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Are we still naïve?

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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

What frustrates me at times is the lack of marginal gains, both from the tactics and at times the application. It makes life very hard for us. If you are a smaller team in the premier league then you need your coach to bring added value at times with tactics, you need to be able to defend set pieces well and you need to be a threat from them at the other end. You need, sometimes, to just keep it tight, play for territory and grind out a result.

in my view we generally play better (as in better technically and more pleasing on the eye) football than probably any other team in the bottom half of the league but we are the least effective and the least streetwise because of our inability to do the above things well enough.

Sometimes great football will win us games but at this level we never win games we don’t deserve to and we lose a lot of games you could argue we deserve something from.  

Norwich City are incapable of "grinding out a result". It is not one of their "principles" or the "Norwich Way". After all, John Bond couldn't tackle and couldn't head the ball - just ask Ken Brown. And so we continue to suffer with this legacy.

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2 hours ago, Petriix said:

Surely Skipp played exactly that role?

I don't see why Normann couldn't be asked to do similar.

From what has been written, Normann is a different type of player.

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19 minutes ago, BigFish said:

From what has been written, Normann is a different type of player.

Van Wolfswinkel was a next level striker too, I seem to remember. 🙂

It's obvious that Normann is a more regimented defensive midfielder if you watched him in his international games, he may have played box to box in Russia - but that doesn't define him as a player, rather it defines what he was asked to do at Club A. 

He's at Club B now and has sent out clear messages via social media that expresses a willingness to break up play(ers) lol 🙂  I'm pretty sure that Farke will bring him in so we have fixed cover when wide backs push on.  Aarons has been too afraid to push forwards in the games we've played so far and he's one of our most effective players coming from deep.

Not sure about Williams, as not seen enough of him to know his attacking play yet.  But regardless, our wide play is suffering due to the nervousness of becoming exposed.

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1 hour ago, sgncfc said:

Given that I live near Watford and know lots of their fans, I can tell you now that they are expecting to lose on Saturday and are not impressed by what they have seen so far this season. So, maybe they would agree with me.

I must admit I find that somewhat surprising, particularly from a side that has had our 'number' for the past couple of seasons. But let's hope they (and you) are proven right on Saturday!

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1 hour ago, Google Bot said:

Van Wolfswinkel was a next level striker too, I seem to remember. 🙂

It's obvious that Normann is a more regimented defensive midfielder if you watched him in his international games, he may have played box to box in Russia - but that doesn't define him as a player, rather it defines what he was asked to do at Club A. 

He's at Club B now and has sent out clear messages via social media that expresses a willingness to break up play(ers) lol 🙂  I'm pretty sure that Farke will bring him in so we have fixed cover when wide backs push on.  Aarons has been too afraid to push forwards in the games we've played so far and he's one of our most effective players coming from deep.

Not sure about Williams, as not seen enough of him to know his attacking play yet.  But regardless, our wide play is suffering due to the nervousness of becoming exposed.

Yeah my hope is Normann is exactly what we need and may also help bring out the best in Gilmour. 

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2 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Van Wolfswinkel was a next level striker too, I seem to remember. 🙂

It's obvious that Normann is a more regimented defensive midfielder if you watched him in his international games, he may have played box to box in Russia - but that doesn't define him as a player, rather it defines what he was asked to do at Club A. 

He's at Club B now and has sent out clear messages via social media that expresses a willingness to break up play(ers) lol 🙂  I'm pretty sure that Farke will bring him in so we have fixed cover when wide backs push on.  Aarons has been too afraid to push forwards in the games we've played so far and he's one of our most effective players coming from deep.

Not sure about Williams, as not seen enough of him to know his attacking play yet.  But regardless, our wide play is suffering due to the nervousness of becoming exposed.

Do hope you are right regards Normann and can't disagree generally although Van Wolfswinkel shouldn't be discredited... Hughton had him in a straight jacket.   Hughton rarely managed to get us over the half way line, poor lad had no chance.    

Back to Normann though, we desparately need players (not one) to do what Skipp did.     If Normann is what we need great but if he gets injured we become very lightweight again..... 

