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TeemuVanBasten

Is there a loss of support for the project?

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I have been well and truly behind the direction of the club, until tonight, and this is firmly the first time I have decided that I think it's failing. Genuinely heartbroken at watching this today. We are a hollow shell of a team required at this level, and it hurts. Facts are facts and we are hopeless. That is something that cant be argued with 

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1 hour ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I haven't lost any faith in the project. This is the project that has taken us from mid-table obscurity in the Championship to being a yo-yo club in little more than four years, so it's actually doing its job in the sense that we've developed the club massively. Progress isn't linear, and even if we do go down we'll still be far stronger than we were five years ago and have a great chance of going straight back up (hopefully stronger) if we don't panic and try to rip up the blueprint. 

No club will ever develop consistently in a straight line without setbacks here and there, and we seem to be taking several steps forward at a time then a couple back, before a few forward again. 

If you look at the four-and-a-bit years of the project as a whole, it's actually working extremely well. You just need to have faith that whilst things aren't going well and the backward steps are being taken, it is still generally moving in the right direction and there will be larger strides forward in the future.

I completely agree.

I've said before on another thread. I know that everyone is desperate for us to go up and stay up, but the fairest yardstick to measure the management of this club by is to ask whether they've improved the squad each year. If they've done that, then they are taking the club in a positive direction, even if we still aren't good enough to survive this year.

Subjectively I don't have any doubt personally that the squad has improved every single year.

Objectively, TransferMarket demonstrates clearly that we have the most valuable squad (worth c. £180m) that we've ever had.

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8 minutes ago, JB said:

I have been well and truly behind the direction of the club, until tonight, and this is firmly the first time I have decided that I think it's failing. Genuinely heartbroken at watching this today. We are a hollow shell of a team required at this level, and it hurts. Facts are facts and we are hopeless. That is something that cant be argued with 

It isn't failing. We are improving year on year.

We just aren't good enough to stay in the PL yet.

But there's 33 games over 8 more months for that to change. I'm not convinced that it will, but that doesn't detract from the overall positive direction of progress.

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3 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

 

Objectively, TransferMarket demonstrates clearly that we have the most valuable squad (worth c. £180m) that we've ever had.

That's a nonsense though, it doesn't take into consideration inflation etc. Our early 90s sides would **** that in today's market. What's Huckerby et al worth in today's money. 

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I have been saying for years a stinking rich Chinese owner is a far superior project to the current one.

it has been clear for some time that the current approach has zero percent chance of success 

time for Delia to sell up

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1 minute ago, Uncle Fred said:

I have been saying for years a stinking rich Chinese owner is a far superior project to the current one.

it has been clear for some time that the current approach has zero percent chance of success 

time for Delia to sell up

Make her your offer then.

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9 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

It isn't failing. We are improving year on year.

We just aren't good enough to stay in the PL yet.

But there's 33 games over 8 more months for that to change. I'm not convinced that it will, but that doesn't detract from the overall positive direction of progress.

This^^^ I know I fall out with people over their booing and negativity, but really, there is always a chance, especially this early in the season, to improve.  Maybe it's hard for some people to stay positive, but there really is time to improve and start getting results.

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8 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

That's a nonsense though, it doesn't take into consideration inflation etc. Our early 90s sides would **** that in today's market. What's Huckerby et al worth in today's money. 

It would be pure speculation to try to value the early 90's side by today's standards so I won't bother to try.

What we can say is that the value and quality of our playing squad has increased dramatically over the last 5 years that the current management have been in charge.

 

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5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

This^^^ I know I fall out with people over their booing and negativity, but really, there is always a chance, especially this early in the season, to improve.  Maybe it's hard for some people to stay positive, but there really is time to improve and start getting results.

The trouble, LDC, is that everyone wants to stay up THIS season. They want to beat Watford TODAY. There is no patience for a more longer term gradual improvement. Which over the last 5 years we can confidently say is what is happening.

For those calling for rich Chinese investors etc and the ejection of the 'Stowmarket Two', that is particularly galling to take when you consider what has happened to Derby County in the last 24 hours.

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I have generally been very pro project, I like Webber, I like Farke, I'm happy with Delia's ownership in general (not that I think it's perfect, but I see more failures in clubs run by the classic money  bags than I see successes.)

