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So what's up with Rupp becoming 1st choice?

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7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

I think a lot of the time we all just see what we want to see...

IMG_20210913_005229.thumb.jpg.8934735e1822f9cf40a1b610ee05ce4d.jpg

Which proves my point, those aren't the stats of someone who "played well"

Edited by Ken Hairy

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10 minutes ago, Capt. Pants said:

I would have rather we had sold Placheta and Sorensen and gone for a significant upgrade on Lees-Melou personally. We haven't replaced the creativity of Buendia and the service to Pukki is suffering.

Without going in on the Buendia debacle yet again, I think this is the problem up front. I don't see a lot of creativity in midfield and our striker is not up to it atm. The midfield hasn't really been up to it either 🙄 , but I think the biggest problem is this creativity and not the protection of the back four any more. I find myself pondering, where are the goals going to come from....

The point of getting the new lads to bed in and the team to gel , has become old news and I think we've run out of excuses... Rupp is not a PL quality player imho , but he wasn't that bad on saturday. I think we just can't expect more of him , ... Here's hoping there is more to Normann and he is up to it...

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Rupp generally puts in an expected performance, very rare does he excel and standout and likewise very rare is culpable for a number of poor plays/mistakes.  As a manager consistency is incredibly important and Farke clearly has a lot of trust in him for what i presume is this main factor?.

You'd expect with the loyalty Farke displays, he also plays to instructions given, and puts a shift in.  Even the most successful teams have these 'plain' workers to call on - Fergie used to play Carrick, Klopp plays Henderson - all league winners.  It really doesn't help that we're yearning for a player to spark us up, so when I see Rupp starting and Rashica/Cantwell/Gilmour on the bench, it did conjure a sense of dullness for me.

Personally I would've started Sorensen this weekend as it's his position, in fact when we sealed promotion last season I was saying that Prem league should be immediately be our focus and Sorensen should have replaced Skipp at that point to see if he's capable.

I appreciate Farke wanted to win the Championship, but replacing Skipp should have been made prime objective at that point - as there were plenty of competitive games to start Sorensen. Would've still won the league too I'd imagine.

Find it hard to hate on Rupp as he is what he is, but players like Sorensen missing out is what does baffle me, if I'm honest.  As for doing it in training and being picked on that alone, Grant Holt was apparently shocking in training.

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There does seem an odd balance to our central midfield- Lees Melou, McLean and Rupp all fulfil a similar role- lots of energy, neat passing and can get up and down the pitch but aren't going to create loads or offer really solid defensive cover. Gilmour is the more creative option, with a range of passing but lacks physicality and mobility. Normann (or maybe even Sorenson) is the wildcard here- some suggest he's a box to box type, others think he can be a classic 'destroyer' type who helps cover the back 4 and allows the fullbacks to bomb on. Longer term if we're playing a midfield three, you'd likely think it has to be one of PLM, McLean or Rupp with Gilmour and Normann.

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Farke in past seasons has used the “old guard” in the following season early games whilst new players train and adapt to Farke’s way. Rupp isn’t the future I think is a fair comment. Look at all the German players who once played for us and gave us what we have now👏👏

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57 minutes ago, king canary said:

There does seem an odd balance to our central midfield- Lees Melou, McLean and Rupp all fulfil a similar role- lots of energy

I'm a big fan of Lees-Melou, but do we see him as a high energy player?  For me, that seems to be the biggest criticism I'd have at him so far.  To me, it appears that he likes to work in phases, but perhaps that's how club football was for him previous?

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I thought Rupp did ok on Saturday. He's neat and tidy and he's a useful player to have in the squad. Same for Lees-Melou. But neither should be starting for us regularly and both had tired massively by the hour mark and become a loss less effective. It is that scenario where Farke needs to start using subs better. he had 3 central midfielders on the bench on saturday but none of them came on. Instead, Arsenal eventually scored their (should have been disallowed) goal, he then took off a midfielder and threw on attacking players and they opened us up at will on the counter after that as we lost our shape. the change that needed to be made was Normann, Gilmour or Sorensen for Rupp or Lee's Melou (or indeed two of them for both of them) around the hour mark when Arsenal started to get on top in the midfield after they brought Partey on. 

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Rupp's a very solid player with nothing spectacular in his skillset apart from arguably his workrate and his diligence when not in possession. He's a classic example of a player who's main strengths are in his head, his experience, and his mental approach to games. I thought he was excellent in the Championship last season when injuries didn't stop him, and he also had a rampaging McLean around him - those two seemed to drive each other on.

