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Petriix

Back to 4-2-3-1 please!

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Last season we made a subtle but significant tactical switch to be better setup to defend at the expense of some of our attacking threat. Where we were previously playing a single CDM with a more advanced CM, we switched to a more conservative double pivot and asked the number 10 to drop a little deeper. It worked. We were hard to break down and we conceded far fewer goals as a result.

Consensus at the time was that we were developing a system that was preparing us for the Premier League rather than returning to the more gung-ho style that had won us the Championship previously. We needed to become more balanced and it's fair to say that we achieved that. So, here we are back in the Premier League and we inexplicably rip up the system we've been so successful with and introduce a completely different midfield setup.

We've scored exactly 0 goals from open play now in 4 matches. We don't look particularly defensively assured and we certainly don't look like winning games although we might have scraped a couple of draws with better luck. Our problem is glaringly obvious: we lack bodies in attack and Pukki is totally isolated. We are going to be hemmed in by superior teams for much of this season so our best chance of picking up wins is going to be through incisive transitions where we switch from defence to attack. Right now we're unable to retain the ball in the opposition half unless they are lined up in front of us.

We are missing having a number 10 and the extra man in defensive midfield is getting bypassed in both attack and defence. We still aren't able to shut teams out, but now we're totally toothless going forwards. I can't understand why we've abandoned the system that was so successful and are persisting with this change that is clearly not working. Let's have Normann and one other CM and give ourselves a fighting chance of scoring a few goals!

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I totally agree with you. The 4-2-3-1 was supposed to be a template for the Premier League, I don't understand why we've deviated away from it and sacrificed a significant amount of our goal threat. Without a number 10 Pukki looks isolated and lost, and with respect to the midfielders having 3 of them instead of 2 doesn't seem to be providing any greater defensive output.

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I’m confused, 4-2-3-1 is what we played our first championship winning season and the first prem season. It has been Farkes main system and not new. The 3 behind Pukki were all number 10s moving around the front and changing positions, sliding balls in. Farke has clearly decided - influenced by Emi leaving - we either dont have the players to play that way anymore or it doesn’t work at this level. Now we have a midfield 3 to try and get hold of some control there and two genuine wide players to play on the counter. I agree this has done Pukki no favours, so either the system changes or Pukki needs to come out of the team and we see what Sargent has got. 

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17 minutes ago, WD40 said:

I’m confused, 4-2-3-1 is what we played our first championship winning season and the first prem season. It has been Farkes main system and not new. The 3 behind Pukki were all number 10s moving around the front and changing positions, sliding balls in. Farke has clearly decided - influenced by Emi leaving - we either dont have the players to play that way anymore or it doesn’t work at this level. Now we have a midfield 3 to try and get hold of some control there and two genuine wide players to play on the counter. I agree this has done Pukki no favours, so either the system changes or Pukki needs to come out of the team and we see what Sargent has got. 

The system was markedly different in the Championship last season. While ostensibly the same formation, the changes in position and responsibility were profound. Consider the kind of number 10 that Stiepermann was in comparison to Dowell at the end of last season: the former often played in advanced positions with a consequent lack of defensive cover.

Sure, with the ball those 3 attacking midfielders were quite dynamic, but when defending they had clear positions. With the 3 CMs we're now playing, our transition play is totally stunted with the only real avenue of attack being the flanks. That's a massive departure from a team used to playing directly through the middle.

I think we *do* have the personnel. 3 from Tzolis, Rashica, Cantwell and Dowell would be a fearsome prospect and would certainly give plenty of support to Pukki.

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I've been banging on to anyone that will listen, 4-2-3-1 is just a better fit. Feels more 'us'. I understand the defensive fragility etc. But, if you can't score there is no way of staying up. Pukki is still a great striker, bit so isolated at the moment. A front 4 of pukki, tzolis, rashica, cantwell, dowell, Sargent, idah..... would/should strike fear into the other teams who will be around us come the end of the season. 

I feel farke is falling into the 'we must not get beat' trap already. When surely attack is a better defense sometimes. 

