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Booing is and always will be tin-pot

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11 minutes ago, Badger said:

As promised a summary:

1. People who boo are not being "supportive;" they are not "supporting" and not behaving like "supporters." I can't help what the word means - supporters support: it is not an opinion, it is fact.

2. Ricardo cited an extreme example which I accepted as an exception in very limited circumstances, aware as I stated at the time that others would falsely use this as justification.

3. Booing does not have a higher moral purpose: it is not helpful, it is damaging. Posters have suggested that it will get the players or manager to "buck up their ideas" - I think this is nonsense. I don't think Farke or the players think, "I'd better try next time, or I might get booed" - I think the argument is silly.

4. On the contrary, I think booing is damaging: it damages player confidence, particularly worrying for a team like us that has so many young players. I can recall even Steven Gerrard saying it affected Liverpool players when Roy Hodgson was being booed by Liverpool customers.

5. The booing on Saturday was at times aggressive and intimidating: not by all, but by enough to make it unpleasant. There were several heated arguments, people having to be "held back" and what looked like threatening behaviour - I'm sure you know the sort of male rutting stuff. As my wife said "Why do men behave like that?" (Particularly in relation to a man who got a mouthful for reminding someone that there were children there.) I don't think that this is acceptable but have been accused of "pearl clutching" for this because football is emotional and that perhaps I would be better off at the theatre. Is that what we want football to become (again)?

6. In conclusion, I can't think of a single good thing that came out of Saturday's booing and can think of several bad things. I do not think the people who booed were anymore more disappointed than those who didn't, they just responded in a way that I think is damaging rather than helpful.

I sorry if this offends anybody, but I can't for the life of me, see what's objectionable about it.

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

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2 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

1. You won't "tolerate it" - what are you going to do then, Jim? You have already booed, what is the next step? A boycott/ a march/ flying a banner over the ground?

2. "...therefore need to act "How do you want them to act - sack the manager/ Webber. What is on your agenda for action?

3. "Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure." I don't want to put words in your mouth Jim, but you do seem to be putting the blame on fans here and suggesting that those who didn't boo are letting us down? 

4. ..."too tolerant of failure"- I know that we are not yet an established Premier League side, but I for one haven't given up on this year!

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5 minutes ago, Badger said:

As promised a summary:

1. People who boo are not being "supportive;" they are not "supporting" and not behaving like "supporters." I can't help what the word means - supporters support: it is not an opinion, it is fact.

2. Ricardo cited an extreme example which I accepted as an exception in very limited circumstances, aware as I stated at the time that others would falsely use this as justification.

3. Booing does not have a higher moral purpose: it is not helpful, it is damaging. Posters have suggested that it will get the players or manager to "buck up their ideas" - I think this is nonsense. I don't think Farke or the players think, "I'd better try next time, or I might get booed" - I think the argument is silly.

4. On the contrary, I think booing is damaging: it damages player confidence, particularly worrying for a team like us that has so many young players. I can recall even Steven Gerrard saying it affected Liverpool players when Roy Hodgson was being booed by Liverpool customers.

5. The booing on Saturday was at times aggressive and intimidating: not by all, but by enough to make it unpleasant. There were several heated arguments, people having to be "held back" and what looked like threatening behaviour - I'm sure you know the sort of male rutting stuff. As my wife said "Why do men behave like that?" (Particularly in relation to a man who got a mouthful for reminding someone that there were children there.) I don't think that this is acceptable but have been accused of "pearl clutching" for this because football is emotional and that perhaps I would be better off at the theatre. Is that what we want football to become (again)?

6. In conclusion, I can't think of a single good thing that came out of Saturday's booing and can think of several bad things. I do not think the people who booed were anymore more disappointed than those who didn't, they just responded in a way that I think is damaging rather than helpful.

I sorry if this offends anybody, but I can't for the life of me, see what's objectionable about it.

Not read past the first page as I can guess the rest but all this looks spot on, Badger 👍

I think another reason why you might get some near or actual violence in such situations is because when people play the panto customer then some of those that are passionately trying to help the team they love through a rough spot, will take serious umbrage and offence at other folk ‘speaking’ for them. Booing is so divisive, I think those that were clapping in the Snakepit were doing so not because they were happy with the result (that should be pretty obvious really) but were in turn wanting to counteract the negative effect of booing, and show that they are the kind of supporters that want to play they part in helping the manager and team of largely young and inexperienced players plus some brand new faces through this rough patch together as one. Good on them I say, I like that kind of spirit, strength and loyalty 👍

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15 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

That doesn’t make any sense at all. You’re in two camps there - one that is booing because they want Farke to ‘sort it out quickly’ whilst at the same time being in the other camp ‘that the board needs to act’.