As Google said, Rupp rarely makes errors, but he rarely sets things alight. There's always room for a "ticker-over" sort of player, and he does that very well. I also share the bafflement with Sörensen, who I thought looked excellent against that reserve Bournemouth team in a very understated way. But that sums up most of Sörensen's performances for me - a very calm, unflustered player who jumps as high as he needs to, rather than one who looks to completely wreck the opposition. And in that - I think that might be why he's not getting the gig we think he should.

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6 minutes ago, Google Bot said:

I'm a big fan of Lees-Melou, but do we see him as a high energy player?  For me, that seems to be the biggest criticism I'd have at him so far.  To me, it appears that he likes to work in phases, but perhaps that's how club football was for him previous?

It's a good point- the whole picture painted from his previous clubs was of a high tempo box to box type but he hasn't shown too much of that so far.

 

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I hav to say i also think Sorensen has been pretty shabbily treated by Farke. He's never been given a fair opportunity in his main position and now if Normann is good you'd have to say he's not going to be given that opportunity for a long time. If i was him I would be quite downhearted. 

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4 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I hope you're not suggesting that Farke bought someone in as a defensive midfielder who isn't a very good defensive midfielder, hogesar. Because we're just idiots on a football forum, how dare you question Farke, Webber or our transfer policy, I think they know a bit more than you.

I'm being flippant. But it is hugely frustrating to see us get totally overrun in midfield four games on the bounce now, admittedly against highly impressive opposition in three quarters of those, plus a fourth who have been utterly whack but were able to field their strongest lineup of the season so far, and not give our only defensively-adept midfielder on the books prior to Normann, a go in his favoured position. Particularly when he was so dependable out of position last season and in his one proper run out this season in the League Cup in the centre of the park didn't put a foot wrong.

If he can't offer more than our midfield has done so far this season then he should have been shipped out in August, either temporarily or permanently.

I think they bought someone in who they saw as having potential to be our defensive midfielder but not all signings work out, and the obvious assumption is they've not seen enough to start him regularly in his natural position ahead of our existing players. Maybe we'll never see that, or maybe he'll be a late developer in football.

Regardless, I don't think our midfield was overrun against Arsenal, certainly the midfield offered superb protection during the obvious early onslaught from Arsenal, then ended up taking control of midfield for the rest of the half.

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4 hours ago, Ken Hairy said:

Which proves my point, those aren't the stats of someone who "played well"

I didn't put them up to show he played well. They are only passing stats and all they show is that he didn't continually give the ball away. Those misplaced passes you highlighted were not his weakness. 

I don't think he will ever be first choice out of the squad for any position. But Farke picked him Saturday from the players he felt were in contention. He certainly didn't let us down and will be unlucky not to play next week. I don't think he will play though. But he appears to have the character to not let disappointment affect his performance next time he's picked.

He's an asset.

Edited by nutty nigel
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2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

I hav to say i also think Sorensen has been pretty shabbily treated by Farke. He's never been given a fair opportunity in his main position and now if Normann is good you'd have to say he's not going to be given that opportunity for a long time. If i was him I would be quite downhearted. 

We don’t know if it’s bad treatment or what (what if it’s him who’s acted the ****!), but more generally I agree & it’s definitely a question a journalist could and should ask.

 People are arguing that DF’s just not impressed by his ability to improve or even match our non-specialist DM options. Not normally one for ‘throw on the guy who’s not being picked!’ But...What happened to ‘prove it on the pitch’? 

 This point may be moot (not ‘mute’ guys! Not mute) now Normann’s here but it’s been a puzzle in his absence, and it will be again if Normann doesn’t work out, gets injured etc 

Edited by GenerationA47
it’s

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1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Rupp's a very solid player with nothing spectacular in his skillset apart from arguably his workrate and his diligence when not in possession. He's a classic example of a player who's main strengths are in his head, his experience, and his mental approach to games. I thought he was excellent in the Championship last season when injuries didn't stop him, and he also had a rampaging McLean around him - those two seemed to drive each other on.

As Google said, Rupp rarely makes errors, but he rarely sets things alight. There's always room for a "ticker-over" sort of player, and he does that very well. I also share the bafflement with Sörensen, who I thought looked excellent against that reserve Bournemouth team in a very understated way. But that sums up most of Sörensen's performances for me - a very calm, unflustered player who jumps as high as he needs to, rather than one who looks to completely wreck the opposition. And in that - I think that might be why he's not getting the gig we think he should.