Thats why we need to check out 3 at the back.... would allow the full backs licence, we can go to two in midfield and include another offensive option.   

Something like....

Omobamidele, Hanley, Gibson (Kabak).... 3 from 4.   Sorenson cover

Aarons, Normann, Lees Melou or Gilmour, Giannoulis or Williams                                                                                                                                                     Cantwell (further forward)

then two from.... Pukki, Idah, Tzolis, Rashica, Sargent.

Given the players we have, we could be close to having something that works, its just this CDM position thats plagued us for so long.    Skipps loan has hindered any development in this area, perhaps held Sorensen back too.

 

    

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On 13/09/2021 at 16:50, ged in the onion bag said:

Seems the pundits, even some of our own fans here have us as an irrelevant participant in this competition, already condemned to relegation, now a barometer (if you can’t beat them you do have a problem).   On the face of it that seems unfair, difficult pre-season, horrible fixtures, too many new players… but every game has to be an opportunity for points, our season doesn’t start next week, it started 4 games ago and everything has an effect.

Given how well the club is run, the improvement year on year, the financial situation, the entertainment value; on the back of such progress, being critical seems churlish.    But its our club and it's tough when we seem to be ridiculed or sidelined for the most part in the media.

We can’t keep giving ourselves excuses, making it easy for opponents… no, each game, surely we go to get points and compete but to often, we haven’t done that.  

Luck, we never get any, whether its Cantwell not interfering with McLean’s header last week or Aubameyang’s tap in.   The fact is, despite players throwing themselves in the way to block efforts, if you concede 30 opportunities in a match then sure enough, you’ll encounter a lot more misfortune than if you allow 10-15 chances.    Conversely, the more chances you create, the more luck comes your way, hence Arsenal won and Crystal Palace got the all important penalty against Spurs, pure luck but they made it happen.

So, Man City away, why try to play out from the back and keep trying and keep putting ourselves under pressure, why risk dampening confidence, suspect Giannoulis isn’t feeling too great right now!   Why play Pukki upfront when Idah can hold the ball up better and offer an option over the top to get us up the pitch?   Why have 10 players on our 6-yard line at corners (in any game) and what is the point of Gilmour and Pukki in that line?    Surely Gilmour on the edge of the box prevents a free shot at goal (Salah for Liverpool’s 3rd) and Pukki up front 1) gives us an out ball on the counter and 2) keeps one more opponent away from our goal and 3) gives us another option, makes us less predictable!   Does it make sense for Pukki to keep receiving the ball half way in our own half?   No, but perhaps it would with two up front.     These are finer details we should be addressing / questioning.

Shouldn't we start with the basics, make things difficult for opponents, get the ball further forward sooner, mix it up a little bit, opponents all know we'll pass it out and with our limited forward threat, they can confidently press to stop us.   If we're going to mix it up, were probably better off 3-5-2 or 4-4-2, especially if were to get productivity out of Teemu.   

Counters are behind our full-backs, no Skipp / no cover!   Would 3 at the back give us more coverage of the wide areas and allow full-backs some insurance to go forward, plus allow us to play 2 midfielders instead of the 3 which shows no signs it could work.    Perhaps revisit the 3 when we can keep teams away from our goal and players have settled in.  

The most obvious problem last time out was our abysmal central midfield when McLean and Tettey were the last men standing of the bad bunch.    What have we done about it since…. helped a Spurs player become the next Kante’ whilst our Lungi sits on his backside wondering if he will ever play football.   At the very least, since that relegation, priority should have been 3 holding midfielders (whether we develop our own (Lungi) or bring them in) before any other position and this will potentially cost us our status again and reinforce the whipping boy reputation from afar.   It’s definitely already cost us goal difference if not points!     In fairness, I can put up with that and justify our club’s path no problem, but I want to see us up an at em!     But we’ve failed to address this position, not sure we even have one player since Normann is untried and supposedly not a holding player… and since we look lightweight already, what happens if he gets injured.   How do we stop this class of opponent, how do we get a threat further forward when we are so easy to counter against.    Amazed Sorenson hasn't even had a look in to the extent not sure why he is still here!  

