hope dear (penniless)  Andy will have something to take over aka “the project”. 
However, after the last debacle in the EPL under “the project” which didn’t work, and isn’t working now, they ALL seem to have learnt absolutely nothing including the ‘coach’.

old  adage ‘you cannot make a silk purse from a pigs ear’, springs to mind!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 19/09/2021 at 23:38, alex_ncfc said:

Garth Crooks has had his say again:

"Ismaila Sarr: The movement and anticipation for both his goals was quite outstanding. At 23, Ismaila Sarr has a lot to offer and has a similar game to his Senegal team-mate Sadio Mane. Sarr's performance came against a Norwich side who I said were doomed even after their first game of the season against Liverpool and they have shown no signs of recovery.

Norwich have lost their first five matches under Daniel Farke and a further 10 when they were previously in the Premier League. No-one has lost 15 Premier League fixtures under the same manager, so what makes Farke so special? He's been relegated but has brought them back and now has no points on the board and still has a job? Is that because he is not the real boss?"

A lot of people were upset at the start of the season when he wrote us off but again, he hasn't said anything that isn't right - we are doomed. Well, apart from that "real boss" bit, not sure what he's getting at there.

 

I’ve been to a few football roadshows when Garth has topped the bill. He doesn’t mince his words and waffle unlike some. 

Edited by Midlands Yellow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Canaries north said:

On that research you are on about, he would have had to say that we had 6 new players from last season playing today. Watford had 5. One of their players was signed after ours but is already bedded into their team. The difference is we have signed players who are either very young, have no Premier league experience, no top level European league experience or a combination of the above. Watford signed players for the here and now. Players with lots of Premier league experience. They might not be for the long term but they are ready now. Even if our signings come good after a while we will have a big game of catch up to play. 

Good post. Shame Keown couldn't have done a bit of similar research or had a bit of knowledge about the situation too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

Which is interesting because we were markedly better than them last year and they've only made a few additions to their squad.

They're playing 5-3-2, keeping it tight at the back and letting Toney and Mbeumo cause havoc.

Farke and the players need to do everything they can to keep a clean sheet; they have to show some fight win the ball. We haven't seen much of it yet this season.

Yes, you were much better than us over last season. A little lucky to get a draw away at BCS but comfortable at home and had that relentless consistency at Championship level that titles are made of. Maybe that’s the problem- being too good at the things needed there to find the Championship a serious challenge but not playing at the level and with the style needed in the PL. 

Losing Buendia is a huge miss and it’ll take a while for his replacement to hit comparable levels. Particularly in the context of starting on the back foot after a really tough opening run of opponents and feeling under pressure to get results rather than performances. Losing loan players like Skipp also hurts- I’m never keen on relying on loanees for that reason, good ones elevate the team artificially while making themselves impossibly expensive to buy.

Against Wolves Brentford started 10 players from last season plus Ajer, who elsewhere on here it sounds like Norwich didn’t rate highly enough to go up to £13.5m for. That’s not megabucks for a team that’s had years of PL money and parachute payments (though our biggest fee paid ever). He’s been excellent.

 I was shocked at the brutality of Keown’s comment almost as much as Pearce’s comment that we looked like we’d been in the PL forever. The big change we’ve made is turning from a soft touch defensively to celebrating defensive play like Chiellini for Italy. Toney’s near the top of the charts for defensive play.  It’s taken the heartache of losing the play off final last year and the realisation that you need to be tough before you earn the right to ping it about. I don’t know whether it is in Farke or your squad’s mentality to make that adjustment. It could be- Arteta has the same issue and seems to have knuckled down to the grind to earn that right with a humility hard to drive through a club that still believes itself above that sort of thing.

Good luck- I want clubs like ours with continuity and patience to have a chance. Otherwise what’s the point and why not just let billionaires move the whole thing to a franchise model and be done with it?

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, aBee said:

The big change we’ve made is turning from a soft touch defensively to celebrating defensive play like Chiellini for Italy. Toney’s near the top of the charts for defensive play.  It’s taken the heartache of losing the play off final last year and the realisation that you need to be tough before you earn the right to ping it about. I don’t know whether it is in Farke or your squad’s mentality to make that adjustment. It could be- Arteta has the same issue and seems to have knuckled down to the grind to earn that right with a humility hard to drive through a club that still believes itself above that sort of thing.

