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COVID 19- Certification

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2 hours ago, Badger said:

Not really Ricardo - still a useful logistical exercise & preparation for when it is introduced for real.

 

I see no need for it to be introduced at all. The pandemic is essentially over, Covid will just be another low level hazzard like flu. Once these restrictions become established they often become difficult to remove.

This goes totally against my libertarian instincts.

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I would like to see proof then, that all current employees of NCFC (and that's including our Board members) are all currently vaccinated against Covid 19.........Especially our thrifty Board members, no excuses, as the jabs are free...... 

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35 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I see no need for it to be introduced at all. The pandemic is essentially over, Covid will just be another low level hazzard like flu. Once these restrictions become established they often become difficult to remove.

This goes totally against my libertarian instincts.

Total b*llocks. Libertarianism is mostly a posh way of justifying an 'I'm all right, Jack' selfishness (as with Boris Johnson), but even when genuine there is nothing in its philosophy that says  people have the freedom to knowingly risk passing on a killer disease to others.

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Purple, I think the key word in your post is knowingly.  Even vaccinated folk can pass the virus, that said I'm with you, if someone knew they were carrying it and didn't stay away then there should be retributions, however to the best of my knowledge I don't know anyone who would knowingly pass it on, unlike the old chicken pox parties, etc. showing my age now I guess.

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3 minutes ago, Ray said:

 Even vaccinated folk can pass the virus,

Which makes this pre match check utterly pointless.

They can't refuse entry and you are not oblidged to show your evidence so other than cause delay upon entry the whole exercise serves no useful purpose other than to be seen as box ticking.

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8 minutes ago, Ray said:

Purple, I think the key word in your post is knowingly.  Even vaccinated folk can pass the virus, that said I'm with you, if someone knew they were carrying it and didn't stay away then there should be retributions, however to the best of my knowledge I don't know anyone who would knowingly pass it on, unlike the old chicken pox parties, etc. showing my age now I guess.

I said 'knowingly risk''. And that 'risk' is crucial. Of course people who know they have the virus should isolate. I am not talking about them. My point is that people should take all possible precautions, such as mask-wearing, to avoid that risk. And this applies to people, including myself, who have been double-vaccinated. I fail to see the argument against it. Are people so fashion-conscious and egocentric they think it's not cool to wear a mask?

Edited by PurpleCanary

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Purple, to knowingly risk is a concept that would be fraught, surely even whist driving a car you are knowingly risking your own and other lives, OK drivers and passengers should wear seat belts (potentially the driving equivalent of a mask??) but pedestrians can not, so should be all stay off motorised transport?  Where is the line drawn, what is the 'knowingly risk, level that is acceptable to society??

 

And no, I do not have the answer, nor am I asking you for it, just musing.

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If the pandemic is ‘ over ‘ what a total waste of time increasing National Insurance by 1.25% which is coincidentally the cost of the booster programme ie £3.6 billion.

As an NHS worker involved in the vaccination roll out we are attacked regularly, both verbally and physically by those that say vaccines kill, masks should be banned, the lockdowns were not needed, hospitals are empty, the NHS are lying, the vaccines offer no protection as you can still catch it and pass it on, and of course vaccine passports are taking away freedom. COVID may well in its own right not overwhelm the NHS but COVID combined with other winter problems will overwhelm the NHS.

If somebody sitting next to me is fully jabbed and I to am fully jabbed it is 25 times less likely that I would catch COVID. If you are sitting next to somebody unvaccinated it is more likely that they have COVID and if you are not vaccinated highly likely you will catch it. As Wembley for the Euros proved LFT are a complete waste of time.

 

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32 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I said 'knowingly risk''. And that 'risk' is crucial. Of course people who know they have the virus should isolate. I am not talking about them. My point is that people should take all possible precautions, such as mask-wearing, to avoid that risk. And this applies to people, including myself, who have been double-vaccinated. I fail to see the argument against it. Are people so fashion-conscious and egocentric they think it's not cool to wear a mask?

Indeed

When we are working outside we will have at least 3 people a day approach us ( unmasked ) who clearly have COVID that are going about their normal business ie they have had 2 jabs so we are idiots for telling them to go home. 
For the Euros we were in a group of 20 that attended the Wembley games. The six unvaccinated and 2 signally vaccinated all caught COVID at the semi final and unknowingly went to the Final COVID positive after negative LFT. The next day ( Monday ) one of them felt unwell so had a PCR test which was positive. We all therefore had pcr tests with the 8 positives, who would have all been contagious on the Sunday.

I wonder how many when you say you would not attend a match with COVID actually now the symptoms for Delta. 1, 2 and 3 are runny nose, headache, sore throat. 
I am neither for or against passports as I am regularly in contact with COVID, however if everybody in the stadium was vaccinated, it would be safer than say 70 or 80 % being vaccinated. 

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36 minutes ago, Ray said:

Purple, to knowingly risk is a concept that would be fraught, surely even whist driving a car you are knowingly risking your own and other lives, OK drivers and passengers should wear seat belts (potentially the driving equivalent of a mask??) but pedestrians can not, so should be all stay off motorised transport?  Where is the line drawn, what is the 'knowingly risk, level that is acceptable to society??

 

And no, I do not have the answer, nor am I asking you for it, just musing.

Ray, not wearing a seat belt is not the equivalent of not wearing a mask. I don't care if people decide to risk catching the virus and dying by, for example, not wearing a mask, on the false justification that it is purely their body and their life and can do what they want with it.

The point is it is not just their body and their life. They categorically do not have the freedom to risk my body and my life or anyone else's by doing so. The Utilitarian principle of the greatest good of the greatest number trumps any faux libertarianism.