This was poor though, and I'm probably more sympathetic to those who are losing patience than I have ever been before. I don't think we can keep bouncing up and down forever, as I think that it looks more likely we will miss a promotion than stay up at the moment.

We cannot keep making basic errors, game after game at this level, at some point, something has to give.

Edited by 1902

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6 minutes ago, Uncle Fred said:

I am neither Chinese or stinking rich 

Neither is anyone else who wants to buy our club.

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28 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

It isn't failing. We are improving year on year.

We just aren't good enough to stay in the PL yet.

But there's 33 games over 8 more months for that to change. I'm not convinced that it will, but that doesn't detract from the overall positive direction of progress.

Yeah, really good post. Can't really blame people on here for being reactionary though after the result and performance today.

Like you say, overall we are most certainly heading in the right direction still.

I do think expectation has been raised unreasonably with the signings. I said they look decent acquisitions at the time but we have no idea how good they'll actually be at prem level and it certainly shouldn't mean Farke should be expected to comfortably keep us up. I would have expected us to be on anywhere between 2 and 4 points right now at best so we arent miles away from a realistically decent position based on fixtures. An unexpected (very) against Everton and suddenly we arent far off track.

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

Yeah, really good post. Can't really blame people on here for being reactionary though after the result and performance today.

Like you say, overall we are most certainly heading in the right direction still.

I do think expectation has been raised unreasonably with the signings. I said they look decent acquisitions at the time but we have no idea how good they'll actually be at prem level and it certainly shouldn't mean Farke should be expected to comfortably keep us up. I would have expected us to be on anywhere between 2 and 4 points right now at best so we arent miles away from a realistically decent position based on fixtures. An unexpected (very) against Everton and suddenly we arent far off track.

Yeah I agree with all of that. I definitely think expectations have raised a little too quickly. Some of the booing in the Barclay toward Farke at the end of the game is so incredibly disappointing. Is there no loyalty anymore?

I've just watched all of the goals carefully and I don't really even think you can blame Farke for the tactical setup in relation to any.

The first goal Rashica fails to close down a cross and Kabak is stationary letting Dennis get the run on him.

The second, Normann just doesn't track the channel run and then Sarr gets across Hanley.

The third, McLean shanks a clearance horribly and there's a marginal offside and a shot saved which breaks kindly. 

Individual mistakes for me over and above a tactical issue in relation to the goals today. 

 

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4 hours ago, hogesar said:

Was going to say,  the project has enabled us to spend the most in one window in our entire history,  completely redevelop our training complex and create solid foundations for developing young players moving forwards.

The fact we've had a crap start to the season doesn't detract from any of that for me.

And sold our talisman... Watford? Theirs scored twice yesterday.

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2 minutes ago, Kenny Foggo said:

And sold our talisman... Watford? Theirs scored twice yesterday.

We don't have rich owners. They are good people that care and want the club run in a financially sustainable way. It causes us problems in some respects but it has also forced us to invest in our academy which has been a huge positive. Coming from an amateur club background, personally their approach is something I'm extremely proud of. 

They aren't the worst owners in the world though, are they? If we hound them out, I'm sure Derby County would take them.

Maybe you can start a protest in front of the City Stand next home game. You might be a little lonely though. 

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21 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

Yeah I agree with all of that. I definitely think expectations have raised a little too quickly. Some of the booing in the Barclay toward Farke at the end of the game is so incredibly disappointing. Is there no loyalty anymore?

To be fair I asked the above questions (about both loyalty and expectations) when Giannolous was hauled off at half time, publicly slagged off to the media and then dropped after half a poor game against possibly the best team in the world.

That felt rash and unfair, considering how good he looked against Liverpool and how he was left exposed by team mates at times in that game.  

I actually wondered whether Farke was losing the plot at that point, after the second game. I still think the Greek is a much better player than Williams, I'm still miffed. 

 

 

21 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Beefy is a legend said:

We don't have rich owners. They are good people that care and want the club run in a financially sustainable way. It causes us problems in some respects but it has also forced us to invest in our academy which has been a huge positive. Coming from an amateur club background, personally their approach is something I'm extremely proud of. 

They aren't the worst owners in the world though, are they? If we hound them out, I'm sure Derby County would take them.

Maybe you can start a protest in front of the City Stand next home game. You might be a little lonely though. 