What's for certain is that this Watford game isn't the start of our season (the minus 10 goal diff. confirms that), the following week we will have another toughy!   We must cut out the mistakes, change the shape, mix up the tactics, become unpredictable and above all stop conceding chances.    Watford will press, they will smell blood like every other team.     

Couldn’t possibly pick a team from this group yet as we don’t know their abilities, level or fitness and its unfair to be critical of any player, time will tell.   Would like to see us test formations though, at least see if 3 defenders might work better, try something different.    Not sure trying something else is a risk in our situation. 

Has to be accepted that bringing a group of new players together with hardly any EPL experience and getting the team to gel in this unforgiving environment is some task.   What we're expecting Daniel Farke to achieve is probably unreasonable.     In so many respects he is fantastic but in the finer game details at this level I worry he still has a lot to learn / experience.    Really would like to know what the thinking is about 10 in our 6 yd box at corners.    That said, wouldn’t change him for anyone.        

Should we change the team to suit opponents, e.g is Pukki right for every game?   I don’t think so.  Are we naïve?

The players haven't had time to gel its been a very difficult fixture list so far on the back of last minute filling round holes with round pegs. Normann, Kabak, Sergent, Tzolis will start to intergrate into the team on the back of a weeks training. Lets see where we are after 10-12 games. If its still looking bad we have next seasons championship campaign to excited about 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mullet said:

The players haven't had time to gel its been a very difficult fixture list so far on the back of last minute filling round holes with round pegs. Normann, Kabak, Sergent, Tzolis will start to intergrate into the team on the back of a weeks training. Lets see where we are after 10-12 games. If its still looking bad we have next seasons championship campaign to excited about 

 

Anything we could do in the meantime to stop halt the continous run of defeats (nearing another unwanted record)!    A weeks training won't help that much, sometimes it takes a full season for players to adapt to this league.   We don't have the luxury of waiting around 10-12 weeks... by which time everyone else's confidence might be shot to pieces.     

Surely we need some pragmatic approaches to at least attempt to make teams think, be concerned, worried that we can threaten for the points.   

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Two significant games have passed since posting this thread when clearly our naivety has been further exposed… but … and this is not a rant 
 

It’s historically difficult to bed in so many new players into such an unforgiving at times brutal League, and with all our additions so young and / or having no experience at this level, it’s virtually impossible!    We are suffering from a failure to address the huge gaping hole in our midfield.   It should have been addressed on relegation with permanent signings possessing characteristics of athleticism, strength and tenacity to replace Rupp, McLean and Tettey who were sadly not good enough.    Instead we loaned and developed a player for Spurs who became so important to us that his absence has destroyed the team unit!    Sorensen hasn’t even been trusted to see what he can do.   

After 10 straight defeats, we needed to garner some belief, avoid a complete kickin’ and do everything to make it difficult for opponents.    It’s Liverpool, Man. City and Leicester for crying out loud…. just park the bloody bus!!!!   Get the ball upfield, compete and defend from the front… It’s just blind faith and arrogance to think we can pass the ball out from the back and beat these teams, yes try to play against certain lesser teams when confidence is good but never against the top teams, it’s simply a case of 5 at the back and your biggest, bravest and athletic options across the park.     Go 5-5-0 if necessary just close all the gaps and make it difficult, many a team did it against the great Barca side and picked up something.   Put Adam and / or Josh up top and hope to nick one…..     nothing against Teemu but he’s just not the physical unit for certain games.   Familiarity helps in a team, picking the nucleus of last seasons group was essential then drip feed the new lads in.   7 new players for the Watford game, it’s suicide!    Kabak had no pre-season and is nowhere near match fit…. He signed late, he’s not ready, shouldn’t be in the team yet…. and how must Giannoulis and Gibson feel, having played in those really tough fixtures with a faltering system and midfield in front of them only to be dropped so cheaply in my view!   That’s two already with their confidence shattered.   It’s a team game, if the team isn’t working, it’s tougher to play and unfair to blame individuals…… if we’d parked the bus and gone more direct, would Giannoulis have had such a bad game at the Etihad and got dragged?   Probably not!