And I repeat the question. What is the big libertarian deal about being forced to wear a mask? There are serious infringements on our liberties that are worth opposing, but this is not one of them.

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Tomorrow is such a huge game, I don't they don't **** off a load of fans by causing horrendous queues and ill feeling before the game even starts.

It's a total waste of time practicing anything until you know what the rules are, e.g. will they be insisting on a top up jab for over 50s?

I wish they'd practice opening all the turnstiles instead tbh. 

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To quote you Purple, "They categorically do not have the freedom to risk my body and my life or anyone else's by doing so."  and to return to my point, does this also mean there are a whole host of other things we should not have the freedom to do, such as driving a car, where do we draw the line, if in fact we do?

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3 hours ago, ricardo said:

I see no need for it to be introduced at all. The pandemic is essentially over, Covid will just be another low level hazzard like flu.

I hope that you are right and if you are it won't be done but fear you may be a little premature. There are currently about 8,500 covid cases in hospital in late summer/ early autumn: it won't take much of a take off for the numbers to become unmanageable. We have to keep covid cases out of hospital so we can deal with all the other things that the NHS needs to do.

I'm not sure that it contravenes libertarian principles really: people don't have to get vaccinated if they don't want to - they have a choice. As with any choice there are consequences -- it depends how important they consider the issue.

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2 hours ago, Ray said:

OK drivers and passengers should wear seat belts (potentially the driving equivalent of a mask??)

It is not equivalent at all: if someone in another car does not wear a seatbelt s/he is only a risk to him/herself (and the other passengers in the car) and nobody else. It is their welfare that they are risking

An unvaccinated person is an increased risk to everybody  they meet. In this case, it is not only their welfare but the health of others that they meet as well.

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1 minute ago, Badger said:

 

I'm not sure that it contravenes libertarian principles really: people don't have to get vaccinated if they don't want to - they have a choice. As with any choice there are consequences -- it depends how important they consider the issue.

Indeed, but a check at the gate with no ability to sanction or refuse entry to those without vax evidence serves no purpose other than to delay and annoy supporters. It certainly isn't going to make anybody safer.

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1 hour ago, Ray said:

where do we draw the line, if in fact we do?

Costs v benefits. There are benefits to car ownership both to the individual and society - there are also considerable costs, which the majority of society currently feel make this worth it.

For the healthy and for society, I can't see any benefits of not having a vaccine and many costs.

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2 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Indeed, but a check at the gate with no ability to sanction or refuse entry to those without vax evidence serves no purpose other than to delay and annoy supporters. It certainly isn't going to make anybody safer.

At present there is no sanction or right to refusal, if the govt decides to introduce it, there will be. In the meantime, it is a useful logistical dress rehearsal, which may actually enable football to learn lessons to reduce delays if it is decided that full introduction is necessary.

Contingency planning is quite normal.

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For the healthy and for society, I can't see any benefits of not having a vaccine and many costs.

I hope you are right Badger, for all our sakes, and it will not transpire to be the other way round.

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If people are really concerned about the unvaxed mingling with the vaxed, then it would make more sense for the govt/NHS to compare databases with football clubs. In this day and age it would take seconds and more effective than a stupid forged App page or PDF document.

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GPB, would that be the 5 minute argument or the full half hour argument😉

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3 hours ago, Ray said:

To quote you Purple, "They categorically do not have the freedom to risk my body and my life or anyone else's by doing so."  and to return to my point, does this also mean there are a whole host of other things we should not have the freedom to do, such as driving a car, where do we draw the line, if in fact we do?

Ray, the car analogy makes no sense. This is not perfect but it will do for now.

You work in a small room in an office, along with five other people. You and one of the others have underlying but so far not fatal lung conditions. One of the other three is a heavy chain-smoker, but instead of going outside to puff away insists on doing in this small room.

Smoking is legal and there is no office prohibition on smoking in that room, and this smoker says he has the right to damage his own health, and even end up killing himself if he wants to. But you and the other four, all non-smokers, say he has no right to threaten their health, citing the case of non-smoker Roy Castle who died of lung cancer from passive smoking.

Even if it wasn't five against one, the liberty of a single person not to be given lung cancer would outweigh that of a selfish sod who stands on an absurd claim of personal freedom and knowingly endangers someone else.

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Purple, I agree entirely with your statement, "This is not perfect" for many reasons" for one, smoking is banned at the Carra, but, it doesn't mean smokers are banned from attending, it means they cannot do something when they attend not that they have to do something to attend (mask, vaccinate, etc.) they still have the choice to attend.  Even the current NHS information (radio ads) state even if vaccinated you can still infect others, so, where is the line drawn.  If I do not want to die in a car accident, which I don't, I would not get in a car, but I do?  My main concern is liberty is being eroded and fear mongering is dividing society, not whether someone is vaccinated or not, where will this end?  My suspicions this may be the tip of the iceberg.

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Im double jabbed and have the nhs passport at the ready for some international travel next week but I’m not showing it to some regency security monkey. Pass.

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26 minutes ago, The Real Buh said:

Im double jabbed and have the nhs passport at the ready for some international travel next week but I’m not showing it to some regency security monkey. Pass.

Off to Wales next week then?.....

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5 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Off to Wales next week then?.....

No, I don’t like travelling to third world countries. It always leaves me so depressed. Like watching a Red Cross advert on repeat.

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1 minute ago, The Real Buh said:

No, I don’t like travelling to third world countries. It always leaves me so depressed. Like watching a Red Cross advert on repeat.

Scotland's nice this time o' year......  

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2 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Scotland's nice this time o' year......  

“For just £5 a month, you can help Willie score hit of heroin”

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