Watfords net spend is very low over past 10 years, they weren't bankrolled. 

And Delia is worth ten times the amount the Brentford owner is worth (he's only worth a few million). 

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2 minutes ago, non-scoring strikers said:

What 'project'? 

Isn't the idea of any sport to be in the top league and be competitive in that league? 

If that is our project we're not doing it right. 

You compete as best you can with the resources you have available. 

To be honest there are probably at least 25 clubs in the UK with more resources than us - there are many owners bankrolling clubs even outside the top flight whereas we self-fund.

Being in the top flight is a decent effort for NCFC. Our task is to be competitive at this level. That will be difficult for us but not impossible. And there's a long way to go this season. 

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5 hours ago, Beefy is a legend said:

It isn't failing. We are improving year on year.

We just aren't good enough to stay in the PL yet.

The evidence suggests otherwise (both in terms of performances and results). We’re looking on course to beat Derby’s record haul at this point.

And it’s not all that surprising. We sold our best player, our second best player was recalled and we brought in unproven gambles on the cheap.  

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3 hours ago, The Bunny said:

The evidence suggests otherwise (both in terms of performances and results). We’re looking on course to beat Derby’s record haul at this point.

And it’s not all that surprising. We sold our best player, our second best player was recalled and we brought in unproven gambles on the cheap.  

Five games in and I'm already tired of this revisionistic claptrap. A few weeks ago everyone was happy with our signings. Yes, we were all gutted about seeing Emi going, but he wanted to leave and his sale funded a large chunk of a new team. We got the types of players everyone was calling for and I didn't see anyone complaining. Even DCB, the most misery laden horses **** of the lot, wrote a well done note.

Now it is unproven cheap gambles. Get lost.

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11 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I can't help but feel that we're a bit of a confused and conflicted fan base at the minute.

But I thought people were always clear that the project involved us investing heavily in youth development and associated facilities, bringing through players and then selling them to ensure the club is self-funded. 

Most of you were on board with that?

The problem is, that isn't compatible with also being a well drilled route one side like Burnley is it. You don't sell a Ben Godfrey for £25m by telling him to hit long balls to big target men, bypassing the midfield in the process. You have to produce players who can play.

So we could play the Dyche (or Hodgson at Palace) way, but that doesn't enable a conveyor belt of footballing talent does it?

Is it Farke who needs to be called into question? He's expected to bring through young players who can play football. Is it actually the project which needs to be questioned? 

I don't see how this 'project' is compatible with the football needed to stay up. 

Is it a key part of the project that you defend abysmally? I would have thought it’s the opposite. The “project” (which is really just emperors new clothes to enable our owners to keep their play thing) really requires excellence at every level of the club and marginal gains wherever we can make them. 

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11 hours ago, Dean Coneys boots said:

You saw the limitations this window. Instead of signing what we needed to be competitive this season- we signed young talent to sell on the season after next. It has left us lightweight again. 
 

we didn’t go the extra mile for Ajer - and we sold our best player to fund the window. The opposite of what Brentford did and look at them 

Spot on. 

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9 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

I said:

"But I thought people were always clear that the project involved us investing heavily in youth development and associated facilities, bringing through players and then selling them to ensure the club is self-funded"

Now you are comparing us with a club who spends £0 on players under 18. They have no academy. Very strange comparison. 

So this means that you don't believe in our model/project? You think we shouldn't have invested in academy infrastructure, and should adopt the B team model of Brentford?

That's fair enough, but please make sure your arguments make sense, you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Brentford have a completely unique model in British football. 

You also said it was a binary option between our model and well-drilled, route one football like Burnley or Palace. Very strange.

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1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

You also said it was a binary option between our model and well-drilled, route one football like Burnley or Palace. Very strange.

I didn't.

I said that we have to get the ball down and play if we're to produce players to flog for £25m-£35m to continue to fund the model.

You don't develop a James Maddison or an Emi Buendia if you bypass the midfield. 

Keep up. 

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The project doesn't work in the billionaire club play house that is the Premier League. It just doesn't work. We're proving it.

Edited by Michael Starr

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3 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

The project doesn't work in the billionaire club play house that is the Premier League. It just doesn't work. We're proving it.

It got us here in the first place didn't it and it helped fund a whole new team, so to say it doesn't work after 5 games is absolute nonsense.

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