Diving into his stats so far this season paints the picture of Rupp as a bit of a 'nothing' player.

As NN already highlighted he actually completes most of his passes. However so far this season he's averaging 0.4 key passes (ie passes that lead to a chance) per 90 minutes and is only attempting 2.4 'long balls' per 90 minutes, which suggests he's playing lots of very safe short balls that don't hugely go anywhere. I know we're not a long ball team so I'm not saying he should be playing loads of long balls but compared to other midfielders (Lees-Melou averages 4 per 90 minutes, Gilmour averages 6 per 90) suggests he's playing it even safer than most in this system.

On the defensive side he's making less tackles per 90 (1.2) than anyone else in his position and getting dribbled past more than any comparable players. Where he has been doing well (comparably at least) is interceptions (1.2pg) and his pass completion. But to me, the overall picture is a hard working player but one who isn't actually giving us much in either an attacking or defensive sense at the moment. 

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1 hour ago, hogesar said:

I think they bought someone in who they saw as having potential to be our defensive midfielder but not all signings work out, and the obvious assumption is they've not seen enough to start him regularly in his natural position ahead of our existing players. Maybe we'll never see that, or maybe he'll be a late developer in football.

Regardless, I don't think our midfield was overrun against Arsenal, certainly the midfield offered superb protection during the obvious early onslaught from Arsenal, then ended up taking control of midfield for the rest of the half.

It was overrun after the goal with the subs made and it was starting to struggle in the minutes preceding the goal.

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1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

I didn't put them up to show he played well. They are only passing stats and all they show is that he didn't continually give the ball away. Those misplaced passes you highlighted were not his weakness. 

I don't think he will ever be first choice out of the squad for any position. But Farke picked him Saturday from the players he felt were in contention. He certainly didn't let us down and will be unlucky not to play next week. I don't think he will play though. But he appears to have the character to not let disappointment affect his performance next time he's picked.

He's an asset.

It doesn't show he didn't give the ball away, it shows he was 7th best out of the starters and had zero key passes 🤷‍♂️

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I'd happily play Rupp against arsenal/Leicester etc as he's a clever player who recycles possession well and makes good decisions. But the likes of Watford will murder him and he'll give the ball away when they press us because he's just not strong or quick enough to compete with the type of midfield he'll have to deal with on Saturday.  

I'm not one of those fans who hate Rupp, even though I question the logic of signing him, but we're in the most physical, athletic league in the world, it's almost shifted to being like the NFL where you have to be over 6ft and an incredible athlete at a minimum before we even consider footballing ability and he just gets dominated at this level when teams try to win the midfield battle against us. 

 

10 years ago he would have been a perfectly adequate lower PL level player who would probably start regularly for his team, now he's just not physical enough unfortunately. i don't like it either but it's the way things are going in the survive at all costs to keep the money rolling in culture that permeates the bottom half of this division. 

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44 minutes ago, king canary said:

Diving into his stats so far this season paints the picture of Rupp as a bit of a 'nothing' player.

As NN already highlighted he actually completes most of his passes. However so far this season he's averaging 0.4 key passes (ie passes that lead to a chance) per 90 minutes and is only attempting 2.4 'long balls' per 90 minutes, which suggests he's playing lots of very safe short balls that don't hugely go anywhere. I know we're not a long ball team so I'm not saying he should be playing loads of long balls but compared to other midfielders (Lees-Melou averages 4 per 90 minutes, Gilmour averages 6 per 90) suggests he's playing it even safer than most in this system.

On the defensive side he's making less tackles per 90 (1.2) than anyone else in his position and getting dribbled past more than any comparable players. Where he has been doing well (comparably at least) is interceptions (1.2pg) and his pass completion. But to me, the overall picture is a hard working player but one who isn't actually giving us much in either an attacking or defensive sense at the moment. 

Fits with my perception of him when playing. Neat and tidy, and keeps things ticking over but not got the physical presence we really need in there. 

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1 hour ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

 

I'm not one of those fans who hate Rupp, 

Can I just state for the record I don't hate Rupp, I just don't rate him as being anywhere close to being good enough. Hes been here 2 1/2 years and I still don't know what his qualities are, what he brings, what type of midfielder is he? 

At best he's a lower Championship/Bundesliga II player who should have been moved on with the likes of Steipermann etc.... 

