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Yellow Fever

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My mistake, I misheard the radio. I thought they were getting rid of it to help pay for social care. (It's actually to pay off Coffey's tuck wagon bill.ūüėČ)

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55 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

 So if not now, then when would be a better time? Politicians can't stop behaving like politicians with a short term mentality.

Probably about the same time that partisan voters stopped acting like partisan voters.ūüėČ

Looks like Labour and Lib Dem voters complaining about a policy they supported from a government they dislike.

11th January 2017, "Would you support or oppose increasing the basic rate of employees national insurance from 12% to 13% and using the money raised to increase spending on the NHS?"

CON: 55% support /28% oppose (+27)
LAB: 60% support /22% oppose (+38)
LD: 67% support / 23% oppose (+44)
TOTAL: 53% support / 26% oppose (+27)

20 July 2021, same question:

CON: 64% support / 23% oppose (+41)
LAB: 60% support / 25% oppose (+35)
LD: 68% support / 22% oppose (+46)
TOTAL: 57% support / 25% oppose (+35)

7 September 2021, "The government has announced a rise of 1.25% on National Insurance, which it says will go towards paying for the NHS and social care. Do you support or oppose this rise?"

CON: 59% support / 35% oppose (+24)
LAB: 33% support / 55% oppose (-22)
LD: 50% support / 46% oppose (+4)
TOTAL: 44% support / 43% oppose (+1)

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20 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Probably about the same time that partisan voters stopped acting like partisan voters.ūüėČ

Looks like Labour and Lib Dem voters complaining about a policy they supported from a government they dislike.

11th January 2017, "Would you support or oppose increasing the basic rate of employees national insurance from 12% to 13% and using the money raised to increase spending on the NHS?"

CON: 55% support /28% oppose (+27)
LAB: 60% support /22% oppose (+38)
LD: 67% support / 23% oppose (+44)
TOTAL: 53% support / 26% oppose (+27)

20 July 2021, same question:

CON: 64% support / 23% oppose (+41)
LAB: 60% support / 25% oppose (+35)
LD: 68% support / 22% oppose (+46)
TOTAL: 57% support / 25% oppose (+35)

7 September 2021, "The government has announced a rise of 1.25% on National Insurance, which it says will go towards paying for the NHS and social care. Do you support or oppose this rise?"

CON: 59% support / 35% oppose (+24)
LAB: 33% support / 55% oppose (-22)
LD: 50% support / 46% oppose (+4)
TOTAL: 44% support / 43% oppose (+1)

Two different questions  - 2017 is simply NHS only and I guess all still support this.

Question 2 today includes Social Care (except the actual policy described does very little except protect some of the inheritances of the well healed - largely southerners). So it's perfectly possible to support the first 'poll'  but to oppose the 2nd in it's inept and disingenuous implementation. Indeed Johnson's policy of today is entirely set up it seems to mislead as ever! It doesn't do what it says on the tin any time soon.

Edited by Yellow Fever
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1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

Two different questions  - 2017 is simply NHS only and I guess all still support this.

Question 2 today includes Social Care (except the actual policy does very little except protect some of the inheritances of the well healed - largely southerners). So it's perfectly possible to support the first 'poll'  but to oppose the 2nd in it's inept and disingenuous implementation. Indeed Johnson's policy of today is entirely set up it seems to mislead as ever! It doesn't do what it says on the tin any time soon.

Exactly. This is just another one of Johnson's trying to be popular stunts. Until Social Care is totally divorced from the NHS and treated differently, then its just numbers. One is an assurance, the other an insurance.

Social Care needs to be administered publicly and not by for profit companies for a start.

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The sound of nits being picked.

Hardly. They are two totally separate issues and yet another Government has parcelled it into health. It isn't just a health issue.

Until any Government treats it as an entity in its own right, it will never be right.

National Insurance rises should cover the NHS but Social Care needs separate not added on funding.

Edited by keelansgrandad

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32 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The sound of nits being picked.

It's in the details. It's not really a fix to social care. I'm more than happy to pay more in tax for this but it has to be sensibly approached. This isn't.

 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Probably about the same time that partisan voters stopped acting like partisan voters.ūüėČ

Looks like Labour and Lib Dem voters complaining about a policy they supported from a government they dislike

The shadow of brexit is long...