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7 minutes ago, Badger said:

1. You won't "tolerate it" - what are you going to do then, Jim? You have already booed, what is the next step? A boycott/ a march/ flying a banner over the ground?

2. "...therefore need to act "How do you want them to act - sack the manager/ Webber. What is on your agenda for action?

3. "Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure." I don't want to put words in your mouth Jim, but you do seem to be putting the blame on fans here and suggesting that those who didn't boo are letting us down? 

4. ..."too tolerant of failure"- I know that we are not yet an established Premier League side, but I for one haven't given up on this year!

If he does not turn it around in the next 3/4 games and start to sort the defence out then yes I think he needs to be sacked. We need to try and stay up this season. 

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2 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

That doesn’t make any sense at all. You’re in two camps there - one that is booing because they want Farke to ‘sort it out quickly’ whilst at the same time being in the other camp ‘that the board needs to act’.

It’s both isn’t it. 

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8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

That is just virtue signaling Jim, pure and simple virtue signaling. There is no marker being put down because everyone knows those booing fans will do **** all about it. You talk of "the board" as if we are living in the 80s, which I suspect many supporters are but in reality we know Webber runs the football side of the club. Are you really suggesting that he is unaware of the situation and possible remedies?

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8 minutes ago, BigFish said:

That is just virtue signaling Jim, pure and simple virtue signaling. There is no marker being put down because everyone knows those booing fans will do **** all about it. You talk of "the board" as if we are living in the 80s, which I suspect many supporters are but in reality we know Webber runs the football side of the club. Are you really suggesting that he is unaware of the situation and possible remedies?

I'm quite sure that if put under no pressure then they would not sack Farke. I hope sacking Farke is not necessary. i like the guy. I think he's a coach with good qualities (although coaching defending does not appear to be one of them). i hope he can find the balance in the next couple of games to be a bit more pragmatic and give the defence some extra protection and I actually think the next three are games we can get some points from if we can actually defend properly.

That said, Burnley have not won at home for 15 games so that could be a classic "along came Norwich........."

But if after 8/9 games we have no wins and are still letting in soft goals because of basic defensive issues then I think we need to change it if we are to have any chance of staying in this division and I don't think Webber and the board would make that decision unless put under heavy pressure from the fans. History tells us this.

 

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Despite VAR doing it' best to make it otherwise, football is all about spontaneity and so booing is a spur of the moment thing.

 

No one goes to a game planning to do it but when overwhelmed with disappointment after 90 minutes of surrenderism such things happen.

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8 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I'm quite sure that if put under no pressure then they would not sack Farke. I hope sacking Farke is not necessary. i like the guy. I think he's a coach with good qualities (although coaching defending does not appear to be one of them). i hope he can find the balance in the next couple of games to be a bit more pragmatic and give the defence some extra protection and I actually think the next three are games we can get some points from if we can actually defend properly.

That said, Burnley have not won at home for 15 games so that could be a classic "along came Norwich........."

But if after 8/9 games we have no wins and are still letting in soft goals because of basic defensive issues then I think we need to change it if we are to have any chance of staying in this division and I don't think Webber and the board would make that decision unless put under heavy pressure from the fans. History tells us this.

 

Results cause their own pressure. I think @Badger's point was booing is different from supporting and really without any positive impact. Apart from that I agree with much you write here.

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17 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Fact is, those who booed were at the game and probably go to every game so they are no better or worse than anyone else.

Maybe the expectations are too high or level of disappointment is even higher.

They were still at the game at the final whistle as well, which is more than can be said for the majority of the Snakepit.

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3 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Results cause their own pressure. I think @Badger's point was booing is different from supporting and really without any positive impact. Apart from that I agree with much you write here.

Well you could argue that if it brings about change and that change has a positive impact then it has contributed to that positive impact. Or equally that if it forces farke to have a good, hard look at what is going wrong perhaps a bit quicker than he would otherwise have done then it could also end up having a positive impact.