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It may seem like that long Ken, but he actually came here in Jan 2020. We've had very few opportunities to watch him play apart from tv.

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45 minutes ago, Ken Hairy said:

Can I just state for the record I don't hate Rupp, I just don't rate him as being anywhere close to being good enough. Hes been here 2 1/2 years and I still don't know what his qualities are, what he brings, what type of midfielder is he? 

At best he's a lower Championship/Bundesliga II player who should have been moved on with the likes of Steipermann etc.... 

I think that is a harsh assessment. He isn't anything special for sure but I think his role in that he's neat, tidy, hard working and versatile. In the Championship I think he can be a starter (we did look good with him next to Skipp for a period) as a central midfielder, at this level he's a squad player who fills in when injuries hit or you bring in to shore up a game you're winning late on. What he isn't, in my opinion, is a regular starter at this level. 

Edited by king canary
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20 minutes ago, king canary said:

I think that is a harsh assessment. He isn't anything special for sure but I think his role in that he's neat, tidy, hard working and versatile. In the Championship I think he can be a starter (we did look good with him next to Skipp for a period) as a central midfielder, at this level he's a squad player who fills in when injuries hit or you bring in to shore up a game you're winning late on. What he isn't, in my opinion, is a regular starter at this level. 

So my assessment is harsh, and you go on to describe him pretty much as I have.... 🤔

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I'm not a fan of Rupp. IMO he doesn't add anything to the team, or improve the team. But I guess what Farke likes about him is his versatility, and level of work he puts in. He doesn't stand out, but puts in a good shift, without looking impressive.

My frustration is that if others don't put in a good shift Farke drops them, yet Rupp seems to get a starting spot most games, wherever Farke can fit him in.

I've never really known what Rupp's best position is, but we trust in Farke whether we win, lose or draw. He sees more than I do   

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4 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

It was overrun after the goal with the subs made and it was starting to struggle in the minutes preceding the goal.

Yeah I wouldn't disagree with that. But considering the initial selection followed a lot on here claiming Farke had lost the plot, that same initial midfield controlled the game until they tired.

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1 hour ago, Ken Hairy said:

So my assessment is harsh, and you go on to describe him pretty much as I have.... 🤔

Not really. You described him as a lower Championship player at best, I believe he's a useful squad player at this level and a solid starter in the league below. 

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16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not really. You described him as a lower Championship player at best, I believe he's a useful squad player at this level and a solid starter in the league below. 

You've changed from can be a starter in the Championship to solid starter 🤷‍♂️

Either way harsh or not, that's my assessment of him in the time he's been here, and we'll be in trouble if he's regularly used at this level. Everyone fit he shouldn't be in the match day 20.

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Rupp is a solid, reliable player on both sides of the ball, but will be behind Normann, Lees-Melou, McLean and Gilmour in selection. Had Normann had more time in training and proved his fitness, he would have started at the Emirates. Gilmour didn't play because DF thought he had too many minutes with Scotland. In future, they will both be ahead of Rupp.

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Just asking a hypothetical question here and be honest with yourselves please.

 

We're playing out from the back, the ball goes to Rupp, he turns away but Sarr, Sema or Pedro out muscles him and drives at us on the counter, there is contact, but most people consider it a Watford player being too strong for him, what would the decision be?

 

Now ask yourself the same question but it's the other way around, Pukki or Rashica gets a bit physical with a Watford defender who is p155ing around with it out from the back, there is contact though, the Watford player goes over and we break forward, what will the decision be?

Be honest with yourselves how would those 2 scenario's  play out in terms of decisions?

That's why I don't think we can afford to accommodate Rupp at this level, he's too easily bullied and officials will turn a blind eye so long as the team that is supposed to win gets the rub of the green. If we had more physical players it would make it harder for a ref, but Rupp is a corrupt officials dream, he's so easy to dispossess that you can always argue it was a fair challenege. unless it was the other way around of course, but nobody cares about that, because we're only Norwich

Edited by Christoph Stiepermann

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On 12/09/2021 at 10:44, Ken Hairy said:

If we carry on with Rupp we're getting relegated, simple as. The lad is simply nowhere near good enough for even the Championship let alone this level. 

I'd actually rather we'd have kept Trybull than Rupp. 

Then you are a bit simple 

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22 minutes ago, Yobocop said:

Then you are a bit simple 

Rupp walks into most Championship sides as his pedigree kind of shows. I dont think with the players we have he should be starting every match in the prem but he won't be, so hardly see what the problem is.

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