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19 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

The shadow of brexit is long...

Sadly the same **** that promised you £350 million a week and no tax rises are now raising tax to cover up the fact there's no £350 million a week and none of you seem to give a damn.

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59 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's in the details. It's not really a fix to social care. I'm more than happy to pay more in tax for this but it has to be sensibly approached. This isn't.

 

Exactly Herman. Sell it as a fix for the NHS but it does very little apart from protect a luckier wealthier few from the worst costs of Care homes. As a 'a fix' for Social Care its just a non starter.

Most sensible Tories can see this too....

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13 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Exactly Herman. Sell it as a fix for the NHS but it does very little apart from protect a luckier wealthier few from the worst costs of Care homes. As a 'a fix' for Social Care its just a non starter.

Most sensible Tories can see this too....

Problem with that analysis is the figures you quoted yourself disagree with it.

Of the 36 billion it raises 'only' 2.5 billion is for the purpose you allege but 31 billion goes towards the NHS, the organisation you say will not benefit as much as suggested. 

Personally I don't mind paying a bit more tax for better public services and don't find it morally problematic that full costs do not fall on those with the most acute needs. I probably should be surprised by the people voicing objections  but I think ricardo called it correctly.

I don’t think this is or should be the final word on social care but if some of you in bere were honest  with yourselves you would say that if this came from anyone else but this government you would support the general principle.

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Problem with that analysis is the figures you quoted yourself disagree with it.

Of the 36 billion it raises 'only' 2.5 billion is for the purpose you allege but 31 billion goes towards the NHS, the organisation you say will not benefit as much as suggested. 

Personally I don't mind paying a bit more tax for better public services and don't find it morally problematic that full costs do not fall on those with the most acute needs. I probably should be surprised by the people voicing objections  but I think ricardo called it correctly.

I don’t think this is or should be the final word on social care but if some of you in bere were honest  with yourselves you would say that if this came from anyone else but this government you would support the general principle.

 

 

 

You've misread what I said  but for clarity  - it's sold or was sold as a fix for Social Care. its not,  it's a fix for the NHS. 

Yes the shadow of Brexit is very long. You and Ricardo see everything through that prism it seems. Nobody else made that linkage but criticized the Johnson plan on it own merits or lack of. 

The rest of us think its good for the NHS and support the tax rise - but as a fix for Social Care and who pays - you're kidding right ? 

Suggest you start paying £1000/week right now for a care home and then see if you think it's fixed. 

Ought to add Johnson now has to 'bounce' his own Tory MPs into voting for it tomorrow before as in any sensible democracy they have chance to study and ponder it. What's to fear if it's good by a bit of thoughtful analysis. Reminds me of an earlier oven ready Johnson fiasco that he now wants to unwind. You'd have thought the Tories would have learnt by now but apparently not..... 

Edited by Yellow Fever
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So RTB, that’s a great reason to force a vote then, without MP’s having the opportunity of a proper debate? 

Edited by Surfer

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13 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

You've misread what I said  but for clarity  - it's sold or was sold as a fix for Social Care. its not,  it's a fix for the NHS. 

Yes the shadow of Brexit is very long. You and Ricardo see everything through that prism it seems. Nobody else made that linkage but criticized the Johnson plan on it own merits or lack of. 

The rest of us think its good for the NHS and support the tax rise - but as a fix for Social Care and who pays - you're kidding right ? 

Suggest you start paying £1000/week right now for a care home and then see if you think it's fixed. 

Ought to add Johnson now has to 'bounce' his own Tory MPs into voting for it tomorrow before as in any sensible democracy they have chance to study and ponder it. What's to fear if it's good by a bit of thoughtful analysis. Reminds me of an earlier oven ready Johnson fiasco that he now wants to unwind. You'd have thought the Tories would have learnt by now but apparently not..... 

Perhaps its the brevity we use on here but I had read your message as saying that the policy was sold by by Tories as a measure to improve the NHS but in reality is just a measure to protect wealthy homeowners. Apologies if you were saying it 'should have been sold as a NHS fix as that is what it is'. 