Overall though I agree with the post above that is is largely spontaneous and football fans have always done it when their team has lost. I cant remember a home defeat where there have not been some boos at the final whistle although I would agree that they go up a notch at times when people are disatisfied with the manager or the board generally. 

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This whole thread is simply repeating old ground with some, generally on the “no booing whatever the circumstances” side, seemingly unable to understand that, for many, watching their team is an emotive experience producing passionate, visceral and spontaneous reactions.  These can range from outbursts of elation such as cheering, chanting, hugging the stranger standing next to them etc, to immediate displays of anger and disappointment which can include shouting at the ref, giving “advice” to players and, yes, booing.  I fully understand that not every supporter (and please let’s not rehash the tedious semantic argument over whether or not someone is a supporter) responds in this way and some are rather more dispassionate, considered and objective in their reactions, and that’s fine.  But in the same way that they are angered by those who occasionally display their concern and displeasure by booing, others will find the unconditional applause and praise after another inept performance to be equally inappropriate.

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1 minute ago, Jim Smith said:

Well you could argue that if it brings about change and that change has a positive impact then it has contributed to that positive impact. Or equally that if it forces farke to have a good, hard look at what is going wrong perhaps a bit quicker than he would otherwise have done then it could also end up having a positive impact.

It doesn't and it won't, so has an impact that is entirely negative. Still everyone is entitled to express and opinion however devoid of reason it is.

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2 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

This whole thread is simply repeating old ground with some, generally on the “no booing whatever the circumstances” side, seemingly unable to understand that, for many, watching their team is an emotive experience producing passionate, visceral and spontaneous reactions.  These can range from outbursts of elation such as cheering, chanting, hugging the stranger standing next to them etc, to immediate displays of anger and disappointment which can include shouting at the ref, giving “advice” to players and, yes, booing.  I fully understand that not every supporter (and please let’s not rehash the tedious semantic argument over whether or not someone is a supporter) responds in this way and some are rather more dispassionate, considered and objective in their reactions, and that’s fine.  But in the same way that they are angered by those who occasionally display their concern and displeasure by booing, others will find the unconditional applause and praise after another inept performance to be equally inappropriate.

Post of the thread.

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36 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

"Our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure"

We've just won a league with the best total of points by our club - ever.  And we are only five games into the new season, the first four of which represented one of the most difficult starts possible - yet we were very close to getting something against Leicester and at Arsenal. So we lost one match where we might have expected to get at least a point. One match.

"Booing puts down a marker"

No it doesn't, it just makes those that boo look as if they are living in some kind of parellel universe where booing is seen as being supportive. 

"This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced" 

One of the reasons we get good people into the club is that they know they will be given good support from their board. If we axe managers at the same rate of other clubs, we would be in a right state and probably would not have had the success we have had in getting the promotions we have had up to now - a club with limited resources sacking and hiring managers regularly is doomed to failure. 

"Farke needs to sort it quickly"

Absolutely, but if it takes a few weeks before we start to make some headway, are the booers going to carry on booing, or are they going to recognise that you can't just expect success and there may be some more pain before there is success? 

Overall, booing is counter productive and if used at all, should be a last resort.  We need support - Farke says he understands why people boo and that it is their right to do it if they so want, but he also says it is unhelpful, especially to the younger players. Isn't that something to consider?

And if an action is "unhelpful", as he - and a lot of us - think - would not a supporter think twice before doing that action?

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18 minutes ago, robert choice said:

Despite VAR doing it' best to make it otherwise, football is all about spontaneity and so booing is a spur of the moment thing.

No one goes to a game planning to do it but when overwhelmed with disappointment after 90 minutes of surrenderism such things happen.

So booing is mindless. Thanks for confirming this.

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Just now, BigFish said:

It doesn't and it won't, so has an impact that is entirely negative. Still everyone is entitled to express and opinion however devoid of reason it is.

Do you think Worthington would have been sacked when he was without the fan backlash? That began with booing at the final whistle. It doesn't go from applauding at the end of the game to a full scale campaign in the space of two home matches, it's a gradual thing.

