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****The Official Lapps Match Thread v Watford (H)(PL) ****

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4 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Id hardly say Watford outplayed us. After we equalised we were improving and I thought we were more likely to go on and win the game.

Watford outscored us because they got their tactics right, took their chances and we made it far far too easy for them to score. But they didnt play us off the park

I thought that they were clearly the better team and looked more dangerous than us. They had quite a few chances they didn't take also. They come and done a job on us. 

Edited by Alex

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I'd rather have our squad than theirs. Which means there is something wrong at the managerial/coaching level. I don't feel we are getting the best of what we have, and what we have includes some very capable players.

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Just now, Alex said:

I thought that they were clearly the better team and looked more dangerous than us. They had quite a few chances they didn't take also. 

 

I certainly agree they could have scored more, Krul's big save comes to mind. We seem as easy to score against as we were two seasons ago and thats the most concerning thing.

We huff and puff and sometimes play some nice football, then the opposition score. Pattern is the same, and I do agree manager and coaching staff have to take responsibility for that

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1 minute ago, Tumbleweed said:

I'd rather have our squad than theirs. Which means there is something wrong at the managerial/coaching level. I don't feel we are getting the best of what we have, and what we have includes some very capable players.

I just hope that by the time they get match fit and gel the season isnt already gone.

We were kind of in that position with CBs last season. I hoped that after the restart maybe we might have been able to have kept fitness up and had an advantage there, but quite the opposite

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47 minutes ago, Heading South said:

Why do keep saying the squad is good enough …… it clearly is not , lacks the physicality for me .

I agree that parts of the team lacks physicality, especially the case of Gilmour and cantwell. Normann, Sargent and William look to have the needed strength, on a skill level I think we do have a team capable at this level though so its upto the coaches to set up dependent on the opposition, this is what Farke cannot do.

 

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5 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Kabak stays with his man, goal-side, striker doesnt score. First goal Kabak isnt strong or brave enough for me, Watford guy gets there first

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

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15 minutes ago, king canary said:

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

Not sure why you are picking on that. If Hanley pushes up to Kabak and Aarons, the player the ball is being played to is still onside. What you have in our left hand side there is effectively three players Vs two of ours. It looks like Normann is there but has given his man a couple of yards head start. Williams has gone to the player that is playing the ball to close them down.

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19 minutes ago, king canary said:

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

Hanley is simply nowhere near Premier league standard 

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14 minutes ago, chicken said:

Not sure why you are picking on that. If Hanley pushes up to Kabak and Aarons, the player the ball is being played to is still onside. What you have in our left hand side there is effectively three players Vs two of ours. It looks like Normann is there but has given his man a couple of yards head start. Williams has gone to the player that is playing the ball to close them down.

Sure, Kings still onside. But if Hanley is where he should be he'd be close enough to actually defend against King and Sarr then has to get back into an onside position. 

Others arent doing their jobs but the fact our defensive leader is that out of position is shocking. 

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1 minute ago, king canary said:

Sure, Kings still onside. But if Hanley is where he should be he'd be close enough to actually defend against King and Sarr then has to get back into an onside position. 

Others arent doing their jobs but the fact our defensive leader is that out of position is shocking. 

Sorry but that's a poor judgement. King is making the run into the channel, if Hanley pushes up, he's going to get beaten with King bursting past him into space - unless you think Hanley would win the foot race? By which point Sarr is then on side as play has caught up with him... which is what happened isn't it?

It's great to freeze an image and point at it, but it's the passage of play that is more important. If you play against a team where pace is their main weapon, one choice is to sit a bit deeper to deny them the space to run into. I made this point several times last time we were in the PL as we had no genuine pace in behind. This allowed teams to push up on us more knowing that we couldn't take advantage of the space they were surrendering.

The point here is, as much as you want to blame Hanley, it's not Hanley's fault.

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Just now, chicken said:

Sorry but that's a poor judgement. King is making the run into the channel, if Hanley pushes up, he's going to get beaten with King bursting past him into space - unless you think Hanley would win the foot race? By which point Sarr is then on side as play has caught up with him... which is what happened isn't it?

It's great to freeze an image and point at it, but it's the passage of play that is more important. If you play against a team where pace is their main weapon, one choice is to sit a bit deeper to deny them the space to run into. I made this point several times last time we were in the PL as we had no genuine pace in behind. This allowed teams to push up on us more knowing that we couldn't take advantage of the space they were surrendering.