Good post aBee.  We were better defensively last season  and that was partly because Buendia was excellent at tracking back and the new players are taking a while to adjust to that.  In hindsight it was probably not a good idea for us to have played two new players at the heart of the team yesterday - both of them were a bit at fault at times and hanley and Kabak clearly need time to learn each other's game. 

I would prefer us to be more compact and look a bit more defensive as we look stretched far too often, with three or even four players upfield at times when we should have eight back behind the ball. The new players clearly want to play football, but as you said, the defensive play has to be more positive and an aim in itself and then the front players can try and express themselves more when the oppodrtunity arises.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, aBee said:

Against Wolves Brentford started 10 players from last season plus Ajer, who elsewhere on here it sounds like Norwich didn’t rate highly enough to go up to £13.5m for. That’s not megabucks for a team that’s had years of PL money and parachute payments (though our biggest fee paid ever). He’s been excellent.

We were similarly loyal to our squad two years ago, but it failed miserably (despite the 'best team to ever get relegated' plaudits).

This season we've signed 11 players, yet the same problems persist... it seems like we're too loyal to the system/style of play, as you mentioned.

16 minutes ago, aBee said:

I don’t know whether it is in Farke or your squad’s mentality to make that adjustment. It could be- Arteta has the same issue and seems to have knuckled down to the grind to earn that right with a humility hard to drive through a club that still believes itself above that sort of thing.

As stated above, we've signed a whole (potential) starting eleven but the same problems persist. So it's Farke's system. It's a system that has served us gloriously in the Championship but they must realise it needs changing. Hopefully it will just be subtle adjustments because, let's be honest, we don't want Burnley or Stoke's style of play. 

You guys seem to have found a decent balance, so fair play to TF and the team. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Good post aBee.  We were better defensively last season  and that was partly because Buendia was excellent at tracking back and the new players are taking a while to adjust to that.  In hindsight it was probably not a good idea for us to have played two new players at the heart of the team yesterday - both of them were a bit at fault at times and hanley and Kabak clearly need time to learn each other's game. 

I would prefer us to be more compact and look a bit more defensive as we look stretched far too often, with three or even four players upfield at times when we should have eight back behind the ball. The new players clearly want to play football, but as you said, the defensive play has to be more positive and an aim in itself and then the front players can try and express themselves more when the oppodrtunity arises.

I’m wary of overstepping the mark as a visiting fan but maybe the problem was keeping Buendia last season. Obviously he’s far too good for the Championship and was a huge part of your team both in attacking and his desire to defend from the front and win the ball back. Keeping him but knowing he’d be sold the following summer stored up a problem in replacing him, whereas maybe it would have been easier to adjust and replace in the Championship where the rest of your team was still well above most in quality. You might not have won the league but should have had enough to go up and now would be playing with a more settled team. 
 

We had a similar thing forced on us as Benrahma had been persuaded to stay an extra season in 19/20 but was always going to be sold last summer. Had we gone up in 2020 we might have pulled out the stops to keep him and Watkins (though Watkins wanted to stay) but looking back at that team I suspect we might have been a bit lightweight in midfield for the PL once Da Silva got injured and we might not have bought Janelt or expected him to slot straight in at CDM as well as he did in the Championship when Norgaard got injured. So instead last season we had a chance to rethink things and build a squad to keep confidence in that they might step up and also not agitate to move/receive unrejectable offers for. We were also fortunate ( !) in Henry’s injury forcing us to learn how to play with 3CBs rather than the back 4 we’d largely favoured for 5-6 years. 
 

I think Keown might be over-gloomy but the test and way to prove him wrong involves some major rethinking to address the demands of the PL. Almost no clubs can do well just by being relentless in attack but soft defensively. Last season Liverpool saw this when they lost much of their central defence. It’s what’ll probably stop Man U winning the title. So defending and retaining the ability to counter and take limited chances is the common key if you don’t have Ronaldo, don’t drive your players into the ground like Bielsa, and don’t bully your way into scoring just enough set piece goals like Burnley. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, aBee said:

I’m wary of overstepping the mark as a visiting fan but maybe the problem was keeping Buendia last season.

This is a really good point, but I am unsure what we could have done about it. There was no interest, or at least no serious interest at the price we wanted, and he really needed a good season to be sellable. The same goes for Max and Cantwell. If the approach the club needs to survive is to be stronger and faster it might have been better if we had shipped them out. But then you are talking about totally restructuring the football strategy and I am sure that those complaining now would be complaining then about lack of ambition.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...