For what it is worth I support the short term NHS funding element and think it is a good first step to a long term social care plan. Be interesting to see if the NHS funding is to capital projects only or goes into general budgets (never to be seen by social care)

The brexit comment was a bit cheeky but there is a definite element of  "it is a Boris policy so it's deeply flawed,   what is the policy?" about some comments on here from people you would assume would be natural supporters of the measure as actually articulated.  I think ricardo and I have a similar humour and so tend to point to the same sort of things.

 

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It would surely be churlish not to applaud a massive investment in the NHS, even if allegedly only short term.  As many commentators have said however, good luck trying to pull that money out again to direct it towards social care, the NHS is a sump for money and always has been. The best we can hope for is that more money eventually is directed towards better integrated services between the NHS and social care, I would guarantee however that any future changes will be met with demands for more cash.

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7 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Perhaps its the brevity we use on here but I had read your message as saying that the policy was sold by by Tories as a measure to improve the NHS but in reality is just a measure to protect wealthy homeowners. Apologies if you were saying it 'should have been sold as a NHS fix as that is what it is'. 

For what it is worth I support the short term NHS funding element and think it is a good first step to a long term social care plan. Be interesting to see if the NHS funding is to capital projects only or goes into general budgets (never to be seen by social care)

The brexit comment was a bit cheeky but there is a definite element of  "it is a Boris policy so it's deeply flawed,   what is the policy?" about some comments on here from people you would assume would be natural supporters of the measure as actually articulated.  I think ricardo and I have a similar humour and so tend to point to the same sort of things.

 

Accepted. Cheers.

But - I get really cross with those who want to be socialists when it suits them (please somebody else pay my social care) but never want to properly contribute. Us boomer generation are the worst for this. Our parents/grandparents may have been the 'Greatest' generation but we really are in danger of forever being the 'Selfish' one. For what its worth yes I want a 'Social Care Service' set up and properly funded - like the NHS - and in addition an insurance policy to safeguard (some) assets when you retire (70..75) - say £30 -50K one off payment to to give you £300K care budget. Place the floor otherwise at £20,000.

As to Johnson - this policy for Social Care is already unravelling quickly  - ignoring the obvious intergenerational funding inequalities one of the most pressing NHS issues today is bed blocking. How does more money, likely mythical, for social care in 3 years time (and then not much) help ?

It is a miss-sold, misrepresented and mythical policy as ever from Johnson. He has form for this.

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15 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Problem with that analysis is the figures you quoted yourself disagree with it.

Of the 36 billion it raises 'only' 2.5 billion is for the purpose you allege but 31 billion goes towards the NHS, the organisation you say will not benefit as much as suggested. 

Personally I don't mind paying a bit more tax for better public services and don't find it morally problematic that full costs do not fall on those with the most acute needs. I probably should be surprised by the people voicing objections  but I think ricardo called it correctly.

I don’t think this is or should be the final word on social care but if some of you in bere were honest  with yourselves you would say that if this came from anyone else but this government you would support the general principle.

 

 

 

Problem is, many genuine people do not object to paying more for a better health system.

At the same time there are many wealthy disingenuous people who are simply trying to avoid paying anything at all toward the cost of running the system.

 

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1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Accepted. Cheers.

But - I get really cross with those who want to be socialists when it suits them (please somebody else pay my social care) but never want to properly contribute. Us boomer generation are the worst for this. Our parents/grandparents may have been the 'Greatest' generation but we really are in danger of forever being the 'Selfish' one. For what its worth yes I want a 'Social Care Service' set up and properly funded - like the NHS - and in addition an insurance policy to safeguard (some) assets when you retire (70..75) - say £30 -50K one off payment to to give you £300K care budget. Place the floor otherwise at £20,000.

As to Johnson - this policy for Social Care is already unravelling quickly  - ignoring the obvious intergenerational funding inequalities one of the most pressing NHS issues today is bed blocking. How does more money, likely mythical, for social care in 3 years time (and then not much) help ?

It is a miss-sold, misrepresented and mythical policy as ever from Johnson. He has form for this.

I get a bit sick of this "selfish" nonsense, those of us who began working in the 1960's have certainly paid our share. When I Began working in 1962  basic rate tax was set at a much higher rate than is taken today. Even as a lowly paid apprentice I was paying income tax and if I recall correctly the basic rate when I started was 7/6d in the pound (35%). The principal was that everyone should pay something whereas today large sections pay no tax at all and even receive tax credits.