The point here is, as much as you want to blame Hanley, it's not Hanley's fault.

But you cant sit deeper on your own. Thats just basic. One defender 5 yards behind the rest just creates problems. Hanley should'nt need to be 'pushing up' because he should be in line with his team mates, not setting his own defensive line for ****s and giggles. If we're supposed to be sitting deeper tactically then the entire back 4 would be doing it, not just one player. 

You're right the passage of play is important- I'd be more sympathetic to Hanley if he'd been dragged deep by tracking a runner but he hadn't. He'd just totally switched off and had no idea where his fellow defenders were. 

If he's in position he's making life harder for King who has to go it alone, take him on the outside and shoot from a tougher angle. Instead, his **** poor positioning means King can freely charge to the by line and pull it back with ease to Sarr who should have been offside. 

So if it isnt on Hanley then you must be saying all three other defenders were holding an incorrect line? 

 

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55 minutes ago, king canary said:

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

Kabak and Hanley both looked good for 80 minutes generally but both had serious lapses. It doesn't help weve played another new partnership. Hopefully we settle on one.

Anyway, that isn't what I wanted to post about. This goal, at the time, was painfully clear to see coming as Williams was incredibly high,  but not just high, he hadnt really either tucked in or kept wide. Normann seems to be in a position to recognise this but just takes up  space in no-mans land - hes protecting somewhere where there is no immediate danger.

 

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54 minutes ago, king canary said:

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

Comments:

1. Everyone is running back, so not sure what happened for Hanley to be stood still looking forward 5 yard behind everyone.

2. All the Watford players are in space. 

3. Shouldn't Hanley being about to go after the runner (where ball going to) and leave the other player for Kabak.

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8 minutes ago, Baracouda said:

. Everyone is running back, so not sure what happened for Hanley to be stood still looking forward 5 yard behind everyone.

This is whats so baffling, nothing happened to put him there. If you watch the highlight of the goal, he's just...there. 5 yards off everyone else. Never in line, never moved out of position by an attacker, just merrily setting his own defensive line for...reasons?

Don't get me wrong he's certainly not the only person at fault here- Williams is neither in line or closing down the man on the ball, Normann should track his man better and Kabak should be aware Hanley is so far off that he cant let Sarr run on. But the lack of defensive shape stems from Hanley here. 

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41 minutes ago, king canary said:

But you cant sit deeper on your own. Thats just basic. One defender 5 yards behind the rest just creates problems. Hanley should'nt need to be 'pushing up' because he should be in line with his team mates, not setting his own defensive line for ****s and giggles. If we're supposed to be sitting deeper tactically then the entire back 4 would be doing it, not just one player. 

You're right the passage of play is important- I'd be more sympathetic to Hanley if he'd been dragged deep by tracking a runner but he hadn't. He'd just totally switched off and had no idea where his fellow defenders were. 

If he's in position he's making life harder for King who has to go it alone, take him on the outside and shoot from a tougher angle. Instead, his **** poor positioning means King can freely charge to the by line and pull it back with ease to Sarr who should have been offside. 

So if it isnt on Hanley then you must be saying all three other defenders were holding an incorrect line? 

 

How can Sarr be offside from a pull back from the by-line? 

No, I'm not saying that at all. It's deeper than that.

Dennis has the ball, Williams has gone to close him, he has gone some way out of position to do so, but clearly wasn't close enough in the first instance. So you have two questions for that straight away - where is his wing cover?

Then you have King who is busting through with Normann clearly having lost sight of his path and desperately trying to make up for that hot on his tail but by a couple of yards. He lost his runner.

Two bits of movement - Dennis has drawn Williams towards him creating space for King to hit. Sarr had made a run to ensure that our defence had a choice to make which was to make sure he didn't have a free run in case Dennis struck it over the top to him, again, his run means that the space is opened up for Dennis to play the ball into and King to run into.

You put too much focus on Hanley playing Sarr onside here when that isn't an issue. He's not interfering with play even if Hanley is pushed further forwards. However, had Hanley been further forwards and closer to King, Sarr only needs to hold his run and the ball into the channel is his instead, or worse, down the middle where you would be able to drive the titanic into the space between Hanley and Kabak.

Either way, your position of this all being the sole blame of Henley is null and void. King is the issue here and Normann has lost him. The ball being played in happened twice from our left hand side leading to goals. Williams is doing his best to close the player down here, first goal was exactly the same, too much time to pick out a ball and to focus on playing it nicely. You have two other midfielders in shot.