If we do go, let's go swinging and not wondering what if......

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I've been banging on to anyone that will listen, 4-2-3-1 is just a better fit. Feels more 'us'. I understand the defensive fragility etc. But, if you can't score there is no way of staying up. Pukki is still a great striker, bit so isolated at the moment. A front 4 of pukki, tzolis, rashica, cantwell, dowell, Sargent, idah..... would/should strike fear into the other teams who will be around us come the end of the season. 

I feel farke is falling into the 'we must not get beat' trap already. When surely attack is a better defense sometimes. 

If we do go, let's go swinging and not wondering what if......

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44 minutes ago, Petriix said:

The system was markedly different in the Championship last season. While ostensibly the same formation, the changes in position and responsibility were profound. Consider the kind of number 10 that Stiepermann was in comparison to Dowell at the end of last season: the former often played in advanced positions with a consequent lack of defensive cover.

Sure, with the ball those 3 attacking midfielders were quite dynamic, but when defending they had clear positions. With the 3 CMs we're now playing, our transition play is totally stunted with the only real avenue of attack being the flanks. That's a massive departure from a team used to playing directly through the middle.

I think we *do* have the personnel. 3 from Tzolis, Rashica, Cantwell and Dowell would be a fearsome prospect and would certainly give plenty of support to Pukki.

No simple answers to this equation but I feel Farke will persist with this system he has thought out with the group in mind and hope he can coach into success, given more time with the players all together.

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I think Farke is influenced by Guardiola, Klopp and Tuchel  in the 4-3-3 which seems more fashionable these days. I actually thought he may set up 3-4-3 based on some pre-season games

Edited by Don’t be Krul

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Last time we were in the EPL Farke got accused of being naive and too gung-ho. This time he is attempting a different plan and still gets slated (even though he often gets accused of having no plan B). Gilmour's best position by all accounts is as a deep lying playmaker. 4231 didn't work last time, and there is no reason to believe it would work next time.

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Last time we were in the EPL Farke got accused of being naive and too gung-ho. This time he is attempting a different plan and still gets slated (even though he often gets accused of having no plan B). Gilmour's best position by all accounts is as a deep lying playmaker. 4231 didn't work last time, and there is no reason to believe it would work next time.

We tightened up last season and looked more solid. We could at least give it a go. It can’t be any worse than what we have seen so far.

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Although people will try and convince that we are playing 4-3-3 most of the time in games we’ve been 4-5-1 as our attacking wide players have been pushed so deep. This isolates our one single forward and the ball comes back to us straight after, this is why we are finding it so hard to alleviate pressure when we are being attacked. Formidable opposition granted but we have not helped ourselves with allowing the opposition time and space with a slow press. It’s no coincidence we’ve won the ball the least amount of any team in the league in the oppositions third of the pitch. 

in games we know we are going to have less of the ball I’d actually rather we went 4-4-2 so we at least have a chance of the ball sticking in the final third for a bit to allow our defence to push up and squeeze the pitch. 
 
in games we are more likely to have more of the ball then I’d love to see a return to 4-2-3-1 for more attacking fluidity 

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1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Last time we were in the EPL Farke got accused of being naive and too gung-ho. This time he is attempting a different plan and still gets slated (even though he often gets accused of having no plan B). Gilmour's best position by all accounts is as a deep lying playmaker. 4231 didn't work last time, and there is no reason to believe it would work next time.

We didn't have the right person in that DM role last time. Skipp was there last season and the system worked well. 

Normann might work there but only time will tell. 

What we are missing is a number 10 playing in the striker and wingers. 

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The 4-3-3 formation has made us far more solid in midfield and also helped us play the ball out of defence more effectively. Our recruitment of Gilmour, Normann and Lees-Melou adds to that. The last two, like McLean and Rupp, can also play as a CAM when we have possession and then drop back when the ball is lost. IMO, this is a better balance than either a 4-2-3-1 or a 3-4-2-1.