There are undoubtedly a number of well off pensioners with incomes of 30-50k who could contribute more but the large majority of retired people do not sail in that boat unfortunately.

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54 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I get a bit sick of this "selfish" nonsense, those of us who began working in the 1960's have certainly paid our share. When I Began working in 1962  basic rate tax was set at a much higher rate than is taken today. Even as a lowly paid apprentice I was paying income tax and if I recall correctly the basic rate when I started was 7/6d in the pound (35%). The principal was that everyone should pay something whereas today large sections pay no tax at all and even receive tax credits.

There are undoubtedly a number of well off pensioners with incomes of 30-50k who could contribute more but the large majority of retired people do not sail in that boat unfortunately.

Yes - we also had in no particular order good secure jobs, affordable housing (I bought my first, in London for 2.5 times salary (the max) and a 10% deposit saved up in 6 months) - even had tax relief on mortgages, married mans tax allowance, final salary pensions, later free University education albeit on much smaller numbers and on and on. Please don't give me interest rates at 15% (yes for about 1/2  day - I was in the US at time and knew I couldn't run at that on a newly purchased London property.). Indeed we were so relaxed that we became known as the sick man of Europe and eventually joined belatedly the then 'common market' which was was out performing us. Sadly what we also did was promise ourselves in ignorance 'cradle to grave' support even though we never grasped the huge increase in life expectancy, the medical costs and now the social care costs that would follow - even when the actuarial alarm bells started ringing in the 70s. We preferred tax cuts, rampant house prices and well tomorrow is another day.

Of course many didn't do as well as others, but the belated corrections to pensions (which became unaffordable) and now social care we do bear responsibility for - we've had the party and now follows the hangover.

If Johnson simply said  - place say 2% on income tax (which all with income would pay as opposed to NI (which the Tory's call a Jobs tax) and a contrived no doubt expensive to collect new tax) then we'd all be in this together. He didn't and we aren't.

 

Edited by Yellow Fever
Did anybody else here on Sky news see last night a reviewer claim (which wasn't challenged by a Tory) that as a generation we'd had about £289K (from memory - that sort of number) on average out than in per head! No doubt it included benefits in kind.
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How much of the money will actually find its way into the NHS or social care...and look, we've now got an additional revenue stream we can bump up a little every time the trough needs to be refilled.¬†ūüź∑¬†ūüé©

Trebles all round.¬†ūü•ā

Apples

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50 minutes ago, Mr Apples said:

How much of the money will actually find its way into the NHS or social care...and look, we've now got an additional revenue stream we can bump up a little every time the trough needs to be refilled.¬†ūüź∑¬†ūüé©

Trebles all round.¬†ūü•ā

Apples

Yep! Private Eye's pages will fill up with more and more stories of NHS contracts being awarded to Tory donors and chums who no doubt are already busy on WhatsApp contacting their pals in government.

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5 hours ago, Van wink said:

It would surely be churlish not to applaud a massive investment in the NHS, even if allegedly only short term.  As many commentators have said however, good luck trying to pull that money out again to direct it towards social care, the NHS is a sump for money and always has been. The best we can hope for is that more money eventually is directed towards better integrated services between the NHS and social care, I would guarantee however that any future changes will be met with demands for more cash.

This is rather a neat summary of the proposals - as well as the questions that get more to the detail of the problem. As stated many of those questions look very thorny.

 

https://www.theweek.co.uk/news/uk-news/954065/social-care-the-unanswered-questions?_mout=1&refid=3392DB44574C82E123A3670DEF27EC73&utm_campaign=theweekdaily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

 

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Voters dislike most forms of taxation that will affect themselves..

Who'd have guessed.

Image

 

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25 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Voters dislike most forms of taxation that will affect themselves..

Who'd have guessed.

Image

 

Bit of a daft poll. Nobody knows what is the best way. The Government have chosen a system which to many is wrong because it is capped at such a low figure.

I worked it out that bloke fitting my new kitchen is on at least £80K a year if his bill for me is normal.

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11 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Bit of a daft poll. Nobody knows what is the best way. The Government have chosen a system which to many is wrong because it is capped at such a low figure.

I worked it out that bloke fitting my new kitchen is on at least £80K a year if his bill for me is normal.

Bit expensive just for a new draining board and a mangle.

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Will care workers now get a pay rise to cover the tax increase? 

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