As I said in my first response, look at the overload on the left hand side, three Watford players Vs Williams who is closing down and Normann who has already lost his runner. None of that is Hanley's fault. 

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27 minutes ago, king canary said:

This is whats so baffling, nothing happened to put him there. If you watch the highlight of the goal, he's just...there. 5 yards off everyone else. Never in line, never moved out of position by an attacker, just merrily setting his own defensive line for...reasons?

Don't get me wrong he's certainly not the only person at fault here- Williams is neither in line or closing down the man on the ball, Normann should track his man better and Kabak should be aware Hanley is so far off that he cant let Sarr run on. But the lack of defensive shape stems from Hanley here. 

Why, you have just named three other players involved but blamed it all on Hanley, yet you admit you don't know why Hanley is there so you don't know the passage of play.

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If you take Normann out of that picture, any defensive coach would be screaming at Hanley. Normann was jogging (watch the replay) back from midfield so Hanley could clearly see the danger and just did beggar all.

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We do not have a single coach who knows how to coach a decent defence. If Farke is to remain this needs addressing. 

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Lets do a bit more shall we? First goal taken from the highlights on youtube.
image.png.30b7ddf88c8042e587058c05bbcabb61.png

Dennis is between Kabak and Aarons. Rashica and Williams are too close together and neither are closing down the Watford full back. If Kabak doesn't know Dennis is there he would expect a shout from Aarons. Is that communication there? Does Kabak know Dennis is there? In the end Kabak is week and fails to hold off Dennis coming across him and Aarons just watches. Nothing Hanley can do about that, all about one of Rashica or Williams being much faster in closing down the ball and Kabak dealing with the ball in.

2nd goal, this is the angle from the NCFC youtube channel of the moments leading up to the freeze screen you shared.
image.png.059dc403e1bce9a42620610feeddc221.png
In the run up to this those players threaten to run in over the top as we have been pushing up. The radio Norfolk commentary suggested that several players were caught due to an airs-hot by Sissoko. In either case, moments before, they were closer to the half way line, with players pushing forwards. Hanley is clearly concerned by the pace of Sarr and has decided rather than risk off-sides, to try and get closer to marking the space. If you look at where Sarr is right here, you can see why. However, if the ball here is played to Sarr, he is on side, you would have a reason to bemoan Hanley. However, he is trying to get across and I can understand what he is trying to do to try and counter the break and get across.

Straight after this, in the footage, he is clearly communicating with players to get back and into shape. He is gesticulating, and pointing. The freeze shot you show, has players sprinting back to do so. He is clearly telling Normann to get over towards King too. Moments after this.

image.png.f2fe28ffc6621f6ea972299f145b68e8.png

Normann is facing King having been told alerted to his position and the threat. Williams has started to turn to face where the ball is being played. Look at the space between where he is and where the player he is going to close down is. Neither Kabak nor Aarons are close at this point, in fact, Rashica is further back. Look how much space the two Watford players have in their half. Again, if they bang one over the top into the channel at this moment to Sarr, then yes, Hanley is playing him on-side. But they don't. It is, however, effectively 4 Vs 3. There isn't another player closing down either of the two Watford players in their half.

Thiimage.png.ce90858182a81be412feeadef383b286.png

This is just before your freeze frame. Normann has somehow allowed King to get inside of him, not just beyond him. Hanley is getting Kabak to come in and get Sarr - you can see him looking at Kabak and pointing. This is because he will want to go and close King down. With Normann, the best thing I can say here is that he knows Williams needs to close and see's the threat of the 2nd Watford player - however, stick with your runner... 
image.png.17f908860a9ea82397f1c728d548ca3e.png
Just after your frame where the ball has been played. King has got inside and away from Normann, Williams didn't close down quick enough. The ball played into the channel on the edge of the box cuts them both out. Hanley knows he has to react, King would have been onside whether he was inline or not. Kabak at this point realises he should have been sprinting back. Hanley looks to close down the space King is now in.

image.png.2903b6cf6bd013f8995e6383c4752996.png

Now we are 2v2. Kabak is just behind Sarr but goalside if he can get back inline with him. Hanley having looked to close King down has realised that he has gone too wide now so is better holding his run in line with the post. He doesn't now know where Sarr is though, having given this responsibility to Kabak who's job it is not to communicate this at least.
image.png.05a0762b54ef287dcc94ebaa102d2e49.png
This is dreadful. Sarr brushes Kabak out of the way, Hanley unawares, goes to try and block the cut back. At this point, when I was coached, I was told if a player beats you, get back to your goal line. Kabak just stops. Hanley puts in a challenge but is unable to stop the shot. If Kabak follows in towards the goal to Krul's right he stops the shot. Aarons has also stopped though is out of the picture and would also have been towards the back post if he had kept going.