It’s that classic, we’re following the same path and expecting to end up somewhere else!   Our approach to football is only as good as the players and tactics and game by game they are getting worse… confidence is a cruel mistress an all that!     

There is now sufficient body of evidence that (for most games at this level) we can’t keep blindly following this game philosophy of passing out from the back…. not with these players at the moment…   These midfielders aren’t good enough to break the press and take us forward, it’s compounded now confidence is on the floor.     We need to get two players up top and get the ball forward quicker.   The only way I can see us having any threat while maintaining some defensive stability is 3-5-2 for the most part and 5-3-2 (5-4-1 even) against the better teams.   4-4-2 even but not a chance with 4-3-3 even if it reverts to 4-5-1.    Not suggesting I know it would work but we’d have a better goal difference and perhaps more belief.

Then there are the in-game management situations, e.g corners, still no one has answered my question what is the point of Pukki and Gilmour in our box at corners.     Neither of them will ever stop Konate or whoever getting a header on our goal and certainly won’t stop Salah or whoever netting from 20 yards when the ball drops out to them!   

On the pitch and tactically we are naive, naive to extraordinary levels.   At 2pm prior to the Watford match, Merson on Soccer Saturday pronounced ‘I only see one result, Watford will sit back and just pick them off on the counter’.    That’s pretty much how it went down…. 

No doubt we have some quality in there but it’s going to take a long time and great patience for us to see it.   This will need re-building now.    Daniel is showing increasing signs that the stress is mounting (e.g handling of Tzolis penalty was uncomfortable viewing) and regardless as to whether that’s mainly the result of his decisions and errors, he deserves the full backing of the support unconditionally, simply for what he’s done for our club.    From a distance there seems a stubbornness to our continued strategy.    Clearly in my view there’s a lot of simple things wrong, I hope Daniel finds a pragmatic way forward, right now though, he needs and deserves full support.   

What do the fans do?    Complain, moan, act like normal fans when the going gets tough or … step up, accept the mess we are now in and get behind them, give them everything over and above.     This is a young side and regardless, we need to protect them all, they are our assets and will all be feeling down, disappointed and pressured.    We need to back off the grief and intensify the support, show all these glory hunters what real support is about!

We need our ‘entitled’ fans, you’d think they are on here anyway to cut out the whining….    Please don’t bite if you think I’m referring to you!     Regardless of what happens and for all his inexperience and mistakes, Daniel has my backing for as long as he keeps us in the top 26! 

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On 13/09/2021 at 17:50, ged in the onion bag said:

Seems the pundits, even some of our own fans here have us as an irrelevant participant in this competition, already condemned to relegation, now a barometer (if you can’t beat them you do have a problem).   On the face of it that seems unfair, difficult pre-season, horrible fixtures, too many new players… but every game has to be an opportunity for points, our season doesn’t start next week, it started 4 games ago and everything has an effect.

Given how well the club is run, the improvement year on year, the financial situation, the entertainment value; on the back of such progress, being critical seems churlish.    But its our club and it's tough when we seem to be ridiculed or sidelined for the most part in the media.

We can’t keep giving ourselves excuses, making it easy for opponents… no, each game, surely we go to get points and compete but to often, we haven’t done that.  

Luck, we never get any, whether its Cantwell not interfering with McLean’s header last week or Aubameyang’s tap in.   The fact is, despite players throwing themselves in the way to block efforts, if you concede 30 opportunities in a match then sure enough, you’ll encounter a lot more misfortune than if you allow 10-15 chances.    Conversely, the more chances you create, the more luck comes your way, hence Arsenal won and Crystal Palace got the all important penalty against Spurs, pure luck but they made it happen.