I booed, not through any conscious decision, I was just utterly dejected, disgusted and angry at what I'd just seen. It was probably amplified by the fact that I missed Liverpool and Leicester so this was an afternoon I'd been looking forward to for months and months and it ended up being a total waste of time. Booing was instinctive, and in hindsight probably a means of venting. And that's quite important at that moment because I have the pleasure of walking past the South Stand and up and over the railway bridge on my way home. Without that little bit of release at the final whistle, I'd have carried that rage through a bunch of Stone Island clad Watford twats.

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2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

"Our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure"

We've just won a league with the best total of points by our club - ever.  And we are only five games into the new season, the first four of which represented one of the most difficult starts possible - yet we were very close to getting something against Leicester and at Arsenal. So we lost one match where we might have expected to get at least a point. One match.

"Booing puts down a marker"

No it doesn't, it just makes those that boo look as if they are living in some kind of parellel universe where booing is seen as being supportive. 

"This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced" 

One of the reasons we get good people into the club is that they know they will be given good support from their board. If we axe managers at the same rate of other clubs, we would be in a right state and probably would not have had the success we have had in getting the promotions we have had up to now - a club with limited resources sacking and hiring managers regularly is doomed to failure. 

"Farke needs to sort it quickly"

Absolutely, but if it takes a few weeks before we start to make some headway, are the booers going to carry on booing, or are they going to recognise that you can't just expect success and there may be some more pain before there is success? 

Overall, booing is counter productive and if used at all, should be a last resort.  We need support - Farke says he understands why people boo and that it is their right to do it if they so want, but he also says it is unhelpful, especially to the younger players. Isn't that something to consider?

And if an action is "unhelpful", as he - and a lot of us - think - would not a supporter think twice before doing that action?

If we axed managers at the same rate as other coubs Farke would not have survived the dreadful run that culminated in the last relegation. 

I'm not claiming booing is supportive and I don't think anyone would argue that but it is a natural and perfectly understandable reaction (not just to the result but also the nature of the defensive performance) that supporters have always done and those that think its not going to happen are frankly living in cloud cuckoo land. Go to St James's Park and listen to the reaction if they have that result last saturday. Ours will seem tame in comparison but what should not be ignored is that we have a relatively placid support so when they start to boo in large numbers it tells you that things are bad and that the point is approaching (not yet arrived but coming over he horizon) where some action may be required. 

I doubt very much that professional players are affected to any great degree when its clearly not targetted at them individually. Frankly that just a convenient line that managers come out with. Whats he going to say "yeah they love it."

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I disagree. Too often our fans are too compliant and too tolerant of failure. It gives the board the impression they can just continue as the fans are content with what is going on. Booing (in this scenario) puts down a marker that we are not just going to put up with or tolerate another pathetic effort to stay in this division and that they may therefore need to act. This board has history of not acting on anything until their hand is absolutely forced. Farke needs to sort it quickly: we can’t let this just drag on. 

I don't personally think, particularly in modern day social-media times, that the 'board' need to hear fans 'booing' to realise a performance was no good.

I certainly don't think Webber would have sat their after a 3-1 loss to Watford and thought "Oh, there wasn't loads of booing. We must have played really well!".

Equally, had our board acted in the way you'd like them to, we'd have sacked Farke after his first season, employed Rowett and probably be enjoying League One football.

Had we not done that, we'd have sacked Farke when we got relegated, or a few games into the Championship season, and possibly not have enjoyed a records point total and title last season.

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

It’s both isn’t it. 

Of course it isn’t. How on earth do you give Farke a few games to rectify things after the board have already acted promptly and sacked him?

For what it’s worth, it could actually be the simple case that Farke doesn’t actually do anything different in the next few weeks, the new boys settle in and really start to gel over the coming games, turning the results around. That however will not happen in a million years if the customers provide a worsening environment for them, that you can be sure. 

Edited by Alex Moss

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27 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

This whole thread is simply repeating old ground with some, generally on the “no booing whatever the circumstances” side, seemingly unable to understand that, for many, watching their team is an emotive experience producing passionate, visceral and spontaneous reactions.  These can range from outbursts of elation such as cheering, chanting, hugging the stranger standing next to them etc, to immediate displays of anger and disappointment which can include shouting at the ref, giving “advice” to players and, yes, booing.  I fully understand that not every supporter (and please let’s not rehash the tedious semantic argument over whether or not someone is a supporter) responds in this way and some are rather more dispassionate, considered and objective in their reactions, and that’s fine.  But in the same way that they are angered by those who occasionally display their concern and displeasure by booing, others will find the unconditional applause and praise after another inept performance to be equally inappropriate.