If you want to single out any blame here I think you are just wanting to bloody your pitchfork.
1) The two Watford players should not have had so much time and space as that. Where are our other midfielders?
2) Williams should make a choice much faster. Follow King or close the ball. It's a tough call but you have to commit to one or the other. If it was me, and I am certainly not a pro, at the point of the decision I would have stuck with King. Their full back will have to come forward with the ball and you can close him down when there is less space for King to play in to. Going out to him at this point would just allow him to tap it past you and run or play the ball he does into the channel when we are not ready to defend it. So take the choice that cuts out their runners and slows down their play by keeping the ball in front of our defence and not behind it.
3) Normann - as a more experienced pro also needs to make a choice and communicate. Help Williams with the decision. If I were him, help Williams with King then when their full back advances, go to close him leaving Williams with King. Again, with only two attackers looking to get on the end of the ball at this point, marking them means they play it to another player further from our goal or they play a ball that has to be very good.

At no point should the blame for this goal be on Hanley. He doesn't play any of the balls forward onside. He is actually the first to get back and try and form a defensive line.
image.png.811ed85836d3b16a76fbef6f04627dfa.png

Hanley is the first to react to McLean's slice. Kabak play's King onside. McLean dashes back to try and stop King and then follows on to try and stop the shot on the line. I don't blame McLean, slices are horrible. But if you watch the passage of play from literal moments after this Kabak isn't pushing to run back he is holding his arm aloft to claim offside.

In this day and age there is literally no point to claim for offside until the ball is dead because you have VAR there is no point. By doing what he, and to be fair, others including Hanley did, all they are doing is taking themselves out of the game. Now, to be fair to Hanley, he wasn't going to get back to tackle King. But Kabak arguably could have.

It's a horrible result. And I am as gutted as most folks are I feel. I have said a few times that I remain to be convinced by the 4-3-3 formation. I also suggested caution to those suggesting Omobamidele and Kabak should be our starting pairing. Especially on this evidence. However, the one thing you'll never find me submitting to is that a defeat like this is ever one player's fault.

To seek out a scapegoat, to try and paint every goal as their fault, IMHO, is incredibly lowly behaviour. It's a team sport. In football you have at least three banks of players before the goal keeper. Questions start at the front and work their way back. Ultimately one commonality in the three goals is midfield. The first for Rashica not closing the ball down fast enough to prevent or rush the cross. The 2nd for Normann not sticking with the run of King. And sadly the last due to a horrible slice from McLean.

Could the defence have done better? Yes. Williams and Kabak for the first, Williams and Kabak for the 2nd. And to me, as both are what I would call decision making decisions, you have to say it is down to experience. 9/10 you are better making a choice and sticking to it. Easy to say if you have played 20years of footy, even at an amateur level as you face similar decisions just not with the same level of players.

And to be clear, I am not scapegoating Kabak, Williams and/or Normann. I think all three are communication related and experience related. That means we are not working as a team effectively. Voices are not being used, shared or heard if you ask me. Having been that youngster in a side of more experienced players on some ropey Sunday league pitch for James 1st way back in the blurry days of 1998/99 I can tell you, those voices telling you to stay or to go close or to jockey are invaluable. After a while you pick it up, you start getting a feel for the game and knowing. You still need help in trickier moments but you start to get an idea.

It's the same again when you move clubs, you relearn what they want you to do. Some teams want you to close, some to drop. You listen, you adapt, you learn.

These are team goals to have conceded. The defending as a team is poor, the focus should not solely be on the defence - each of these attacks and goals have involved midfield positions in front of the defence.

Edited by chicken
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Hello there Watford fan in peace 

I have Norwich supporting mates so hear a bit about your fortunes. unlucky yesterday I thought it would be 1-1 when you equalised. And you undoubtedly have some talented players.
Just an observation you walked the Championship easily. Defences there are a lot poorer though and strikers more forgiving.

And every team, to me at least seemed much of a muchness

I think for either of our teams to stay up you need to change tactics a bit between both leagues. It’s hard to go between expecting to and playing to win every game to perhaps a more conservative approach where you look to draw and then perhaps sneak a goal and a few wins. 
 