Against Watford it will allow us to deal with Sarr and their other attacking players more effectively while also creating an effective threat with the ball. We forced Arsenal into a lot of low percentage shots and blocked about a third of those, while managing 10 shots ourselves, with at least 3 of those being very decent chances. We should be able to at least double both those against Watford and contain their threat more effectively as well at CR. 

Edited by Yelloow Since 72
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Perhaps Farke selects 3 in the middle because we don't have 2 defensive midfielders who are good enough for a 4.2-3-1?

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Obvious to anyone who knows a bit about the game against the more fancied teams He’ll play with 3 defensively minded midfielders with two further forward and against teams of similar ability we will switch to two holding and 3 attacking 

In the words of Mike Bassett, ladies and gentleman on Saturday we will be playing 4-2-3-f ing-1 

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13 hours ago, Yelloow Since 72 said:

The 4-3-3 formation has made us far more solid in midfield and also helped us play the ball out of defence more effectively. Our recruitment of Gilmour, Normann and Lees-Melou adds to that. The last two, like McLean and Rupp, can also play as a CAM when we have possession and then drop back when the ball is lost. IMO, this is a better balance than either a 4-2-3-1 or a 3-4-2-1.

Against Watford it will allow us to deal with Sarr and their other attacking players more effectively while also creating an effective threat with the ball. We forced Arsenal into a lot of low percentage shots and blocked about a third of those, while managing 10 shots ourselves, with at least 3 of those being very decent chances. We should be able to at least double both those against Watford and contain their threat more effectively as well at CR. 

That's a reasonable counter-argument and certainly appears to be Farke's tactical thinking. But I'm not satisfied that it's really working as intended. The midfield three had a good enough first half against Arsenal and actually looked to be dominant at times, but that all fell apart in the second half.

In my opinion the extra AM would be more effective than the extra CM: I've not seen enough from PLM yet and Rupp (see his whole own thread) is definitely lacking in goal threat, which is unfortunate when most of our 25-yard openings seem to fall to him. I'd rather have a dedicated number 10 who can drop back where necessary. I'd argue that, with 11 goals conceded and 1 (penalty) scored, the balance isn't quite right yet. And Watford will likely be a tougher test than Arsenal right now.

10 hours ago, Yobocop said:

Obvious to anyone who knows a bit about the game against the more fancied teams He’ll play with 3 defensively minded midfielders with two further forward and against teams of similar ability we will switch to two holding and 3 attacking 

In the words of Mike Bassett, ladies and gentleman on Saturday we will be playing 4-2-3-f ing-1 

I hope you're right, but I fear we may be disappointed.

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19 hours ago, Thingy said:

Perhaps Farke selects 3 in the middle because we don't have 2 defensive midfielders who are good enough for a 4.2-3-1?

Exactly this.

People seem to think in Normann we've got a N'Golo Kante or Fernandinho whereas we've signed a player who is much more box to box.

They also seem to think that 433 is a defensive formation for some reason.

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1 hour ago, KeiranShikari said:

Exactly this.

People seem to think in Normann we've got a N'Golo Kante or Fernandinho whereas we've signed a player who is much more box to box.

They also seem to think that 433 is a defensive formation for some reason.

We're now playing 3 across the middle leaving the striker and 2 wingers as our 3 attacking players. That's more negative that having the 4 (striker, 2 wingers and no. 10) that we played last season.

It could be that with Normann in place Gilmour is given more license to come forwards and attack, I'd like to see it as defending and tracking back simply isn't his game.

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I see 4231, 433, and a 451 as fundamentally the same formation. 3 central midfielders whether that be (2 DM's and a AM or 1 DM and 2 CM's) and the difference being where the wide player is positioned. But relatively, if your not controlling the game and defending for large periods those wide players have to track back and they all default to same position and all 3 become 451s.