Yeah this basically. 

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39 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

This whole thread is simply repeating old ground with some, generally on the “no booing whatever the circumstances” side, seemingly unable to understand that, for many, watching their team is an emotive experience producing passionate, visceral and spontaneous reactions.  These can range from outbursts of elation such as cheering, chanting, hugging the stranger standing next to them etc, to immediate displays of anger and disappointment which can include shouting at the ref, giving “advice” to players and, yes, booing.  I fully understand that not every supporter (and please let’s not rehash the tedious semantic argument over whether or not someone is a supporter) responds in this way and some are rather more dispassionate, considered and objective in their reactions, and that’s fine.  But in the same way that they are angered by those who occasionally display their concern and displeasure by booing, others will find the unconditional applause and praise after another inept performance to be equally inappropriate.

This sums it up for me too .... best one I've read so far

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

Or equally that if it forces farke to have a good, hard look at what is going wrong perhaps a bit quicker than he would otherwise have done then it could also end up having a positive impact.

Do you really believe that he is not "have(ing) a good, hard look at what is going wrong?"

Do you honestly not think that he wants us to win just much as the fans do? Apart from anything else, it is his career. I'm sure he'd get a job if we sacked him, but equally I'm also sure that he would get a better one if he establishes us as a solid mid-table team.

I'm sorry Jim, but I don't see how it is possible to buy into the idea that he only wants to find a winning combination because a few fans boo at the end!

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1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

This whole thread is simply repeating old ground with some, generally on the “no booing whatever the circumstances” side, seemingly unable to understand that, for many, watching their team is an emotive experience producing passionate, visceral and spontaneous reactions.  These can range from outbursts of elation such as cheering, chanting, hugging the stranger standing next to them etc, to immediate displays of anger and disappointment which can include shouting at the ref, giving “advice” to players and, yes, booing.  I fully understand that not every supporter (and please let’s not rehash the tedious semantic argument over whether or not someone is a supporter) responds in this way and some are rather more dispassionate, considered and objective in their reactions, and that’s fine.  But in the same way that they are angered by those who occasionally display their concern and displeasure by booing, others will find the unconditional applause and praise after another inept performance to be equally inappropriate.

In other words, it is alright to make a bad situation worse because it makes you feel better!

There is plenty of evidence that booing the players/ or the team drains confidence and leads to underperformance, and yet you still feel it is "the right thing" to do?

I suspect that you won't like the analogy and of course it has it's limitations, but a parent with a visceral love for their child will not help them to acquire a difficult skill by shouting at and booing them: you don't improve performance by losing it with them.

So why do it, if it's going to make things worse?

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4 minutes ago, Badger said:

In other words, it is alright to make a bad situation worse because it makes you feel better!

There is plenty of evidence that booing the players/ or the team drains confidence and leads to underperformance, and yet you still feel it is "the right thing" to do?

I suspect that you won't like the analogy and of course it has it's limitations, but a parent with a visceral love for their child will not help them to acquire a difficult skill by shouting at and booing them: you don't improve performance by losing it with them.

So why do it, if it's going to make things worse?

Maybe ask Alex Ferguson, he seemed to have made a career out of shouting at players

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Boo Boo Bear Running transparent PNG - StickPNG

...."I'm off to Carrow Road tonight"......"I love it there, because at full-time everyone shouts my name.......Even Yogi".....

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1 hour ago, Jim Smith said:

I doubt very much that professional players are affected to any great degree when its clearly not targetted at them individually. Frankly that just a convenient line that managers come out with. Whats he going to say "yeah they love it."

Are you sure about this?

Steven Gerrard,

"“It was uncomfortable playing in the atmosphere under Roy. It felt tense and you could feel the players going into a shell. “You know yourself when you’re playing and the crowd are tense, getting on the players’ and team’s back, you don’t try something or you play it safe.

“That’s me talking as an experienced player and captain, so it probably had a bigger effect on other players."

 So it effects Steven Gerrard, an experienced international and many would say "a great," but you don't think it affects our young and inexperienced team!

The interview was before Gerrard became a manager.

Now that you know it negatively affects performance are you going to stop it or carry on anyway?

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2018/03/steven-gerrard-discusses-uncomfortable-period-liverpool-roy-hodgson/

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