We probably should both be aiming for the magical 40 points with the squads we currently have if we are honest. And plenty of non-top 6 teams have established themselves at least initially that way for a few seasons. 
in short maybe you need some work on a boring consistent defence (we do too for that matter I’m not convinced by ours at all. Rose is clearly talented but has hit the buffet and the others we have well the jury is still out) 
 

anyway best of luck, the points will come. 

Edited by Stowhorn

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9 hours ago, king canary said:

For the first goal i agree, Kabak should do more. The second however all comes from this completely criminal piece of defending by our captain... 

20210918_220232.jpg.da80f096c88e890178fb5f022d3e5c71.jpg

Honestly what the **** is Hanley doing here? 5 yards behind everyone else, playing both Watford attackers onside, it's schoolboy stuff from our most experienced defender.

Yes Kabak could and should have done more but where was Hanley when the cross came in? He didn't even jump to try cut out the cross. The last goal was criminal. Normann didn't track his runner then Hanley was completely ball watching faced too square to Josh King. It's schoolboy defending. Surely during his footballing education he was told to open his body up so he can see ball and players?

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2 hours ago, 7HAR1980 said:

Yes Kabak could and should have done more but where was Hanley when the cross came in? He didn't even jump to try cut out the cross. The last goal was criminal. Normann didn't track his runner then Hanley was completely ball watching faced too square to Josh King. It's schoolboy defending. Surely during his footballing education he was told to open his body up so he can see ball and players?

I'd suggest you watch the highlights. You'd see Hanley does jump and attempt to get to the cross but it is over him. Instead, as my post shows, Aarons and Kabak allow Dennis to cut across them, push Kabak aside easily and score. 

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Some belated thoughts on yesterday-

Good points, thought Sargent looked like an asset. Holt-esque physicality and work rate that helped us retain the ball higher up the pitch, but the question mark will always be over his goalscoring as opposed to his contribution to the team. Normann looked good in patches and will hopefully push on, but tired badly.

Not so good points; still cannot get the midfield mix right. Kabak rusty, Gilmour is looking like Scottish Vrancic and Brandon Williams with shades of Ben Godfrey (in that he makes some cracking last-ditch challenges but almost always this is because he's out of position to begin with)

Feels like the same as last time, with some great spells in there but no goal to show for it before PL opponents just run very fast and its a quick knockout. It's been a tough few games but questions can be asked coming out of Arsenal + Watford games with zero points

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On 18/09/2021 at 22:25, chicken said:

Not sure why you are picking on that. If Hanley pushes up to Kabak and Aarons, the player the ball is being played to is still onside. What you have in our left hand side there is effectively three players Vs two of ours. It looks like Normann is there but has given his man a couple of yards head start. Williams has gone to the player that is playing the ball to close them down.

 

Really they're marking the wrong player. Williams has to close down/go to the ball. This opens up space Normann is not in the right place to stop. 

Hanley should be with the runner with Kabak picking up the other guy. Instead Hanley picks up that guy leaving the space and Kabak doing nothing

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2 hours ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

 

Really they're marking the wrong player. Williams has to close down/go to the ball. This opens up space Normann is not in the right place to stop. 

Hanley should be with the runner with Kabak picking up the other guy. Instead Hanley picks up that guy leaving the space and Kabak doing nothing

It's one of those situations where you are better marking the space they want to be in if you can't deal with their outright pace. Essentially though, Aarons and Kabak are not getting back fast enough. Kabak sprints back and takes the player off Hanley, then yes, you are right, Hanley then has more time to close either King directly or the space he wants to run into.

Williams doesn't have to get really close, just close enough to put the player under pressure and to cut the angle of the pass down to make it more difficult. At this point, Normann no longer has to stay goal side and can just do his best to go with King and hope that anything Hanley does gives him a chance to mop up any loose balls.

But this is exactly why I say it is not Hanley's fault. It was a goal conceded by a lack of team defensive play. If Rashica sprints from his position - further back than Aarons. He can also tell the line to shuffle over as he fills in at RB.

It's why some folks are perhaps not so far off it about a defensive coach - it's not just our defenders, it's how we defend as a team. It's disjointed, lacks communication in both talking and listening. It needs more ownership. Perhaps a bit of a dressing down - you're a defender, use your voice. Lord knows a lot of defenders I have played with aren't scared to! 

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