The 4231, when your the better side or controlling the possession (i.e us in the championship) works really well. Having lots of possession full backs getting forward into midfield positions, centre backs on the half way line, all 3 AM's in and the around the box. It overruns sides.  Having the 4 attackers when on paper your the worst side, leaves 6 to defend and opportunities to exploit. 

for the 'weaker side' a classic 442 formation, where your solid and competitive in all positions can work really well (i.e Stoke's, Burnley's, Bolton) but isn't necessarily the prettiest. Although it can be great football, if you have 'Eadie' style wide midfielders and they are hard working. 

I prefer 352 formation. Pukki has been very isolated with the 433 and is often the only player in the box when we attack. At least gives 2 central forward positions and when under heavy pressure reverts to a back5, and 3 man midfield and 2 players in and around the box. But can be very narrow.

Nevertheless, at this level pick your poison, any formation will have it's strengths and weaknesses ruthlessly exploited by likes of Man City and Pool. 

 

Edited by Baracouda
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6 hours ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

We're now playing 3 across the middle leaving the striker and 2 wingers as our 3 attacking players. That's more negative that having the 4 (striker, 2 wingers and no. 10) that we played last season.

It could be that with Normann in place Gilmour is given more license to come forwards and attack, I'd like to see it as defending and tracking back simply isn't his game.

Louis van Gaal would say 'You have no vision for football'.

 

We played 4231 under Hughton a lot.

Edited by KeiranShikari
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It's such early days this season that it is too soon to judge the system. It ought to provide even more fluidity and attacking play than last season but the players are still adapting and we haven't even seen Normann and Kabak yet. So the answer is to be patient, trust that the coach knows what he is doing and watch and see how things develop.

No one said it would be easy this season and tough as it is to see us lose those four games, spread out during the season, none of those results would have been surprising.  Stick with it - 433 is probably seen as what we need to do to progress at this level and we really need to give it time to develop. 

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2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

It's such early days this season that it is too soon to judge the system. It ought to provide even more fluidity and attacking play than last season but the players are still adapting and we haven't even seen Normann and Kabak yet. So the answer is to be patient, trust that the coach knows what he is doing and watch and see how things develop.

No one said it would be easy this season and tough as it is to see us lose those four games, spread out during the season, none of those results would have been surprising.  Stick with it - 433 is probably seen as what we need to do to progress at this level and we really need to give it time to develop. 

Positive results are needed now, the pressure will be building but we have ideal opponents this Saturday. Let’s have no regrets and really start going for teams. 

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3 hours ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Positive results are needed now, the pressure will be building but we have ideal opponents this Saturday. Let’s have no regrets and really start going for teams. 

I agree that "positive results are needed now", but that doesn't have to mean all out attack. Watford will be the first time where we will be at least even favourites for a result so we need to stay disciplined and choose the best chances. Watford have lost their last 3 matches, including a 2-0 loss at home to Wolves on Saturday. Our new players are beginning to gel now and we'll have Sargent back and Normann and Kabak as options as well.

This isn't the time to chop and change formations. We need to build on the experience of the first four games and give the players a chance to make it work. The 3 midfielders will still have defensive responsibilities, but they should also be able to get forward more to support the attack when the time is right. DF has a virtually full squad to choose from so he'll have a very strong bench as well.

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When you look at the actual position the players adopted versus Arsenal, while the 'base' formation is listed as 4-3-3, it looks more like a lopsided 4-2-3-1 in practice. Against Leicester, McLean tucked in deeper on the left-hand side while PLM pushed further forward on the right-hand side. 

It makes sense for Norwich to do something different in the Prem than they do in the Championship as they have swung from being one of the best teams in the league to one of the worst. Carrying on as if nothing had changed would be strange. 

Will be interesting to see what Farke pulls out of the bag for the Watford game. It will be the first game where Norwich will be expected to be on the front foot and Farke may revert back to the 4-2-3-1 base formation. 

Screenshot 2021-09-15 at 12.22.39.png

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Just a little bit of me, the part that likes things to be comforting and familiar, is feeling like this thread is missing Bill posting a picture of table football.

Edited by 1902

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6 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Just a little bit of me, the part that likes things to be comforting and familiar, is feeling like this thread is missing Bill posting a picture of table football.

But with no formations, right? 😉

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