So, Man City away, why try to play out from the back and keep trying and keep putting ourselves under pressure, why risk dampening confidence, suspect Giannoulis isn’t feeling too great right now!   Why play Pukki upfront when Idah can hold the ball up better and offer an option over the top to get us up the pitch?   Why have 10 players on our 6-yard line at corners (in any game) and what is the point of Gilmour and Pukki in that line?    Surely Gilmour on the edge of the box prevents a free shot at goal (Salah for Liverpool’s 3rd) and Pukki up front 1) gives us an out ball on the counter and 2) keeps one more opponent away from our goal and 3) gives us another option, makes us less predictable!   Does it make sense for Pukki to keep receiving the ball half way in our own half?   No, but perhaps it would with two up front.     These are finer details we should be addressing / questioning.

Shouldn't we start with the basics, make things difficult for opponents, get the ball further forward sooner, mix it up a little bit, opponents all know we'll pass it out and with our limited forward threat, they can confidently press to stop us.   If we're going to mix it up, were probably better off 3-5-2 or 4-4-2, especially if were to get productivity out of Teemu.   

Counters are behind our full-backs, no Skipp / no cover!   Would 3 at the back give us more coverage of the wide areas and allow full-backs some insurance to go forward, plus allow us to play 2 midfielders instead of the 3 which shows no signs it could work.    Perhaps revisit the 3 when we can keep teams away from our goal and players have settled in.  

The most obvious problem last time out was our abysmal central midfield when McLean and Tettey were the last men standing of the bad bunch.    What have we done about it since…. helped a Spurs player become the next Kante’ whilst our Lungi sits on his backside wondering if he will ever play football.   At the very least, since that relegation, priority should have been 3 holding midfielders (whether we develop our own (Lungi) or bring them in) before any other position and this will potentially cost us our status again and reinforce the whipping boy reputation from afar.   It’s definitely already cost us goal difference if not points!     In fairness, I can put up with that and justify our club’s path no problem, but I want to see us up an at em!     But we’ve failed to address this position, not sure we even have one player since Normann is untried and supposedly not a holding player… and since we look lightweight already, what happens if he gets injured.   How do we stop this class of opponent, how do we get a threat further forward when we are so easy to counter against.    Amazed Sorenson hasn't even had a look in to the extent not sure why he is still here!  

What's for certain is that this Watford game isn't the start of our season (the minus 10 goal diff. confirms that), the following week we will have another toughy!   We must cut out the mistakes, change the shape, mix up the tactics, become unpredictable and above all stop conceding chances.    Watford will press, they will smell blood like every other team.     

Couldn’t possibly pick a team from this group yet as we don’t know their abilities, level or fitness and its unfair to be critical of any player, time will tell.   Would like to see us test formations though, at least see if 3 defenders might work better, try something different.    Not sure trying something else is a risk in our situation. 

Has to be accepted that bringing a group of new players together with hardly any EPL experience and getting the team to gel in this unforgiving environment is some task.   What we're expecting Daniel Farke to achieve is probably unreasonable.     In so many respects he is fantastic but in the finer game details at this level I worry he still has a lot to learn / experience.    Really would like to know what the thinking is about 10 in our 6 yd box at corners.    That said, wouldn’t change him for anyone.        

Should we change the team to suit opponents, e.g is Pukki right for every game?   I don’t think so.  Are we naïve?

Completely agree on the 10 in our 6 yd box, I remember a few seasons back, I believe it was Brentford, they kept three up when we had a corner, forcing us to keep four players back!

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I think us supporters as well as management are naive.

We have stepped up once again after another remarkable season and have basked in the sunshine of the plaudits. Well run club, kept the same manager, it will be different this time, a years experience will make a difference etc.

We were impressed when new signings flowed in and the only setbacks were Emi and Ollie.

But the same reason we came down last time prevails. Unless we score at least two goals a game, we are going to lose. We concede every game. And while clean sheets is a well worn cliche, it is so true in our case.

So we went into this season with a change of formation as well as personnel, yet failed to notice that our centre of defence was still Championship at best. Having realised that, we have still plodded on in league games with the same struggling formation and the same players.

Until the coaching staff realise that before you attack at this level you have to be comfortable at the back in defence. The loss of Ollie (he wasn't ours anyway) shouldn't be held as the reason. Go out and replace him then. You may not find one better but the position he held was as much a reason for our success as the dazzling feet of Emi.

And for once stop thinking long term and concentrate on this term.

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